[McLovin]

QuickTidal, on 11 June 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Question: Does everyone complaining about the scientists actions really think that all scientists behave perfectly, and make all the right decisions 24/7?

Of course not.

But this crew was wall-to-wall morons.

They did not have the slightest respect for the gravity of their mission or the potential dangers of the environment.

Is this the best Earth can send into a potential first contact mission? Maybe the Engineers' desire to wipe us out was justified.

[McLovin]

Morgoth, on 11 June 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

As for the geologist and the biologist running away when they initially discovered the dead Engineer. That I can fully sympathise with. I can't say I would have acted much different had I been in their shoes.

True, but remember at this point they were making 3D digital maps of the base. How the fuck could they have gotten lost going back the way they came? Morons!

[Morgoth]

McLovin, on 11 June 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Morgoth, on 11 June 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

As for the geologist and the biologist running away when they initially discovered the dead Engineer. That I can fully sympathise with. I can't say I would have acted much different had I been in their shoes.

True, but remember at this point they were making 3D digital maps of the base. How the fuck could they have gotten lost going back the way they came? Morons!

And not asking the bridge to tell them where to go.

[QuickTidal]

McLovin, on 11 June 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Is this the best Earth can send into a potential first contact mission? Maybe the Engineers' desire to wipe us out was justified.

You are mixing up a mission created and staffed by the government with what Prometheus was. Prometheus was created, staffed and paid for by Weyland Corp, a corporation...run by a madman. So yeah, this is indeed what they came up with. What self respecting scientist would have been ten feet from a space mission run by a "corporation"?

So no, it's not the best that "earth" could offer by far, it's the best that Peter Weyland could cobble together. And that's a different beast altogether. This is up to and including bringing along two archeologists who don't really NEED to be there since their discovery kind of ended with the matched pictograms on earth...why bring them? Peter Weyland. Hubris.

What does he get? wall to wall idiots. yeppers.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 11 June 2012 - 03:48 PM

[blackzoid]

The film lost me the moment the "scientists" decided to follow the arceologist's guys idea of taking off his helmet. That......was......incomprehensible to me. Its an alien fucking planet. Say it again, its an alien planet. No, never mind scientists, common fucking sense says you don't open your helmets on an alien planet. Then I started comparing the film unfavourably to the first AVP. Vickers as the voice of reason (reason as compared to everyone elses utter stupidity. Yes you have to kill infected crew. Sorry but Ripley was right in the first film too) was the film's saving grace. That and the robot's scene at the start.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 11 June 2012 - 04:12 PM

[Mezla PigDog]

QuickTidal, on 11 June 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

McLovin, on 11 June 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Is this the best Earth can send into a potential first contact mission? Maybe the Engineers' desire to wipe us out was justified.

You are mixing up a mission created and staffed by the government with what Prometheus was. Prometheus was created, staffed and paid for by Weyland Corp, a corporation...run by a madman. So yeah, this is indeed what they came up with. What self respecting scientist would have been ten feet from a space mission run by a "corporation"?

So no, it's not the best that "earth" could offer by far, it's the best that Peter Weyland could cobble together. And that's a different beast altogether. This is up to and including bringing along two archeologists who don't really NEED to be there since their discovery kind of ended with the matched pictograms on earth...why bring them? Peter Weyland. Hubris.

What does he get? wall to wall idiots. yeppers.

Doesn't Vickers say the Prometheus cost a few trillion $$? Weyland then puts it in the hands of wall to wall idiots without a strict mission protocol or chain of command and a horny captain? It doesn't quite make business sense but if the plot is that we're supposed to believe the whole Alien fuck up from start to end is caused by poor business sense...... Well, my experience of big business can actually get on board with that one! The potential extinction of human kind at the hands of alien killing machines caused by poor planning? Figures!

[QuickTidal]

I don't understand everyone's issue with the helmets. Yes, it was a stupid move to take it off (Holloway that is), but the suit readings and the ship readings and even David said that there was a breathable atmosphere. So the rest following suit would have been fine in my books. They aren't wearing the suits for any other reason than no-atmosphere...so if it is established that there IS an atmosphere, and one idiot took off his helmet and proved it I fail to see why it would be a mistake for the rest to follow suit?

