[Gothos]

Sorry, worrywort, but don't go comparing downloading music and TV series online to looting, pillaging and setting buildings on fire. That's just not anywhere near the same severity (though I guess finding pirates in their homes and giving them a beatdown could perhaps work ). Those people out there ruining shops and homes, openly assaulting the police force - how long before murder and rape follow? Not long I'll tell you. This isn't crossing a street without a crosswalk or urinating in public, this shit is getting serious, and those not partaking in the riot must be protected.

[Puck]

Though I wouldn't exactly advise to shoot 'em all, I do think that Sombra makes some valid points there. I strongly believe in responsibility for one's own actions and while I think that yeah, what triggered the riots on Saturday may or may not have been wrong, everything after that was just fuckwits seizing the opportunity, and for that they should get their asses handed to them.
Send in the police, stop treating them like kittens. They've brought it upon themselves and when they attack police forces the deserve what they get. Though apparently the police farced were really thin spread, as this seems to be the worst rioting in the UK in known history [that's what the news over here tell me, anyway]. The old lady in the video

Still the sad thing is, that this happened and spread in the first place. But it seems like regular people have been uniting against the rioters, which is probably the best statement made in the whole mess.

[Cyphon]

Quick note: Every single police unit in London was mobilised last night. There are no more police to send in. They're asking all special constables to report in tonight.

They're also cancelled the England-Holland friendly.

[Silencer]

If there are not enough police, send in the army.

I'm with Sombra on this one. Alright, shooting people may be over the top - for the moment - but as this is neither an organized demonstration against a government, nor the result of people suppressing such a demonstration (if that were the case, I think it would be a different situation entirely, and a much, much worse one), then it must be cracked down upon. You cannot let people run riot, causing chaos and destruction. They get taken down, and the riots stamped out. That's the simple, words-based part of a difficult practical solution. But it needs to happen.

I'm personally very impressed by, for example, the story of the 400 Asian youths running off rioters from their neighborhood - good on them!

[Tapper]

I'm not sure whether harsher methods are key here. We saw the same in Paris' banlieus in mid-2000s and in one of Athens' neighbourhoods, and the French police had been very heavyhanded with those guys, and still the riots went on for weeks. Part of what is happening here is ethnic (or at the least, second/ third generation gangs of ethnic minorities, apparently) and that means you're walking on eggs before civil rights groups and entire parts of your respectable, law abiding population throw in their voice, claiming they want an end to the riots but not this way - when you need to rely on these people to be cool and collected.

What you need is crowd control. That means more people and strict and clear measures that will reduce presence on the streets. Imho, using the army for manpower, patrols and checkpoints would make sense, freeing up police to deal with the issues. By contrast, to send the army in to deal with the issue would be a massive mistake.

A massive problem I see, is that those who rely on the police for the safety of their property and their physical well-being will and are getting extremely frustrated because even when they call, when they need protection, little is forthcoming (because the police is stretched). I've seen the same (albeit restricted to loitering, littering, graffiti, the occassional insult and frequently lots of loud noises) in my old neighbourhood, and this is extremely frustrating and does very, very little for one's willingness to rely/ inform the police.

A lot of what I read also points at the police neglecting to do any proper policing in these neighbourhoods in the past decade or so. Bring that back. Make sure that if someone calls the police, the police actually comes... that way, for the non-gangsters, the police is at the least an entity they can respect and depend on again, and it will isolate the gangs.

Also, I know it is crisis, but the best way to turn a have-not gangster into a citizen who abides by the law is making sure a) the have-not gangster can get a job (makes him leave the street by day and tires him out, so he won't be on the streets all night) and income (to spend on stuff he is proud of and wants to be protected).

[polishgenius]

 Ulrik, on 09 August 2011 - 07:17 AM, said:

Well, average czech person already translated riots this way: "its fall of multiculturalism...its not good old England...immigrants will destroy us..."

Those people need a slap. Sorry.

It's got fuck all to do with multiculturalism. These are people of all creeds and colours smashing up their own neighbourhoods.



