[Kalse]

Telas, on 18 August 2011 - 03:15 AM, said:

Kalse, on 18 August 2011 - 02:54 AM, said:

Telas, on 18 August 2011 - 02:17 AM, said:

ok, reading back through again, i see where you grabbed your train of thought. i mean, it seems like a weak case to me, esp since you seem to be just tagging along with D'riss who seems to have some really weak logic going on (claiming there was cult, tagging along with TS to see where the vote went, asking TS why he voted Kara when he explicitly explained his vote)

i;m not sure what the fuck is up with D'riss, but i think that he strikes me as more of a RI idiot than someone actually reliable. and i agree TS is untrustworthy but if he was a symp, why does he keep talking about being weaponless and asking for protection? i dunno, my gut tells me that TS and Osseric are in on something and Kara doesn't seem to be on their side, esp when digging at anthras' conversation with osseric (first time that was questioned iirc) if you think TS and osseric are roled town, then i could believe Kara is cult, but TS and osseric making and removing votes like their playing hopscotch is giving me the scum vibe

This argument is not good.


interesting opinion ...

First of all, you may notice I wasn't around when TS voted. I came back, that having happened, read up, and agreed with D'riss that it looked scummy, moreso than my previous vote.


how was TS's scumminess more relevant than Galain's absence, esp when he hasn't popped back in since the beginning of the game, right? seems kind of odd to jump around on your voting, esp when you are trailing after other's reasoning not really providing much in the way of fresh perspective on your own.

Catching up on the thread and deciding someone has acted more scummily than the person I'm voting is hardly jumping around.

Galains absence is interesting, but I tend to put little stock by meta reasoning like that. Claiming someone hasn't contributed much is one thing, claiming you think they are lurking is harder to prove.

"Trailing after others reasoning". By which you mean "agreeing with their case". Simiarly with my change of vote, it's kind of the point to vote on what you think is the best case.

You seem to think it is inherently scummy to agree with someones case. TS' behaviour is, imo, the scummiest so far. It is also pretty obvious why, there's not exactly much to add to it.

Claiming there was a cult-the OP mentions CF would be given as cultist. Different people have different definitions of M&P. Personally, I wouldn't have read it as cult, but then I've read lovecraft so it may have been more obvious for me.

you talk about classic mafia memes such as signaling through voting and yet you think that claiming cult-dynamics for an M&P game isn't strange, or even disruptive?

Cult is not as uncommon as silencing or forcing people to post in a certain manner, and also had some wording that could easily be seen as suggesting it in the OP.

Secondly, following TS onto a Kara vote is not weak logic. If you think someone is signalling a master, you vote for the master, not the symp (you seem to have failed to grasp this when questioning me earlier, so I would not claim a logical high ground were I you). It so happened that what TS did that looked like signalling was a vote.


considering that was the only reasoning you were using, as opposed to providing more quotes, asking for input, commenting on other aspects of Kara's behavior, etc, i thought you were just being careless and lazy in the same vein as d'riss and was not sure why you were just dropping one vote for another weak case

As Kara pointed out, his behaviour is not relevant to the case. The reason for my vote was soemone elses behaviour suggesting Kara was scum rather than karas own. When I think something is scummy, I don't look at everything they've ever posted and stretch to cast it in a scummy light. Karas behaviour otherwise did not catch my attention for being hugely scummy. Because it's not. It could be accused of being light on content, and that is pretty much it, and there aren't enough posts to base an under-the-radar type case on. But the casee isn't based on his own behaviour, and never has been.

It also seems pretty dodgy for you to claim you think the case is weak because D'riss wasn't sure about the setup of the game-something entirely unrelated to the strength of the case.


i think that d'riss's inconsistencies are most likely ignorance, but that doesn't rule out he is acting the fool to be disruptive. i am just a little more cautious of opinions coming from unreliable sources

Being confused by the OP is hardly an inconsistency.

I feel the accusation of simply tagging along is invalid, since it implies someone hopping on a train without thought or belief in it. I gave some reasoning of my own, but yes, I do agree with D'riss' assessment of TS' vote. It's dodgy. I'm tagging along to the extent that there always is on lynch trains-I agree enough to vote.


if you believe that TS's vote for Kara is a solid argument, let's use an equally strong argument to say that you are just voting to be allied with someone and claim to have a valid reason for your vote. if D'riss's argument is enough to garner votes, then why are you the only one clinging to it?

That's not an equally solid argument for a start. Voting on a case and out of the blue are rather different.

You have yet to provide any critique of the case beyond calling it weak, instead simply going for the people who support it.

