[tiam]

Sinisdar Toste, on 18 August 2011 - 12:47 AM, said:

hm, well, it's possible that not all of the andii had accompanied rake and brood to coral during the pannion war. some may have stayed up north then filtered down to black coral later. i can imagine some of them just drifting away from the host as it marched as well.

still, it may just be the effect of 'thousands' that erikson is going for here, not the reality. it may seem like 'thousands' to the decimated shake, as they are surrounded, but still be only a thousand or so.

Yeh but thats a bit thin. Theres a trend on the inconsistencies to blame the perception of the POV which does bother me. We can make excuses but it doesnt make any sense for the Andii to stay up north as they were only north to fight Malazans. They should have been in Moons Spawn or on the march. I hope we do get actual Andiian numbers.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Arsewipe McBogroll the Third, on 18 August 2011 - 09:18 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 18 August 2011 - 12:47 AM, said:

hm, well, it's possible that not all of the andii had accompanied rake and brood to coral during the pannion war. some may have stayed up north then filtered down to black coral later. i can imagine some of them just drifting away from the host as it marched as well.

still, it may just be the effect of 'thousands' that erikson is going for here, not the reality. it may seem like 'thousands' to the decimated shake, as they are surrounded, but still be only a thousand or so.

Yeh but thats a bit thin. Theres a trend on the inconsistencies to blame the perception of the POV which does bother me. We can make excuses but it doesnt make any sense for the Andii to stay up north as they were only north to fight Malazans. They should have been in Moons Spawn or on the march. I hope we do get actual Andiian numbers.

i agree it is a bit thin, the only andii that we definitively know joined the 1400 or so from MoI are Clip and Nimander's gang. still, i can pass it over easy enough and just take away 'lots' instead of thousands and wonder where they came from

[worry]

Didn't Mother Dark's reappearance basically call out to all TA everywhere? Karkhanas became a homing beacon to any and all, and they came. An "If you build it, they will come" type deal.

[tiam]

Sinisdar Toste, on 18 August 2011 - 10:24 PM, said:

Arsewipe McBogroll the Third, on 18 August 2011 - 09:18 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 18 August 2011 - 12:47 AM, said:

hm, well, it's possible that not all of the andii had accompanied rake and brood to coral during the pannion war. some may have stayed up north then filtered down to black coral later. i can imagine some of them just drifting away from the host as it marched as well.

still, it may just be the effect of 'thousands' that erikson is going for here, not the reality. it may seem like 'thousands' to the decimated shake, as they are surrounded, but still be only a thousand or so.

Yeh but thats a bit thin. Theres a trend on the inconsistencies to blame the perception of the POV which does bother me. We can make excuses but it doesnt make any sense for the Andii to stay up north as they were only north to fight Malazans. They should have been in Moons Spawn or on the march. I hope we do get actual Andiian numbers.

i agree it is a bit thin, the only andii that we definitively know joined the 1400 or so from MoI are Clip and Nimander's gang. still, i can pass it over easy enough and just take away 'lots' instead of thousands and wonder where they came from

Dont get me wrong its not a massive deal but these arent inconsistencies but seem like oversights. Im glad it wasnt just me who thought there was only a thousand or so Andii.

worrywort, on 18 August 2011 - 10:27 PM, said:

Didn't Mother Dark's reappearance basically call out to all TA everywhere? Karkhanas became a homing beacon to any and all, and they came. An "If you build it, they will come" type deal.

Im unsure its suggested that the Andii with Rake are the ones that have come. Im sure it would have been mentioned if an enclave of Andii other than those at Coral turned up coincidentally. Like when Erikson introduced the Second Ritual that was mentioned.

[Gatekeeper]

"oversights". Ha! I'm just so amazed at how much SE was able to keep straight!

[D'iversify]

Arsewipe McBogroll the Third, on 16 August 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

LordofTheFallen, on 25 July 2011 - 02:24 AM, said:

tiam, on 24 July 2011 - 11:01 AM, said:

I dont think so. 7c was in the grip of a plague with the survivors being scarred from it. The plague cult wouldnt need an army but I can see it becoming the dominant faith on 7c because it effects everyone on their. They said they were going to writie a new holy book so I can see it becoming a dominant power, like the lady in SW.

Also it would be a bit anti climatic to set all that up and nothing come from it.

Well with the death of Poleil the plaque would either vanish completely, in which case no one would need the cult, or it would stop spreading. So the plagued poeple who haven't died yet may possibly join the cult, but eventually followers would stop trickling in and all the plaqued people would eventually die. It's a cult that worships crippledness in the middle of a desert (which would limit the amount of cripples who could get there) and it shows absolutly no desire to spread its influence beyond the city, I doubt many people even know about it. So once the main founding generation is dead it wouldn't be able to survive.

SE in the book claimed that the followers would work themselves free of the CG influence and it would become an unaligned power. Now that seems like a lot of hassle for it to die off off screen. While I agree the practicalities of cripples bouncing along into the desert are questionable its safe to say that they were set up to last longer than Felisin and that kid she named Crokus die the end kinda thing.