It clearly didn't bother me that they removed their helmets.

[McLovin]

QuickTidal, on 11 June 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

So no, it's not the best that "earth" could offer by far, it's the best that Peter Weyland could cobble together. And that's a different beast altogether.

Weyland didn't get where he was by being too stupid to live. He would have made sure ONLY the best and brightest accompanied him on that mission. He knew his clock was about to run out, so he would have hedged against failure by not bringing along a bunch of sociopathic fuck-ups.

And lots of reputable scientists do corporate-funded research, here and now. So Weyland would have had no shortage of candidates to choose from.

[McLovin]

QuickTidal, on 11 June 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

so if it is established that there IS an atmosphere, and one idiot took off his helmet and proved it I fail to see why it would be a mistake for the rest to follow suit?

Because breathable ~= pathogen-free.

[blackzoid]

QuickTidal, on 11 June 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

I don't understand everyone's issue with the helmets. Yes, it was a stupid move to take it off (Holloway that is), but the suit readings and the ship readings and even David said that there was a breathable atmosphere. So the rest following suit would have been fine in my books. They aren't wearing the suits for any other reason than no-atmosphere...so if it is established that there IS an atmosphere, and one idiot took off his helmet and proved it I fail to see why it would be a mistake for the rest to follow suit?

It clearly didn't bother me that they removed their helmets.

Huh?

Eh...alien microbe contamination! Disease!

Thats the entire problem. Not created by the Engineers, not scary monsters, just simple common microbes.
Native American's suffered massively becasue of disease's they were not used to and an Alien planet that just happens to have oxygen is also not going to have anything at all that humans can't handle? No. Just no. Fear of the unknown is why you keep your helmet on!

[QuickTidal]

McLovin, on 11 June 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 11 June 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

So no, it's not the best that "earth" could offer by far, it's the best that Peter Weyland could cobble together. And that's a different beast altogether.

Weyland didn't get where he was by being too stupid to live. He would have made sure ONLY the best and brightest accompanied him on that mission. He knew his clock was about to run out, so he would have hedged against failure by not bringing along a bunch of sociopathic fuck-ups.

And lots of reputable scientists do corporate-funded research, here and now. So Weyland would have had no shortage of candidates to choose from.

Disagree. There was no scientific reason to bring along the two archeologists (other than Weyland's hubris and superstition) whose sole claim to fame was discovering the link between the pictograms, there was no reason to bring along his daughter (since she was against the entire thing anyways, other than to PROVE to her that he was "right" about the engineers...again hubris). He was staffing the mission with those he could get and brought along those he WANTED to as well. Next to NO ONE likes "the company" and that they were the forerunners of AI makes them even more disliked by humanity who clearly thinks little of robots like David. Had he wanted to, he could have sent 5 copies of David instead of humans at all. Every one of them could have done the jobs of the humans 100 time better and more efficiently. But he didn't. He sent humans. He's a broken man and he was a scientist succumbing to a "faith" mind in his old age looking for our progenitors...This is not the type of man who could herald the best and brightest at all. The geologist was a pot-smoking, chicken shit stoner...I'd wager there are more dedicated and better geologists on the planet to have used...no, these weren't the best and brightest at all. At least that's not how I saw it. I saw this as cobbled together at best...which is why they don't cohese as a crew at all. I think the only person who really knew their job beyond David was the Captain and his pilots.

[Aptorian]

It's not just the fact that they all, every single one, just take off their helmets. It is what it says about them and the manuscript. A lack of commitment to hard sci-fi. An unwillingness to take the situation seriously. It makes the characters dumber than I can accept when I am watching a movie about professional scientists.

It is also one of my pet peeves about general Hollywood production. Soldiers run into battle with out head protection and super heroes constantly remove their masks. It's like there's some stipulation that states that "Super star actor must have x amount of face time". Maybe there is some study that shows that the average blockhead watching a movie has an easier time keeping track of individual characters and can better identify with the character if they can see their faces. I don't know. BUT IT IS FUCKING STUPID. It rips me right out of the moment and has me irritated for the rest of the movie.