"If it's a good case why aren't there more votes" is just ridiculous. Perhaps people are waiting for a reaction, think it has enough pressure, or prefer other votes. And again it is an argument that has nothing to do with the case itself.


You then refer to your earlier post, which i am about to move onto.

[Telas]

ugh... look kalse, it is still day 1, and until we have a night phase, everything is speculations and searching for meaning in a sea of spam. i have given a theory, however out-there, which i figured i would stick with since accusations without support and a vote are jumped on like white on rice. my gut and observations make me suspicious of osseric, TS, and anthras and thus i am sticking with them unless someone can actually find something more reasonable

as for your vote, i was trying to point out that it seemed hasty and poorly thought out which struck me as suspicious and worth noting. i think that without input from others, we can keep this bitch-slap contest going for quite awhile, but the fact is i voted on a strange theory that needs some input and revising and you voted beside a theory that was speculative and (for the sake of argument: imao) weak.

so, im off to bed. if you want to keep picking apart at the strawman, enjoy.

anyone else.... if you have input, go for it. i'll just hold my vote where it is until i see something that is more convincing than my gut

[Kalse]

Telas, on 18 August 2011 - 03:42 AM, said:

ok, well let's think about how a cult would draw together, especially in the rich environment of RPing. the cult would want to identify members, make sure that the night kills didn't reduce their team size, and potentially point out pertinent facts to other cult members. this is under the assumption that nobody knows who is who, or that only two cult know each other and are probing for the other members.

Nobody knowing each other is unlikely in M&P. Probing doesn't really fit with the signalling you claim since they directly refer to each other.

this is risky, but as long as people were following suit and RPing as well, such signaling could be obscured fairly easily. now, cult most likely has 2 killer roles, esp. in a ".5" numbered mafia game. what if they have other roles, which according to the OP could include a healer or a guard. this would make more sense if....

....the town also had its own night killers. we have both sides taking pot shots overnight, and if we had a quicker moving game, we could have very active night scenes (we'll see when this day ends)

This is pure speculation, and unlikely for M&P. Weren't you complaining earlier of us being led astray by people speculating about over complicated possibilities?

anyways, that is my straw man, and regardless, I believe their posts and vote changing are scummy enough as it stands. TS could be a healer requesting a guard, TS could be a symp asking not to be night killed, or TS could be a night killer requesting a heal/guard (meaning i misinterpreted his weaponless comment).

Why would someone request a guard?
Symps trying to avoid being NK'd is common. What I find objectionable here is the signalling. I simply think your interpretation is too much of a stretch. Perhaps TS' comment about osseric having the right idea, but the other stuff just weakens your argument, and I still think that TS' vote is a more likely piece of signalling.

however, i feel very confident that osseric is one of the killers based on the above reasoning. TS, i am still unsure of his role.

[Kalse]

Telas, on 18 August 2011 - 04:06 AM, said:

ugh... look kalse, it is still day 1, and until we have a night phase, everything is speculations and searching for meaning in a sea of spam. i have given a theory, however out-there, which i figured i would stick with since accusations without support and a vote are jumped on like white on rice. my gut and observations make me suspicious of osseric, TS, and anthras and thus i am sticking with them unless someone can actually find something more reasonable

as for your vote, i was trying to point out that it seemed hasty and poorly thought out which struck me as suspicious and worth noting. i think that without input from others, we can keep this bitch-slap contest going for quite awhile, but the fact is i voted on a strange theory that needs some input and revising and you voted beside a theory that was speculative and (for the sake of argument: imao) weak.

so, im off to bed. if you want to keep picking apart at the strawman, enjoy.

anyone else.... if you have input, go for it. i'll just hold my vote where it is until i see something that is more convincing than my gut

It is day one, and we still have a good amount of time left. My vote put Kara I think to L-7? I thought TS' thing was the scummiest thing so far on thread so I voted it, which has more benefits than just advancing the train I think is best at the time. I can't see much reason to be hesitant voting at this point.

I think your case stretches too much and has holes in it. I can't argue with gut but it seems tunnel visioned, stretching to show every post in a scummy light because you think the poster is scum.

I would like to hear why you think the case on Kara is weaker too, if it goes beyond gut and distrust of the D'riss.

[Kalse]

Also, good night.

[Kalse]

And now I'm off as well, since no one is around.

See you tomorrow.

