[Mezla PigDog]

My mother got sent home from work in Central Manchester. She's not really concerned though.

To put it into context for international folks, Salford is experiencing riots as well. I'm from Salford and it is a poor white area. I would guess the majority of the rioters are as english as it gets! Fortunately Salford Precinct is such a dump, they can't make it much worse than it already is.

It is all quite insane!!

[QuickTidal]

I'm more concerned that the Yard put 16,000 more police on LONDON streets, but tonight the violence is erupting in other places....it's scary and it seems that Blackberry messaging has enabled an organization to target specific places and avoid police. That aspect of it is really scary to me.

[Tiste Simeon]

There is only one thing these people respond to and that's force. Look at some of the videos as soon as one officer ran forwards, the group scarpered. They are cowards and thugs. Beat the living crap out of every single last one of them, no mercy and no apologies afterwards. They wanted violence, give them violence. Anyone moans about it afterwards, arrest them for being in collusion with the people who tried to destroy society.

Harsh, I know, but harsh times call for those kind of measures. Some officers from the force I work for are being sent to London to help out, and it really angers me to see officers unable to do anything for fear of the Politically Correct brigade, or some scummy parents who let their darling children go and trash a city night after night... Sod them all and smash all the rioters up.

Sorry, rant over, it angers & upsets me seeing those in authority apparently powerless to do anything...

[Obdigore]

Tiste Simeon, on 09 August 2011 - 08:56 PM, said:

There is only one thing these people respond to and that's force. Look at some of the videos as soon as one officer ran forwards, the group scarpered. They are cowards and thugs. Beat the living crap out of every single last one of them, no mercy and no apologies afterwards. They wanted violence, give them violence. Anyone moans about it afterwards, arrest them for being in collusion with the people who tried to destroy society.

Harsh, I know, but harsh times call for those kind of measures. Some officers from the force I work for are being sent to London to help out, and it really angers me to see officers unable to do anything for fear of the Politically Correct brigade, or some scummy parents who let their darling children go and trash a city night after night... Sod them all and smash all the rioters up.

Sorry, rant over, it angers & upsets me seeing those in authority apparently powerless to do anything...

No, you can't do that. It will end up having police officers sued for extreme violence, because at least one person they hurt wasn't 'rioting' or whatnot. Bring out your safest non-lethal methods. Bean Bag Rounds (You guys call them Baton rounds I think) - The guns that make your skin feel as if it is on fire. The noise-weapons that make you drop to the ground in pain but with no known lasting damage. Bring in the military to operate these weapons and for planning/logistics, but you put no military troops on the ground with lethal equipment.

Drop the tear gas on them, round them up, and put them in basements for a couple days.

There needs to be a swift, measaured, and as bloodless as possible response. The people who are not rioting, but are trying to protect their homes and businessess need to be protected.

[Puck]

Obdigore, on 09 August 2011 - 09:04 PM, said:

There needs to be a swift, measaured, and as bloodless as possible response. The people who are not rioting, but are trying to protect their homes and businessess need to be protected.

This.

[stone monkey]

Tiste Simeon, on 09 August 2011 - 08:56 PM, said:

There is only one thing these people respond to and that's force. Look at some of the videos as soon as one officer ran forwards, the group scarpered. They are cowards and thugs. Beat the living crap out of every single last one of them, no mercy and no apologies afterwards. They wanted violence, give them violence. Anyone moans about it afterwards, arrest them for being in collusion with the people who tried to destroy society.

Harsh, I know, but harsh times call for those kind of measures. Some officers from the force I work for are being sent to London to help out, and it really angers me to see officers unable to do anything for fear of the Politically Correct brigade, or some scummy parents who let their darling children go and trash a city night after night... Sod them all and smash all the rioters up.

Sorry, rant over, it angers & upsets me seeing those in authority apparently powerless to do anything...

The problem with that is that you get incidents like the guy walking home who was killed during the London student protests. Collateral damage, maybe. But there are still innocent people, who the police are supposed to protect, who are going to get hurt. The problem would appear to be that these aren't mass riots, like those of the 70s, 80s and 90s, or even the large demonstrations of earlier in the year, but rather small groups who move quickly and scatter at the first sign of police attention. The police are being out manuvered more than anything.

Arguably what the police have learned from this is the same thing that armies learn after every battle; you only know how to fight your last battle. They seem not to have been prepared for what actually happened, only for how they thought it would go.

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 09 August 2011 - 09:21 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

I didn't say kill them I just said beat the snot out of them and let them get hurt. They need to do something a lot more than standing firm while a bunch of retards throw cones and signs at them...

Man I really hate the "long distance heroes" loud gobby sods who are happy to shout obscenities at the police from a way off, and as soon as anyone gets near they leg it...

[Illuyankas]

Crossposting from the messing with groove thread because I couldn't forget this thread existed:

Illuyankas, on 09 August 2011 - 09:20 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 09 August 2011 - 08:22 PM, said:

Yeah this whole crap across the UK is retarded. The worst part is a majority of those responsible will escape justice. When are police gonna be allowed to use brutal/extreme force?

