[tiam]

How many people do we think certain characters have killed?

For example Rake has got to have killed over a million people in fuelling Dragnipur and Kallor has to atleast have killed that many. But even a standard Imass might be close to that figure. Kallor, from the MOI prologue, has to only kill 5 people a year to have killed a million people. Probably a low figure for Kallor. An Tlan Imass needs just over 3 a year on average and we know they had certain periods of dust but also periods where 'the logros were forced to kill them in appalling droves'.

So an average ascendent might have killed over a million people through their wanderings and this makes sense. Lady Envy has 'crushed a few Empires in her time'. How many has Icarium killed?

But what about career soldiers, which was the main purpose of this thread. Even if you discount Moranth munitions Gesler, Stormy and Fiddler must be pushing a thousand each given that theyve been soldiers for over 20 years.

Anyway not a groundbreaking philosophical debate but something that came to when reading an article on the Roman Empire.

[Dolmen 2.0]

We Had a similar thread going during the thread crashes. On screen we agreed that Karsa racked the most epic kills but Potentially I'd say Rake Draconus Kallor make the top three? Perhaps Jaghut Tyrants were worse but as notable individual kills I'd definately seed Draconus and Rake as the Top kill counts.

[Kanubis]

I think it's between Kallor and Icarium. Even aside from Kallor's casual attitude to killing, he did pretty much wipe out an Empire just to annoy Draconus, K'rul and Nightchill.

Icarium might pip him just from his unfortunate habit of wiping out entire cities when he gets a bit miffed.

Rake has killed plenty, but never just for the hell of it.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Kanubis, on 12 September 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

I think it's between Kallor and Icarium. Even aside from Kallor's casual attitude to killing, he did pretty much wipe out an Empire just to annoy Draconus, K'rul and Nightchill.

Icarium might pip him just from his unfortunate habit of wiping out entire cities when he gets a bit miffed.

Rake has killed plenty, but never just for the hell of it.

Yeah I thought of Icarium aswell but I think the instances of mass destruction were rare. Rake killed entire armies of Andii during the Karkanas civil wars, He is REALLY old and if you look at the chained souls hinted at inside Dragnipur you'd have to think not only is he the killer of many, he is the killer of many killers of many. The scale of accomplishment is very uneven...

This post has been edited by Dolmen: 12 September 2011 - 11:02 AM

[Kanubis]

Don't forget that Draconus probably send a good portion of those souls to Dragnipur before Rake nicked the sword. He even bitches about Rake not killing enough in MoI.

[tiam]

I actually meant singular kill counts like with a sword. Otherwise Kallor has a head start I dont think anyone can catch

I suppose with a sword Iccy must win hands down though I am uncertain. He supposedly killed like 90000 people in that city in BH. Yet his rage usualy kils his companion so he might not have raged for the 800 or so years of being with Mappo so maybe it balances out. Iccy is intermittent but when he does go he kills a load.

Anyway what about standard soldiers like Fiddler and such? discounting Moranth munitions.

This post has been edited by Orb Sceptre Boat: 12 September 2011 - 11:13 AM

[Dolmen 2.0]

hmmm...That makes it tough. surely Mok has a ridiculously high kill count with a sword as would dassem but yes Iccy probably tops this list hands down...

In terms of regular soldiers I'd say Fid and Hedge with munition lobbers are veritable tornados on legs...

What about the zombie class? Tool could have killed tons but he doesn't seem like the type...

[Kanubis]

I don't think the standard soldiers will get a look in. Discounting munitions we simply don't have enough detail.

However, within the category of soldier...

I'm going to go with Ferrule. I'm discounting Dassem because ascendancy should rule you out of the 'soldier' category imo. Temper gets likewise disqualified because his role as Guardian of the Azath on Malaz Isle smells a bit too much like ascendancy. Ferrule however is still alive, kicking and just a regular (albeit stupidly talented) guy. Both the flashbacks in KoK and Mallick's comments about the role of the Sword when arresting Korbolo at the end of RotCG make it clear that Dassem and his budies were at the thick of pretty much every major battle in the Seven Cities campaign. So yeah, amongst the soldiers, discounting those that have taken on a unique non-soldiery role, I think Ferrule has killed the most people.

[Aptorian]

If you kill a man they call it murder.

If you kill a million it's just a statistic.

Imagine being a life insurance salesman when a convergence comes around.

[tiam]

What about the psychological effects of this. Geslers grim humour, or even soldiers humour in general, is a reaction to killing hundreds of people. Not from a distance usually within crossbow range or even face to face.

[Abyss]

Are we counting via munitions? ...because Fid took out an entire building of whirlwind fanatics in TB and i'm figuring that wasfar from the first time he did something like that.