Tapper, you've got to be extremely careful comparing the Athens and Paris stuff to this. Those had a cause, they were rioting over something. These don't; yeah, the initial spark was a death in Tottenham, but the protest there by the people actually protesting that was initially peaceful; these riots are just opportunistic thieves and bastards and by and large, they're doing their own areas in. I'm not saying lethal force because that would turn into a war on the streets, but something needs to be done.

Then they need to work out what the fuck went wrong in bringing people up over the last 10-15 years that kids feel they can do this sort of shit for no reason.

[Anomander Rake]

http://www.guardian....ce-looting-live

In the end, the rioters didn't arrive. But many business owners fear they are the ones that would be punished by police if fights did break out.

"We were outside ready and expecting them," said the manager of the Turkish Food Market, who asked not to be named.

"I felt very panicky because we are not safe from either the rioters or police. We put all of our efforts into this shop. It took 20 years to get it like this. But we do not know about our rights. I'm scared that the police and the government will attack us if we defend our businesses. We are being squeezed between the two dangers."

Huseyin Yavuz, the manager of another grocery store and off licence across the road, told me two nearby businesses had been burgled in the early hours of Sunday morning, after first riots in Tottenham, and their owners had been told there were no officers available to respond.
But when workers later took to the streets with bats to defend the shops, they were warned by police that they could be arrested.

"We just have to go inside and wait," he said.

I think the above kind of sums it up, why communities haven't sprung up as much to defend their areas. Police will likely arrest you for protecting your property, and someone save you if you happen to beat up any rioters who try to set fire to your home. You'll be the one to go to prison, not the rioter.

Sad thing is, most of the rioters who are arrested will be released a few hours later without charge.

This post has been edited by Anomander Rake: 09 August 2011 - 11:49 AM

[D'iversify]

The main issue it appears to me from having surveyed some of the news stories is that police tactics have been unable to cope with what ultimately are a few thousand lightly armed and spontaneously (dis)organised youths. Basically, London's riot police are organised to deal with larger crowds who stick in one place, but since these mobs don't stick around to be kettled but instead run off and disperse if things get a bit hairy, the police don't have a clue. Regarding the seriousness of the riots, don't conflate their geographic spread across London and to other cities with their being actually dangerous to the country as a whole. These are largely isolated copycat groups who have arguably been as inspired by the inefficiency of police attempts to crackdown on the original rioters as by the violenece itself.

[Tapper]

 polishgenius, on 09 August 2011 - 11:45 AM, said:

Tapper, you've got to be extremely careful comparing the Athens and Paris stuff to this. Those had a cause, they were rioting over something. These don't; yeah, the initial spark was a death in Tottenham, but the protest there by the people actually protesting that was initially peaceful; these riots are just opportunistic thieves and bastards and by and large, they're doing their own areas in. I'm not saying lethal force because that would turn into a war on the streets, but something needs to be done.

Then they need to work out what the fuck went wrong in bringing people up over the last 10-15 years that kids feel they can do this sort of shit for no reason.

I agree on all fronts (especially the doing your own areas in) except the Paris thing - iirc, that turned into a turfwar between originally northern african immigrants and the police with burnt out cars and buildings partly because of simmering discontent, partly of absent police turning up in force and with riot gear and partly because of those areas being economical wrecks.
In many ways, the same ingredients are in this cauldron.

As much as I understand the reaction of the Turks and asians (400 of them apparently ran out 150 looters), I fear for what will happen to them and their shops if they do get into a fight with looters/ robbers, as happened in the Ledbury in Notting Hill. Those rioteers with a long memory will come back for pay-back against the personell/ store owners who drove them off.

[Supernova]

I heard that there is talk of using plastic bullets sometime in the future, but I don't know if they will are not. Also there has been a fatality, a 26 year old man, don't know much more than that.

[Obdigore]

They should use those non-lethal claymores they put on the sides of embassies, or move in with bean-bag guns.

Get knock the rioters down, keep them in holding until this calms down.