This right here? This is messing with my groove. People ignore the Met - the recorded beating a man in a wheelchair Met, the proven liars Met, the kettling and making riots out of peaceful protests Met - triggered this whole thing by shooting a man who wasn't even close to the handgun he'd stashed in a sock, of all places, let alone touching it. And then they released a typical Met statement of complete bullshit about how he'd shot at them first that contradicted eyewitnesses, their own involved officers and the IPCC report afterwards, because they are all pieces of shit. The Police do NOT need more power, they do a perfectly good job of murdering people and abusing that power already.

People in the shittiest parts of our society spend decades being told they are the reason we suck, demonised as 'chavs' and less than human while having all the blame for the situation they're in placed firmly on them instead of the policy makers who put them there, they have hordes of middle and upper class fucks with their 'Fuck you got mine' attitudes telling them they could get out of this shithole if they only tried harder, and have all their avenues of expressing themselves taken away and ignored, and then when they do the only thing they have left to do and lash out you want all them killed or imprisoned for life?

Before you jump to any conclusions here I'm not condoning the firebombings or what have you, I'm saying that people pushed past their limits will sometimes break spectacularly, especially with a very volatile ignition source (Duggan's murder).


Also the shit being thrown onto my facebook feed isn't helping. I mean, it's not as bad as some screenshots I've seen, of some people saying 'hurr I bet this happening at the same time as the movie Rise of the Planet of the Apes is released isn't a coincidence' and actually meaning that, but it's still eyeopening. Hey, you're poor and oppressed, you deserve death!

[stone monkey]

How do you decide what's enough to hurt them and what's enough to possibly kill them? Two or three smacks over the head with a truncheon or three or four? If you provide a blanket standing order to the police that they can knock people around with impunity then you might as well get used to the idea that you're in the process giving them an unlimited licence to kill. If we actually want that in our society then we're going to end up in some fairly unfortunate places, I should think.

[Tiste Simeon]

I do apologise, I was watching all the footage on TV and was extremely angry, cos I know that this is going to come back on the police as if it was all their fault (which to some extent that could be argued, but this has gone far beyond a guy in London being shot...) I don't know what you lot think of the police in general but seeing them unable to do much is highly frustrating... Especially when those who are innocent - I have seen lots of shop owners etc - are complaining that the police don't do more, when if they did do more they would be criticised for being too extreme...

I think I need to sleep!

[worry]

Gothos, on 09 August 2011 - 08:43 AM, said:

Sorry, worrywort, but don't go comparing downloading music and TV series online to looting, pillaging and setting buildings on fire. That's just not anywhere near the same severity (though I guess finding pirates in their homes and giving them a beatdown could perhaps work ). Those people out there ruining shops and homes, openly assaulting the police force - how long before murder and rape follow? Not long I'll tell you. This isn't crossing a street without a crosswalk or urinating in public, this shit is getting serious, and those not partaking in the riot must be protected.

I wasn't making that comparison, as I'm not the one who divided people into "law-abiding" and "scum". I believe in a spectrum of severity of crime. I also believe in the fundamental reasoning that separates law enforcement from trial and judgment from carrying out punishment. If I were to make any comparison between illegal downloads, and looting, and arson, and assault/battery, it's that they all fall under the rule of law and should be dealt with accordingly. What good are laws if they bend/break when they're tested? Punishment follows conviction, not the other way around, for a reason. I would hope we've reached a place where punishing someone with eternal non-existence for breaking glass and taking a TV is widely held to be cruel and unusual. Mob mentality is sub-civilized whether you're a policeman (it was one officer's "shoot to kill" policy that sparked this whole thing wasn't it?), a rioter, or a civilian tsk-tsking at everyone else.

[stone monkey]

I understand, if only a little, the frustration. This is the heart of my city being ripped out. The last time this happened was when the IRA decided to blow up a very large bomb there. This time we did it to ourselves.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Some things never cease to amaze.

I am also somewhat amazed that with as huge of a police force as the met has, that this wasn't under control immediately.

[polishgenius]

Adjutant Stormy, on 10 August 2011 - 12:46 AM, said:

I am also somewhat amazed that with as huge of a police force as the met has, that this wasn't under control immediately.

It's not that huge. 16,000 sounds like a lot, but that's an extraordinary mobilisation with help from outside forces, and it involves police with no riot training on riot control, which they would have been understandably reluctant to do without proper preparation. And given the size of London, even 16,000 isn't that many; I bet there are more streets and roads than that.

The fact that many officers didn't have riot training is of course something that needs to be looked into. They were caught almost as unprepared as the country is by the yearly half inch of snow, it's pretty embarrassing. By the sounds of it Manchester has been much more effective at dealing with it; but then they had a few days warning.

[QuickTidal]

This was initially a long post about my feelings about stuff, but it was rather caustic so I've shortened it.