If we're down to one-to-one/battle sword kills, ascendents need not apply, then...

Spinnock Durav - killed his way out of Assail so you know the count is high (he's Andii, but not ascendent).
Skulldeath - not around for all that long but tended to kill groups of enemies all at once.
Ferrule - from what we saw, probably the most stabby of Dassem's Sword.

...but for the hands down stabby stabby winner i have to go with Kalam, because between DG, HoC and TB, the man averaged like 100 kills per book, most of them hand-to-hand.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Abyss, on 12 September 2011 - 02:08 PM, said:

Are we counting via munitions? ...because Fid took out an entire building of whirlwind fanatics in TB and i'm figuring that wasfar from the first time he did something like that.

If we're down to one-to-one/battle sword kills, ascendents need not apply, then...

Spinnock Durav - killed his way out of Assail so you know the count is high (he's Andii, but not ascendent).
Skulldeath - not around for all that long but tended to kill groups of enemies all at once.
Ferrule - from what we saw, probably the most stabby of Dassem's Sword.

...but for the hands down stabby stabby winner i have to go with Kalam, because between DG, HoC and TB, the man averaged like 100 kills per book, most of them hand-to-hand.

Didnt sorry match that in Malaz city? I forget exact lines but I think someone says her shadow dance reaped twice as much damage...

Do not read below if you have not read Past DoD!

Spoiler

Also how many lizzards did Lostara take? if under possesion does that count as a kill to the person or the God?

[Illuyankas]

Well, there are several entities who've killed entire continents, like the CG, Kallor, Poliel (she missed a few though), Icarium's probably massed up enough to count over the years too.

[Abyss]

If we're talking 'hands on' then Sorry and Lostara don't count, because Shadow Dance sends big stabby shadows out to do most of the killing.

Similarly, Iccy in full rage-mode doesn't do stabby so much as walk around turning everything in range into cole slaw with nasty razor wind thingies.

For sheer I PERSONALLY STAB YOU IN THE FACE WITHOUT MAGIC count, i don't think anyone can match Kalam.

[tiam]

Possibly Kalam but theyre rarities, fighting the same organisation twice in the same situation. An assasins job is to kill a target, eliminating small groups whereas the man on the ground has to fight alot more frequently against larger odds. Even Duiker on the Chain of Dogs gets more than a few so we can assume career soldiers might have more.

[Dolmen 2.0]

But then Why aren't we including animals/Soletaken /D'ivers/demons???

Ryllanderas alone Fucks up three armies all on his lonesome and I think the hounds of shadow
are the ultimate Deus ex Machina during the path of hands war.

Then theres Gryllen...

[tiam]

Ryllandaras does well in ROTCG admittedly.

This wasnt meant as a 'whoz killed the most guyz' kinda thread. There about as redundant as whod 'rake would win' win contests. I actually meant it adds a dimension to the tragedy of the Imass if theyve all killed around a million souls. Also if Fiddler, Hedge etc have killed over a hundred people face to face (Trotts probably has for example) does that explain the grim humour, the streak of pragmatism they all have?

[Dolmen 2.0]

well I think Erikson delves pretty deeply into the madness of killing when he conceived the idea of the Tenescowri. the killing of these guys left everyone feeling numb so yeah I think senseless murder of these "innocents" had a huge effect on all the soldiers involved. Itkovian and Paran were perhaps the most remorseful of the group which is weird as Paran was young and "green" Itkovian was most definitely not.

The T'lan on the other hand had a set purpose, they slaughtered Jaghut mechanically and I'm not certain any of them felt much remorse about it. I don't know what the bigger tragedy is here. The fact they don't care about murdering an entire species or the fact the Tyrants of that species did so much wrong to the Imass that any horrid thing they do in return is just trying to get even.

[tiam]

Exactly a grey area. The Imass killing is only one facet ofcourse as there also the arbiters of humanity, cleaning up there mess during the fall of the FE for example. Still is it right that the race that spawned the tyrants had to die?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Orb Sceptre Boat, on 12 September 2011 - 06:05 PM, said:

Exactly a grey area. The Imass killing is only one facet ofcourse as there also the arbiters of humanity, cleaning up there mess during the fall of the FE for example. Still is it right that the race that spawned the tyrants had to die?

Of course not. It's made quite clear throughout the series, but especially in MoI, that the T'lann Imass are seen by most as cruel and merciless massmurderers who wanted to wipe a race from the face of Wu so much that they willingly became undead. Lots of people, including some Imass, condemn the Jaghut pogrom as unjust including,of all people, Kallor.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 16 September 2011 - 03:13 PM