[tiam]

What if we found out that the Judao Christian god was simply a slightly advanced form of life? The reaction would be justifiable. From an Imass perspective it may have seemed like the only way to ensure their freedom atleast when they were the only 2 dominant races. Raest for example needed other Jaghut to imprison him yet that might not be possible next time. Its reasonable from an Imass perspective though three hundred thousand years to dwell on it may change your views.

[Kanese S's]

Good point, Tiam.

Plus, there's the whole dynamic with them having formerly been enslaved by the tyrants. Oppression doesn't do great things for a people's idea of justice. Human history in real life is littered with horrific examples of appalling, vengeful slaughter when a people free themselves from oppression and there's no model for how justice should be done and decisions made. The French revolution is one example. I think most would agree that the situation at the time in the country was ridiculously unfair and horrible to the majority of the people, but things got way out of hand pretty fast. Real life humans quite easily blame an entire group for past wrongs, and that's just among different groups of humans.

For the Imass, it probably seemed like the only way, or at least the most certain way, to ensure that there would never again be a Jaghut Tyrant was to make sure there were no more Jaghut at all.

[tiam]

Kanese S, on 08 November 2011 - 10:29 AM, said:

Good point, Tiam.

Plus, there's the whole dynamic with them having formerly been enslaved by the tyrants. Oppression doesn't do great things for a people's idea of justice. Human history in real life is littered with horrific examples of appalling, vengeful slaughter when a people free themselves from oppression and there's no model for how justice should be done and decisions made. The French revolution is one example. I think most would agree that the situation at the time in the country was ridiculously unfair and horrible to the majority of the people, but things got way out of hand pretty fast. Real life humans quite easily blame an entire group for past wrongs, and that's just among different groups of humans.

For the Imass, it probably seemed like the only way, or at least the most certain way, to ensure that there would never again be a Jaghut Tyrant was to make sure there were no more Jaghut at all.

Its very difficult for us to use modern example because of the species variation between Imass and Jaghut.

It would be like if a small aboriginal/isolated tribe from the Amazon worshipped the white man in the 16th century or something. Not much difference in intelligence just some different inclinations and tendencies. If that tribe found out there god was fake they may try and exact revenge.

To take it to a ridiculous extreme: What if the Ewoks found out C3P0 wasnt really a god ?

[Abyss]

For sheer on-screen 'stick them with the pointy end' kills by a relative mortal not using magic or munitions, i still say Kalam.

Note that unlike most assassins we see, he's also been a soldier (yes he was WJ's squad assassin, but he was part of the squad even so) so he brings the benefits of assassin and soldier to the party.


If we debate ascendents/gods' kill counts then we would basically be arguing over who has killed the most civilizations over the longest number of millenia, and anyways at that point Wolverine Hood wins by default.

[amphibian]

Abyss, on 08 November 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

If we debate ascendents/gods' kill counts then we would basically be arguing over who has killed the most civilizations over the longest number of millenia, and anyways at that point Wolverine Hood wins by default.

I don't think so. Hood mobilized the Army of Death exactly once.

For the title of "destroying the most civilizations over the longest number of millennia" , that's probably the Errant's to keep.

For the most people murdered by hand, it's probably a toss-up between T'ool, Kallor and Draconus.

[Abyss]

amphibian, on 08 November 2011 - 08:23 PM, said:

Abyss, on 08 November 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

If we debate ascendents/gods' kill counts then we would basically be arguing over who has killed the most civilizations over the longest number of millenia, and anyways at that point Wolverine Hood wins by default.

I don't think so. Hood mobilized the Army of Death exactly once.

I was being semi-flippant in respect of him being the god of 'death'.

Quote

For the title of "destroying the most civilizations over the longest number of millennia" , that's probably the Errant's to keep.

Errant was a First Empire god who transposed to Leth, so at best he's got two Empires to his credit, and since we have no reason to think he was involved in the Shapeshifter ritual and the Letherii Empire continues under Tehol, not even that.

Quote

For the most people murdered by hand, it's probably a toss-up between T'ool, Kallor and Draconus.

Tool showed himself to be a fairly reluctant killer. Sure, he turned large swathes of Pannions into slaw in MoI, but so did Mok and bros at the same time. Otherwise 'on screen' we have him killing a few Barghast in GotM and DoD and that's about it unless we credit kills by people under his command.

Kallor has a tonne of personal kills no doubt. Ditto Draconus. And they both count ascendents and even dragons on those lists.


Therefore Wolverine wins.

[amphibian]

Abyss, on 08 November 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

Errant was a First Empire god who transposed to Leth, so at best he's got two Empires to his credit, and since we have no reason to think he was involved in the Shapeshifter ritual and the Letherii Empire continues under Tehol, not even that.

Oh shoot, I conflated the Errant with Sechul Lath/Knuckles. Switch that to Knuckles and then it makes more sense.

Quote

Tool showed himself to be a fairly reluctant killer. Sure, he turned large swathes of Pannions into slaw in MoI, but so did Mok and bros at the same time. Otherwise 'on screen' we have him killing a few Barghast in GotM and DoD and that's about it unless we credit kills by people under his command.

I was thinking more of the destruction of the First Empire and Aren, which had to happen several more times elsewhere within T'ool's history. As First Sword, he would have been at the forefront of those and probably doing a ton of the resistance-breaking slaughter of the early Malazan Empire.