[Anthras]

Telas, on 18 August 2011 - 12:21 AM, said:

and finally, I agree with Kara that again I see signaling here in this post, this time between osseric and anthras. I am very suspicious of people posting with "..." and letting someone else, maybe their team mate, fill in the blank. moreover, i haven't really seen any rebuttal from osseric or anthras for this particular accusation.

so i think there is definitely a link between osseric and TS (they are not voting for each other for one, and it is very interesting that a couple vote clusters, such as one for osseric, haven't started a lynch train) and very possibly a link between osseric and anthras

i want to hear what anthras was indicating with the initial "M" in that later quote, and why osseric brought up Galain after talking about the seemingly unrelated topic of the Inn's name.

Vote Osseric, for suspicious associations and his potential to be a night killer.

Telas, what the hell have you been smoking? I'm signaling Osseric? The guy seemed eager to play a Lovecraftian themed game. If you're familiar with pen&paper and RPGs based on Lovecraft work, then you know that it's all about Elder Things, paranormal, tentacles&slime, disgusting stuff that can't be killed with explosives or bullets or anything of that sort - and with people going inevitably insane as they lose Sanity Check after Sanity Check on their road to Cthulhu Mythos delving.
So everyone ends up either dead, or inside a small cozy room with soft white walls. See Arkham Asylum for more details.
Eagerness to play such a game in the first place says that either you're already insane/deranged to begin with - or you're a Masochist.
Which is what M stands for. And you would have noticed that I made a pun on it later, about people being nekkid in the thread, in a game that most often involves tentacles in it, and about BDSMing.

And speaking of the lynch train, that behavior led to three votes into the very first 4 hours of the game. As it started.
The only reason people didn't push that agenda up further, was due to the timing of the votes, the fact that it was very early in the game, and some discussion on it that Osseric's behavior was more on the symp-side rather than the killer-side, and it would be wiser to go for his master first, than stick on him.

Kalse, on 18 August 2011 - 03:22 AM, said:

If you think you have evidence suggesting a player is a town role, why would you reveal it?

This.
THIS.

Telas, on 18 August 2011 - 03:42 AM, said:

ok, well let's think about how a cult would draw together, especially in the rich environment of RPing. the cult would want to identify members, make sure that the night kills didn't reduce their team size, and potentially point out pertinent facts to other cult members. this is under the assumption that nobody knows who is who, or that only two cult know each other and are probing for the other members.

this is risky, but as long as people were following suit and RPing as well, such signaling could be obscured fairly easily. now, cult most likely has 2 killer roles, esp. in a ".5" numbered mafia game. what if they have other roles, which according to the OP could include a healer or a guard. this would make more sense if....

....the town also had its own night killers. we have both sides taking pot shots overnight, and if we had a quicker moving game, we could have very active night scenes (we'll see when this day ends)

anyways, that is my straw man, and regardless, I believe their posts and vote changing are scummy enough as it stands. TS could be a healer requesting a guard, TS could be a symp asking not to be night killed, or TS could be a night killer requesting a heal/guard (meaning i misinterpreted his weaponless comment).

however, i feel very confident that osseric is one of the killers based on the above reasoning. TS, i am still unsure of his role.

Since when town started operating under different circumstances than WCS options?
16 player game, and you think it will be uncommon for a paired killer combo? Outside thread communication? Two symps, one for each paired killer who don't know the other killer?

For someone who seems eager enough to analyze and explain how someone's behavior and posts leads you to believe he is roled town, and further explaining which role he has - your reluctance to consider that team scum could operate under better intel and being organized more than the mandatory 'Scum know who Town are' information, is suspicious as hell.

Strawmaning and kicking dust in our eyes. Hmmmm

[Osseric]

on phone be on properly soon. I do not know any other person an therefore have not symped anyone on purpose. I do have a role though and think it would be a mistake lynching me but not disasterous

[Anthras]

Osseric, on 18 August 2011 - 06:51 AM, said:

on phone be on properly soon. I do not know any other person an therefore have not symped anyone on purpose. I do have a role though and think it would be a mistake lynching me but not disasterous

I don't like this, one single bit.
I don't think you were under any particular sort of pressure, or anywhere near enough of getting lynched any moment now. So why this sudden change of heart?
Reveal should have been a last-resort card type of thing, imo.

You're opening the door to all kinds of nasty stuff, PI-ing people being one of them.

[Path-Shaper]

There's 14 hours and 15 minutes left of the day.


Players still alive: Barghast, Sorrit, Osseric, Anthras, Kalse, Karatallid, Silanah, Korlat, Thyrllan, Telas, Shadow, Galain, Fener, Emurlahn, D'riss, Tulas Shorn.

9 votes to lynch.
8 votes to go to night.