EDIT: Oh god here comes the Spiderman 3 flashbacks. OH fuck that movie and fucking emo Tobey Maguire constantly taking his mask off every other scene. Spiderman 3 broke my heart.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 11 June 2012 - 04:56 PM

[QuickTidal]

blackzoid, on 11 June 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 11 June 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

I don't understand everyone's issue with the helmets. Yes, it was a stupid move to take it off (Holloway that is), but the suit readings and the ship readings and even David said that there was a breathable atmosphere. So the rest following suit would have been fine in my books. They aren't wearing the suits for any other reason than no-atmosphere...so if it is established that there IS an atmosphere, and one idiot took off his helmet and proved it I fail to see why it would be a mistake for the rest to follow suit?

It clearly didn't bother me that they removed their helmets.

Huh?

Eh...alien microbe contamination! Disease!

Thats the entire problem. Not created by the Engineers, not scary monsters, just simple common microbes.
Native American's suffered massively becasue of disease's they were not used to and an Alien planet that just happens to have oxygen is also not going to have anything at all that humans can't handle? No. Just no. Fear of the unknown is why you keep your helmet on!

Fair enough point. But to be honest, if the android on board and the systems that measure all that stuff says it's okay...then I don't see the issue. If those systems aren't in place to monitor the air for that stuff, then why are they there?

I mean one could argue that the systems aren't designed to detect things that are alien like microbes...but that is no worse than stepping off the craft in a suit and being cut to ribbons by alien planet wind patterns we know nothing about as well. At a certain point it's ALL moot, your stepping onto an alien planet...that in itself could be considered a stupid idea...let alone the helmet which may or may not protect you from these things. I mean whose to say human created suits would keep alien microbes OUT? Couldn't alien microbes defeat our human clothing tech and seep in? I don't see why not. You see where this devolves into silly levels. It's kind of nitpicking when you consider it.

You're on an alien world. Anything can happen. Your helmet being off and being attacked by alien germs is the least of them. Clearly that was the case.

When it comes to Prometheus, stupid was the biologist reaching out to the snake vagina like it was a kitty kat...THAT was dumb. LOL

[QuickTidal]

Aptorius, on 11 June 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

It's not just the fact that they all, every single one, just take off their helmets. It is what it says about them and the manuscript. A lack of commitment to hard sci-fi. An unwillingness to take the situation seriously. It makes the characters dumber than I can accept when I am watching a movie about professional scientists.

They all give Holloway shit for it and then wait to see the outcome. How is that a lack of commitment? It's written in the script that it was a dumb idea, they all thought so...but after he did it so did they. Meh. Nitpicking. The script is tight sir. Tight I say!

Quote

It is also one of my pet peeves about general Hollywood production. Soldiers run into battle with out head protection and super heroes constantly remove their masks. It's like there's some stipulation that states that "Super star actor must have x amount of face time". Maybe there is some study that shows that the average blockhead watching a movie has an easier time keeping track of individual characters and can better identify with the character if they can see their faces. I don't know. BUT IT IS FUCKING STUPID. It rips me right out of the moment and has me irritated for the rest of the movie.

Apt, I don't think you should be watching Hollywood movies bro. This kind of stuff will never stop happening. It's just how it is, you either accept it and move on or don't watch the films expecting it to change. Cause it won't. Do I need to drop that link again to the article about being able to suspend disbelief in fiction and enjoy the story?



Oh Apt, you should write a book about your best and worst movies. It will be the most fucked up, polarizing non-fiction book concerning movies EVER! And it would be a damned bestseller! Do it sir. Do it!

[Aptorian]

QuickTidal, on 11 June 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

I mean one could argue that the systems aren't designed to detect things that are alien like microbes...but that is no worse than stepping off the craft in a suit and being cut to ribbons by alien planet wind patterns we know nothing about as well. At a certain point it's ALL moot, your stepping onto an alien planet...that in itself could be considered a stupid idea...let alone the helmet which may or may not protect you from these things. I mean whose to say human created suits would keep alien microbes OUT? Couldn't alien microbes defeat our human clothing tech and seep in? I don't see why not. You see where this devolves into silly levels. It's kind of nitpicking when you consider it.