@Illy....Duggan had a handgun in his sock.....HE HAD A HANDGUN IN HIS FUCKING SOCK. I don't care if the handgun was or wasn't used or if he pulled the trigger or not. Don't carry a handgun is job fucking one. It's simple. Why do you gloss over that like it's nothing. If you aren't a thug, you don't carry an unregistered gun. If you are a thug, and you're carrying a handgun...the intent to do harm at some point is in your head...otherwise you don't need to have a gun. So don't gloss over the fact that he has that gun. He did and he shouldn't have and one day that gun would likely have killed or injured someone. And this stopped being about Duggan after Saturday...it became about something else entirely. Teens feeling effing entitled to free shit. Don't defend this shitheads right at owning a gun by acting like the fact that he didn't fire it makes it okay. As far as I am concerned guns are illegal in London...you own one...you face the ire of the police who are trying to tamp down on said weapons. If you are a cop and you walk up to a guy who you know IS stacked with a handgun...I guarantee you will look at that situation differently, that cops LIFE was on the line simply because Duggan HAD that gun...end of story.

Illy, Tiste is a fellow forumite and he works with police...his insight into the inner workings of this stuff is a heck of a lot deeper than yours, so before you go off the deep end and shout people down for their opinions...THINK about who it is you are talking to please.

This post has been edited by King Kazma: 10 August 2011 - 04:18 AM

[QuickTidal]

Illuyankas, on 09 August 2011 - 09:29 PM, said:

People in the shittiest parts of our society spend decades being told they are the reason we suck, demonised as 'chavs' and less than human while having all the blame for the situation they're in placed firmly on them instead of the policy makers who put them there, they have hordes of middle and upper class fucks with their 'Fuck you got mine' attitudes telling them they could get out of this shithole if they only tried harder, and have all their avenues of expressing themselves taken away and ignored, and then when they do the only thing they have left to do and lash out you want all them killed or imprisoned for life?

No, sorry you misunderstand the situation. The majority of these little shits have spent years being told that the best stuff is what they should have (music, trainers, clothes, gadgets), and if they want it then they can just take it. This is the result of a generation of kids downloading music, movies and the like free on the internet. If you want it, fucking steal it and they tuck that away in their entitlement bank and call it RIGHT. Well no it's not fucking right. People in the shittiest parts of society keep it that way...I volunteer at a place down in the sketchy part of Toronto and there are GOOD people there doing GOOD things...and trying to teach their youths that violence and crime is NOT the answer...the problem is that these kids are being told by the pop culture they consume that what they are doing is okay and that they need to get rich or die tryin'. that's a problem. But don't try to tell me that its because they CAN'T behave properly...they fucking can if they buckle down and try. This is evidenced to me by the GOOD people who work to try to make things better....they are totally poor and totally beaten down, but they still are TRYING and for a lot of kids they ARE making a difference. Lashing out is a childish schoolyard bully tactic, and even the people FROM the rough part of town agree on that. It's not EVER going to be okay to do such things, so don't try to sell that as an excuse, cause it's not.

This post has been edited by King Kazma: 10 August 2011 - 03:22 AM

[Gatekeeper]

Freedom!!!!!

[QuickTidal]

Best quote so far.

Helen Leonard Quinn, an 82-year-old pensioner who’s lived in the area since 1970

“Hitler couldn’t blow the country I love away, and these thugs in the street should not be allowed to take over.”

Goddamned right.

[RodeoRanch]

Hope all my British Malazan friends are safe!

[worry]

KK, you have one decent point here. Riots do sometimes snowball till they're way disconnected from the original point, and proportionally it might even be true that >50% of those involved are opportunists. While it's rarely that simple, on a basic level I can't fault anyone for at least acknowledging the possibility of that premise.

But when you say "police crossing the line," that's just a euphemism for breaking the law, plain and simple. I'm not afraid of police crossing the line, I abhor it. Cuz frankly, once they've crossed that line, guess what, they're on the same side of it as the rioters. I can't recall anybody making the argument that policework isn't a risky, stressful job...but arbitrarily bashing in the heads of rioters (let alone bystanders) isn't a legitimate method of blowing off steam. And yes, people in need of police aid sure do hope the police do their best. Why exactly shouldn't they? There's no basis for equating expecting officers to follow the laws they uphold and the duties of their job, with hoping the worst for them or forgetting that most police aren't corrupt. Those are straw men. I get that they're born out of frustration, but even if they were legitimate complaints it wouldn't grant police a license to overstep their regulations. They're not judges, they're not juries, and you better be thankful they are not executioners. It's not "PC" to uphold the law, it's the basic point of the job. Self defense is legit. Riot suppression is legit. Mistakes and human error: reasonable. Outright disregard for protocol, fundamental civil rights, and human decency...isn't policework. Once you cross that line, you're no longer police, badge be damned.

Edit: Okay, two good points: Teenagers are indeed awful.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 10 August 2011 - 03:39 AM