1 vote for Galain ( Thyrllan)
4 votes for Osseric (Shadow, Galain, Korlat, Telas)
1 vote for Fener (Sorrit)
2 votes for Karatallid ( D'riss, Kalse)
2 votes for D'riss (Emurlahn, Fener)

Players that have yet to vote: Barghast, Anthras, Karatallid, Silanah, Osseric

[Osseric]

Anthras, on 18 August 2011 - 07:07 AM, said:

Osseric, on 18 August 2011 - 06:51 AM, said:

on phone be on properly soon. I do not know any other person an therefore have not symped anyone on purpose. I do have a role though and think it would be a mistake lynching me but not disasterous

I don't like this, one single bit.
I don't think you were under any particular sort of pressure, or anywhere near enough of getting lynched any moment now. So why this sudden change of heart?
Reveal should have been a last-resort card type of thing, imo.

You're opening the door to all kinds of nasty stuff, PI-ing people being one of them.

A few reasons, today is the only day I know there is a healer out there, also if I did it last resort then there would be no credibility at all, if I do it early enough it will help us actually target the right player or give us more of a chance, i'm guessing there is only a few of us Roled players out there being what it is.

I am suspicious of a few people but have not had the time to go through the thread properly which I will do at some point today.

[Karatallid]

Kalse, on 18 August 2011 - 01:09 AM, said:

Karatallid, on 17 August 2011 - 08:36 PM, said:

Sigh...When did voting for your boss ever become a sign of potential signalling anyways?

Around when people kept doing it.

It's certainly not uncommon.

However, it is usually pointless trying to catch it (either as town or scum), so the signalling is usually a certain kind of vote.

Kinds of vote that are dodgy:

1. Voting someone before they are online. Pretty obvious.
2. Voting with very forced reasoning. This can be a symp signalling or a master wanting to get a vote down to avoid the main trains later. Obviously a bit subjective.
3. Voting jokingly while the game is getting serious (TS can I feel be accused of this). Joke votes aren't in the innos interests. The problem is that innos still tend to do it fairly often(though it seems to be in decline) on day one, in the early joking phase, so it's only really if they do it after that when it is dodgy (since normally too many people are doing it, which gives the scum an easy place to hide a signal, and can't really help the innos until later when looking at patterns).
4. Voting for no reason, or just to vote. Similar reasons to 2.

yea thanks for this, but it was more of a rhetorical question

My point was that this stuff happens all the time and there no way to distinguish between scum signalling with this and normal behavior.
So basing a case on something like this alone is silly.

Sure... use it as a basis to try and establish possible links and come back to it if other things fit together later on but you seem to be wanting to shoe horn me into this rather unlikely scenario now.

[Barghast]

Osseric, on 18 August 2011 - 06:51 AM, said:

on phone be on properly soon. I do not know any other person an therefore have not symped anyone on purpose. I do have a role though and think it would be a mistake lynching me but not disasterous

I'd go looking for a double face palm picture if that wouldn't cause more confusion over silencing et cetera, which I find rather odd to be incorporated in an M&P, anyway. A vote count would be appreciated, but I'm not aware of there being any kind of extraordinary pressure on you yourself right now, only on Kara, and if you are town and don't know him, then usually, the prudent strategy is to NOT throw your own life on the line for him like you do now. Especially not if you are roled yourself, as you say. I entirely agree with Anthras about its inherent dangers.

So, as a lynch deterrent for yourself or Kara, this is not very effective and poses way more questions than it solves. Moreover, all those questions arise in a situation due to your own making, not by external pressure, and that makes it very dodgy.

I'm somewhat limited on my time and so have no way to comment in depth on the entire quote/unquote/reply in red/reply in green debate, not in a coherent reply anyway until I have more time to read it and sort it out, which will probably be late on friday at its earliest and the weekend in a personal wcs, but I will say what I said again: this is a most promising start to the game.

[Karatallid]

Kalse, on 18 August 2011 - 01:27 AM, said:

Remove vote

Vote karatallid

I think TS looks like he's symping more strongly than Osseric did, Osserics reaction was pretty reasonable, and my vote always had an element of trying to get the game going involved.

I think TS has some questions to answer. The timing of the vote looks dodgy aswell. It comes just after a big discussion about whether cult could be M&P and accusations of people trying to confuse the thread, which is pretty serious. TS had been on for quite some time, so the vote doesn't seem right for a jokey/casual vote. Also, as D'riss pointed out, there are several players who made that sort of post.