[Anomander Rake]

Some of these rioter surely can't get any dumber http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

and 2 girls rioters explain why they are rioting: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

This post has been edited by Anomander Rake: 09 August 2011 - 02:41 PM

[Obdigore]

Apparently they burnt down the only Sony CD/DVD distribution warehouse in the UK. NO MEDIA FOR ANYONE THAT WANTS IT LEGALLY!

[QuickTidal]

I agree with Sombra to an extent, a strong message is certainly needed. Rioters don't give a shit about police, nor riot gear, nor tear gas, or even rubber bullets and beatings. It JUST doesn't work iunless you incapacitate, but with similar riots bursting up in so many locations, how do the police tamp that down?

So what do you do? Rioters have all the rights in this situation. Look at the G20 Riots in my city, blocks from my house last year....something like 400 people arrested...of which probably 50-60 are REALLY guilty of bad stuff...and most of those get off with a fine (heavy or not) if only because the other 300 people have made such a big stink about having been arrested in the first place when they were only protestors and not rioters...that the city has to bend on even the bad cases for the most part. A fine to a rioter...is nothing. Even if it's high, most of these shitheads don't have the money anyways. I'd love to see the stats on jail time for the G20 rioters....i bet it's low.

Definitely bring in the army at this point. I think that just a military presence would make half these idiotic nobs shit their pants where they stand.

Cops = nothing out of the ordinary therefore not scary.

Military = Holy shit...the military?! *thug twats run away*

It's sickening, and at what point do we call this what it is? And yeah, just like a lot of riots, the police will inevitably face the shit at the end for "brutality" or whatever.

Sorry, but if you are setting stores and residences on fire and looting and shit...you no longer qualify as law abiding enough to be peacefully taken down...you have now entered vigilante territory, and the police/military response to that needs to be harsh and fast, and those thugs effing deserve the beatings.

This post has been edited by King Kazma: 09 August 2011 - 06:25 PM

[Mott]

Military Police might be a good idea and if it goes on any longer some kind of curfew might be needed, that would of course be totally unfair to those who are doing nothing wrong but many people are holed up now what with the way the rioters are acting so it might help to curb things slightly. In these cases I agree that the police need to use slightly more force though I wouldn't go so far as to say they should start shooting.

People banding together as a community to help each other and repel the looters is commendable, they're in a really tricky positing but they've built their lives around their businesses and communities, why should they be expected to just let it all go to hell? I really hope they are not targeted by the police and managed to come out the other end with their communities and businesses intact.

This senseless, opportunistic violence is despicable, a bunch of arsehole ned's running amok, I hope everyone here is safe and doesn't get caught up or hurt, I can't imagine how terrifying it must be.

[QuickTidal]

My relatives are in Bristol and my great aunt said she was driving near the riot area and had to turn down other streets and go back to the friend's house she was visiting out of town as she couldn't get home...she escaped unscathed, but was apparently VERY shaken up when she spoke with my mother and hasn't yet gone home.

fucking animals.

This post has been edited by King Kazma: 09 August 2011 - 06:34 PM

[Cause]

Calling in the military I think will be a bad move. Not because I think its not needed, not because I think the military will cause a mess but their is reason in countries like the US that the police and military are separate. Theirs a reason that the prime minister despite being in charge of the military does not wear a uniform. Its the kind of thing police states do. Surely police can be called from other areas first? I also think that rioters will care once a few get rubber bullets in the torso and tear gas in their faces.

[caladanbrood]

Manchester has now kicked off in the last 3 or 4 hours. Were barely any problems when I left work in Salford at about 6 tonight... but now shops are on fire, and it's getting worse. Work tomorrow...... unlikely.

[Coco with marshmallows]

related, do you think?:


amazon bestsellers this week

[QuickTidal]

 caladanbrood, on 09 August 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

Manchester has now kicked off in the last 3 or 4 hours. Were barely any problems when I left work in Salford at about 6 tonight... but now shops are on fire, and it's getting worse. Work tomorrow...... unlikely.

Shit.

Stay safe Brood.

Time for the baton rounds methinks.