Again. That is the problem. What should have happened is that they arrive. Then the ship sends down dozens and dozens of different types of probes that spend a week analyzing the atmosphere's different layers. It monitors weather patterns. Climates. It studies the sun. It takes soil samples. It dives into the sea. THEN, and only THEN, they send an away team down to earth from their orbit around the planet. Not a lot of people just a crack team of astro-marines that have specialized in asteroid recognizance, moon landings, mars vacations, etc. They, not a bunch of stupid scientists, are sent to the man made structure. They report back to the nerds back on the mothership in orbit. They find something and send it back up. THAT is when crazy shit starts happening. Both in orbit and on land. Ship crash lands. More crazy shit happens. Much, much less idiotic. Bit more boring perhaps. I don't care.

[Morgoth]

Aptorius, on 11 June 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 11 June 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

I mean one could argue that the systems aren't designed to detect things that are alien like microbes...but that is no worse than stepping off the craft in a suit and being cut to ribbons by alien planet wind patterns we know nothing about as well. At a certain point it's ALL moot, your stepping onto an alien planet...that in itself could be considered a stupid idea...let alone the helmet which may or may not protect you from these things. I mean whose to say human created suits would keep alien microbes OUT? Couldn't alien microbes defeat our human clothing tech and seep in? I don't see why not. You see where this devolves into silly levels. It's kind of nitpicking when you consider it.

Again. That is the problem. What should have happened is that they arrive. Then the ship sends down dozens and dozens of different types of probes that spend a week analyzing the atmosphere's different layers. It monitors weather patterns. Climates. It studies the sun. It takes soil samples. It dives into the sea. THEN, and only THEN, they send an away team down to earth from their orbit around the planet. Not a lot of people just a crack team of astro-marines that have specialized in asteroid recognizance, moon landings, mars vacations, etc. They, not a bunch of stupid scientists, are sent to the man made structure. They report back to the nerds back on the mothership in orbit. They find something and send it back up. THAT is when crazy shit starts happening. Both in orbit and on land. Ship crash lands. More crazy shit happens. Much, much less idiotic. Bit more boring perhaps. I don't care.

With that plot we could've gotten suspense and character development too.

[Aptorian]

QuickTidal, on 11 June 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

Aptorius, on 11 June 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

It's not just the fact that they all, every single one, just take off their helmets. It is what it says about them and the manuscript. A lack of commitment to hard sci-fi. An unwillingness to take the situation seriously. It makes the characters dumber than I can accept when I am watching a movie about professional scientists.

They all give Holloway shit for it and then wait to see the outcome. How is that a lack of commitment? It's written in the script that it was a dumb idea, they all thought so...but after he did it so did they. Meh. Nitpicking. The script is tight sir. Tight I say!

This is like a bunch of seasoned wilderness experts going into the woods. One of them for shits and giggles eats a big juicy and colourful toadstool and doesn't die that very second. OH MUST BE PERFECTLY SAFE TO EAT THEN! LETS DINE IN HELL! YEEEEHAW I AM A COWBOY SCIENTIST AT A REDNECK ALIEN BBQ!

[QuickTidal]

Aptorius, on 11 June 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 11 June 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

I mean one could argue that the systems aren't designed to detect things that are alien like microbes...but that is no worse than stepping off the craft in a suit and being cut to ribbons by alien planet wind patterns we know nothing about as well. At a certain point it's ALL moot, your stepping onto an alien planet...that in itself could be considered a stupid idea...let alone the helmet which may or may not protect you from these things. I mean whose to say human created suits would keep alien microbes OUT? Couldn't alien microbes defeat our human clothing tech and seep in? I don't see why not. You see where this devolves into silly levels. It's kind of nitpicking when you consider it.

Again. That is the problem. What should have happened is that they arrive. Then the ship sends down dozens and dozens of different types of probes that spend a week analyzing the atmosphere's different layers. It monitors weather patterns. Climates. It studies the sun. It takes soil samples. It dives into the sea. THEN, and only THEN, they send an away team down to earth from their orbit around the planet. Not a lot of people just a crack team of astro-marines that have specialized in asteroid recognizance, moon landings, mars vacations, etc. They, not a bunch of stupid scientists, are sent to the man made structure. They report back to the nerds back on the mothership in orbit. They find something and send it back up. THAT is when crazy shit starts happening. Both in orbit and on land. Ship crash lands. More crazy shit happens. Much, much less idiotic. Bit more boring perhaps. I don't care.