I like the way you are forcing him into some corner as if he now HAS to answer to these allegations to prove ME innocent?
I mean...who is getting the votes here? He doesnt care. For all he knows i am scum. Why should he put any effort in.
For all i know HE is scum....BAH


"You think TS has some questions to answer" but what then?....you are just forcing him to stick up for me.
Then you are going to come back and say "look he is sticking up for the him again"

I dont like this reasoning of yours....its like almost orchestrated.
Nothing he says is going to look good with the way you guys are painting this simple vote he put on a random low poster.

[Barghast]

Osseric, on 18 August 2011 - 07:39 AM, said:

Anthras, on 18 August 2011 - 07:07 AM, said:

Osseric, on 18 August 2011 - 06:51 AM, said:

on phone be on properly soon. I do not know any other person an therefore have not symped anyone on purpose. I do have a role though and think it would be a mistake lynching me but not disasterous

I don't like this, one single bit.
I don't think you were under any particular sort of pressure, or anywhere near enough of getting lynched any moment now. So why this sudden change of heart?
Reveal should have been a last-resort card type of thing, imo.

You're opening the door to all kinds of nasty stuff, PI-ing people being one of them.

A few reasons, today is the only day I know there is a healer out there, also if I did it last resort then there would be no credibility at all, if I do it early enough it will help us actually target the right player or give us more of a chance, i'm guessing there is only a few of us Roled players out there being what it is.

I am suspicious of a few people but have not had the time to go through the thread properly which I will do at some point today.

OK, this is utterly and completely beyond face palming and comes close to a wallbash with bleeding head gash.


Are you now trying to validate your reveal by saying that you expect the scum to target you, then expect the healer to heal you (and incidentally, you KNOW there is one), and you probably also expect a finder to check your alignment to validate your arguments and PI you when scum does not target you and people start doubting you and moving for a lynch? Is your opinion of your scum finding skills so inflated that you want the whole of town to revolve around keeping you alive?
Also, if this is your way of pointing towards the healer....... aaaaaaaaargh.

I can see no positive whatsoever to this. None at all.

[Karatallid]

aaaand we have a reveal?....WTF is going on

[Osseric]

Silanah, on 17 August 2011 - 08:16 PM, said:

Tulas Shorn, on 17 August 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

Karatallid, on 17 August 2011 - 02:02 PM, said:

hey hey..checking in.

vote karatallid

for checking in but really being checked out. i was wanting to vote for someone that hadn't posted at all but that turns out to be fener and i know where that usually leads.

I was going to point this out too. I found it weird that Anthras jumped on D'riss for agreeing with him and accused me of "skimping" less than an hour after my first post when we have players like Karatallid who have only made one post early on, some who hadn't even posted yet (Barghast, Fener (who still hasn't posted)), and then Korlat whose only post so far was a vote with little explanation.

Korlat, on 17 August 2011 - 03:47 PM, said:

So you are voting Osseric because he looks like he is symping you?

Ill bite

Vote Osseric

So I find Korlat and Karatallid semi-suspicious. It's possible Fener just hasn't got a chance to play yet; happens a lot on day one. About Osseric:

Osseric, on 17 August 2011 - 11:50 AM, said:

Anthras, on 17 August 2011 - 11:45 AM, said:

Osseric, on 17 August 2011 - 11:34 AM, said:

Am I brave or just not a hundred pennies to the pound?

This is what i've been waiting for.

Osseric you sound excited about this.
Either you're deranged, or an M.
Or...

I am about the game but not about the "Inn of Death", it sounds like a Demon Inn, something to do with Galain...

This is the post where it looks like he's symping Galain. At first glance I thought this was pretty harmless, only a few people had posted at the time, and he's not actually defending Galain or really even commenting on his posts. In fact the post is kinda odd, what is Osseric even saying here? Seems like a joke about the setup, but why put Galain's name out there at all? I can definitely see this as signaling, which I'm sure is what drew the votes out.

Not sure what to make of everything right now but I'll be around.

out of all the players which other ones are more commonly known as the demon realm? I have just read Gotm again and it was fresh in my memory.

[Barghast]

So, Osseric, you drop a bombshell, people react and question you, effectively asking for an explanation of your motives (and whatever you do, don't do anything that might give other roles away!!), and you go around ignoring them and commenting on some earlier oddity? This does not sit too well with me.

[Emurlahn]

I think I get the reasoning behind D'riss vote now, so

remove vote

[Emurlahn]

Osserics reveal is odd and makes absolutely no sense in it's timing. I don't think a killer would fake reveal on day one, but a symp might if his master is getting pressure.
To bring up the Galain again right after the reveal could be a try to direct us to lynch Galain and don't look any further at people, who are getting pressure right now.