[Kanese S's]

Plus, there's the ridiculous length of time he's been around. Even if he was reluctant to fight and kill, as a T'lan Imass, he would have had time to rack up quite the body count, especially as First Sword. Like Amphibian says, he wouldn't really be on the sidelines during the more bloody eras of Imass history.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 09 November 2011 - 12:01 AM

[Kanese S's]

tiam, on 08 November 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 08 November 2011 - 10:29 AM, said:

Good point, Tiam.

Plus, there's the whole dynamic with them having formerly been enslaved by the tyrants. Oppression doesn't do great things for a people's idea of justice. Human history in real life is littered with horrific examples of appalling, vengeful slaughter when a people free themselves from oppression and there's no model for how justice should be done and decisions made. The French revolution is one example. I think most would agree that the situation at the time in the country was ridiculously unfair and horrible to the majority of the people, but things got way out of hand pretty fast. Real life humans quite easily blame an entire group for past wrongs, and that's just among different groups of humans.

For the Imass, it probably seemed like the only way, or at least the most certain way, to ensure that there would never again be a Jaghut Tyrant was to make sure there were no more Jaghut at all.

Its very difficult for us to use modern example because of the species variation between Imass and Jaghut.

It would be like if a small aboriginal/isolated tribe from the Amazon worshipped the white man in the 16th century or something. Not much difference in intelligence just some different inclinations and tendencies. If that tribe found out there god was fake they may try and exact revenge.

To take it to a ridiculous extreme: What if the Ewoks found out C3P0 wasnt really a god ?

What I was getting at, is that when one group escapes oppression, even within the same species, without even really having the whole "false god" thing, we often get pretty absurd brutality. Imass and Jaghut aren't even the same species, so there's a whole lever of "Other" there, which I think would really exacerbate the reaction. It's a pretty natural tendency, that knee jerk reaction that if something wrongs/hurts/oppresses you, then everything of that kind is bad. Since we see it so much in the real world, just within one species, I don't think the Imass reaction to the Jaghut is really all that surprising, even if extreme.

C3P0 had the benefit of being rather benevolent, even if a false god.

[tiam]

Kanese S, on 09 November 2011 - 12:07 AM, said:

tiam, on 08 November 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 08 November 2011 - 10:29 AM, said:

Good point, Tiam.

Plus, there's the whole dynamic with them having formerly been enslaved by the tyrants. Oppression doesn't do great things for a people's idea of justice. Human history in real life is littered with horrific examples of appalling, vengeful slaughter when a people free themselves from oppression and there's no model for how justice should be done and decisions made. The French revolution is one example. I think most would agree that the situation at the time in the country was ridiculously unfair and horrible to the majority of the people, but things got way out of hand pretty fast. Real life humans quite easily blame an entire group for past wrongs, and that's just among different groups of humans.

For the Imass, it probably seemed like the only way, or at least the most certain way, to ensure that there would never again be a Jaghut Tyrant was to make sure there were no more Jaghut at all.

Its very difficult for us to use modern example because of the species variation between Imass and Jaghut.

It would be like if a small aboriginal/isolated tribe from the Amazon worshipped the white man in the 16th century or something. Not much difference in intelligence just some different inclinations and tendencies. If that tribe found out there god was fake they may try and exact revenge.

To take it to a ridiculous extreme: What if the Ewoks found out C3P0 wasnt really a god ?

What I was getting at, is that when one group escapes oppression, even within the same species, without even really having the whole "false god" thing, we often get pretty absurd brutality. Imass and Jaghut aren't even the same species, so there's a whole lever of "Other" there, which I think would really exacerbate the reaction. It's a pretty natural tendency, that knee jerk reaction that if something wrongs/hurts/oppresses you, then everything of that kind is bad. Since we see it so much in the real world, just within one species, I don't think the Imass reaction to the Jaghut is really all that surprising, even if extreme.

C3P0 had the benefit of being rather benevolent, even if a false god.

Yes I see your point. I think its in GOTM when Lorn is musing that the Jaghut would not have started the war and Tool simply states 'They are not us. We are not them.' which pretty much clear on a few things.

Fair play Tool gets some good lines in this series.

[Dolmen 2.0]

T'ool is what you'd get if you let Mok or dassem live for +- 8 millenia. (or any other seguleh for that matter.) This all brings me to the belief T'ool would be the highest hand to hand killer kind of the poster child for the homicidal imass race. Iccy would be a close second...where would the FA fit in on all this? Killing for religious beliefs is the greatest RL cause for mass death.

[wullagaru]

I would have to agree with abyss in the "on screen " kills count. I dont think anyone not using magic, munitions or godlieness/ascendency, beats out kalam

[jawron]

wullagaru, on 18 January 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

I dont think anyone not using magic, munitions or godlieness/ascendency, beats out kalam

Hi there, first post, please be gentle and don't kill me immediately Also, I'm reading right now Polish translation, therefore some translation mistakes may occur I will try my best not to make them.

I would say, that during his fight with Claw there were hints of his superior, almost inhuman, strenght, compared to other assasins. Besides, wasn't it during the time when Bridgeburners achieved ascendency?


Also, I would disagree with the possible kill count of T'lans, cause it was common for them to stay put for couple of centuries, apart from the fact, that their war with Jaghuts was aimed at the race of hermits.

This being said, for me Rake has the highest killing spree

Cheers