Absolutely! This is what should happen, I wholeheartedly agree. Sadly, no one has the time to watch such things, so in the interest of story they stuff the science a bit to make it more compelling.

It's kind of like if you had a film about a space launch, and trip to the moon. As a basic premise it's cool-ish...but the reality of the science involved would make that movie boring as fuck for the general movie-going masses. REAL science is never as compelling (on the big screen mind you, not books)...for this reason you will never see something like an Alastair Reynolds book on the big screen, his books are huge to encompass all the real science and spend time to make it all fit in with an interesting story. You could not achieve that on the big screen without losing your audience. Movies are made to be 2 hours (ish) and fitting all the necessary stuff science-wise into PROMETHEUS would have taken way longer...they simply couldn't do that.

It's sad, and yeah we know the science isn't tickety-boo, but I'd never want it to be because realistic science tends to be boring in that format.

Quote

This is like a bunch of seasoned wilderness experts going into the woods. One of them for shits and giggles eats a big juicy and colourful toadstool and doesn't die that very second. OH MUST BE PERFECTLY SAFE TO EAT THEN! LETS DINE IN HELL! YEEEEHAW I AM A COWBOY SCIENTIST AT A REDNECK ALIEN BBQ!

Again, you seem to be assuming the helmet and suit protect them from stuff they can't see. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe the germs can leak through anyways.

Again, alien planet...EVERYTHING could kill you, suit or not.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 11 June 2012 - 05:15 PM

[blackzoid]

So theres no point in even trying to minimise the risk if everything could kill them? No point at all?
How do we know that the suits have not been used on other alien planets by competent scientists successfully?
Scientists who knew the bare basics of de-contamination procedures. This was probably not Earths first off-world mission. It wasn't portrayed as such to me anyway.

The "scientists" should have brought along a gun to play Russian roulette with too. In case they got bored. Though knowing them they probably would have bullets in all the chambers.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 11 June 2012 - 06:12 PM

[QuickTidal]

blackzoid, on 11 June 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

So theres no point in even trying to minimise the risk if everything could kill them? No point at all?
How do we know that the suits have not been used on other alien planets by competent scientists successfully?
Scientists who knew the bare basics of de-contamination procedures. This was probably not Earths first off-world mission. It wasn't portrayed as such to me anyway.

The "scientists" should have brought along a gun to play Russian roulette with too. In case they got bored. Though knowing them they probably would have bullets in all the chambers.

I think you are being extreme here. You have no way of knowing that the suits minimize risk. None whatsoever. To assume such is to assume that humans are the know-all beings of the universe and our scientists are the best the big bang has yet produced. Have they been to other worlds? Sure! Have they used these suits and they worked? Presumably. Does that mean they will work on this planet in a far-flung constellation? Who knows...not us, that's for sure. Just because they have been used successfully in the past does not mean it's a catch all preventative measure.

It's like the people that ride the subways with white paper masks on their faces for protection against illness, when in actuality they are doing two things wrong: They are making it easier for germs to attack them in the long run, and it's proven fact that touching surfaces that ill people have touched (and then not washing your hands) is FAR more likely to get your sick than breathing the air of someone near you who is ill. Abocve and beyond that my gf is in the health care industry and she says those masks people buy in bulk don't do jack anyways because the only masks that WILL work in any way against airborne stuff are ones that have been fitted to your specific face. No one does that. But that doesn't mean we are told they are useless. I see people with them all the time and during SARS they were seen everywhere in my city..but no one, not one of the doctors who worked at the hospitals told the masses that unless they were properly fitted they would not do anything for you.

You are presenting me the same principle. Because some people believe that those white masks are a help doesn't mean it is so. So because previous missions used these suits (or variations thereof) that means that this planet will present the same things? No. I'm saying that the choice to remove the helmet once it seemed okay to do so, while maybe not the brightest idea, is no less bright than going to the planet in the first place. I'm merely stating it's the same thing. The same risk. The suit/helmets not having been on LV 223 before means that NO ONE knows if it will be a help or a hindrance.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 11 June 2012 - 06:34 PM