Well, isn't part of Erikson's whole take on religion that cults have a life of their own independent of their deities (see the Jhistal cult's influence over Mael), and that it's not a matter of having important backers, more about charisma and taking advantage of opened spaces. Seven Cities is certainly now an 'open space' - the old order of Falah'dan priest-kings was destroyed by the Malazans, the cult of Apocalypse proper is all but finished and those survivors of war and plague are largely destitute and desperate. in such an environment, the Cult of Salvation will likely draw followers purely because it has shown that it has the power to survive the cataclysms that have all but destroyed Seven Cities society. The mainstay of the Cult's believers may for now be cripples, but, as an anthropologically aware writer like Erikson knows, their survival and positive thriving can easily be interpreted by those seeking something to believe in as a sign of divine power and fortune. With the accumulation of such followers, of course, comes real power, and in Erikson's world power increased religo-political power usually produces increased magical power as a side-effect.

Moreover, if Paran has entered Salvation into the Deck, the cult arguably will not just go away, as entry into the Deck helps secure power and arguably entrenches it.

This post has been edited by D'iversify: 19 August 2011 - 08:48 AM

[Kanubis]

Arsewipe McBogroll the Third, on 18 August 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 18 August 2011 - 10:24 PM, said:

Arsewipe McBogroll the Third, on 18 August 2011 - 09:18 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 18 August 2011 - 12:47 AM, said:

hm, well, it's possible that not all of the andii had accompanied rake and brood to coral during the pannion war. some may have stayed up north then filtered down to black coral later. i can imagine some of them just drifting away from the host as it marched as well.

still, it may just be the effect of 'thousands' that erikson is going for here, not the reality. it may seem like 'thousands' to the decimated shake, as they are surrounded, but still be only a thousand or so.

Yeh but thats a bit thin. Theres a trend on the inconsistencies to blame the perception of the POV which does bother me. We can make excuses but it doesnt make any sense for the Andii to stay up north as they were only north to fight Malazans. They should have been in Moons Spawn or on the march. I hope we do get actual Andiian numbers.

i agree it is a bit thin, the only andii that we definitively know joined the 1400 or so from MoI are Clip and Nimander's gang. still, i can pass it over easy enough and just take away 'lots' instead of thousands and wonder where they came from

Dont get me wrong its not a massive deal but these arent inconsistencies but seem like oversights. Im glad it wasnt just me who thought there was only a thousand or so Andii.

worrywort, on 18 August 2011 - 10:27 PM, said:

Didn't Mother Dark's reappearance basically call out to all TA everywhere? Karkhanas became a homing beacon to any and all, and they came. An "If you build it, they will come" type deal.

Im unsure its suggested that the Andii with Rake are the ones that have come. Im sure it would have been mentioned if an enclave of Andii other than those at Coral turned up coincidentally. Like when Erikson introduced the Second Ritual that was mentioned.

They wouldn't have coincidently turned up right then though. They would have started turning up at Coral (presumably a huge whalloping patch of pure Kurald Galain would be a sufficient tracking point for them) after TTH when Mummy Dearest started caring again.

This post has been edited by Kanubis: 19 August 2011 - 08:54 AM

[tiam]

Kanubis, on 19 August 2011 - 08:53 AM, said:

Arsewipe McBogroll the Third, on 18 August 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 18 August 2011 - 10:24 PM, said:

Arsewipe McBogroll the Third, on 18 August 2011 - 09:18 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 18 August 2011 - 12:47 AM, said:

hm, well, it's possible that not all of the andii had accompanied rake and brood to coral during the pannion war. some may have stayed up north then filtered down to black coral later. i can imagine some of them just drifting away from the host as it marched as well.

still, it may just be the effect of 'thousands' that erikson is going for here, not the reality. it may seem like 'thousands' to the decimated shake, as they are surrounded, but still be only a thousand or so.

Yeh but thats a bit thin. Theres a trend on the inconsistencies to blame the perception of the POV which does bother me. We can make excuses but it doesnt make any sense for the Andii to stay up north as they were only north to fight Malazans. They should have been in Moons Spawn or on the march. I hope we do get actual Andiian numbers.

i agree it is a bit thin, the only andii that we definitively know joined the 1400 or so from MoI are Clip and Nimander's gang. still, i can pass it over easy enough and just take away 'lots' instead of thousands and wonder where they came from

Dont get me wrong its not a massive deal but these arent inconsistencies but seem like oversights. Im glad it wasnt just me who thought there was only a thousand or so Andii.

worrywort, on 18 August 2011 - 10:27 PM, said:

Didn't Mother Dark's reappearance basically call out to all TA everywhere? Karkhanas became a homing beacon to any and all, and they came. An "If you build it, they will come" type deal.

Im unsure its suggested that the Andii with Rake are the ones that have come. Im sure it would have been mentioned if an enclave of Andii other than those at Coral turned up coincidentally. Like when Erikson introduced the Second Ritual that was mentioned.

They wouldn't have coincidently turned up right then though. They would have started turning up at Coral (presumably a huge whalloping patch of pure Kurald Galain would be a sufficient tracking point for them) after TTH when Mummy Dearest started caring again.

Admittedly a nice idea but theres no mention of it. Even a small sentence of TA numbers growing because of this would be fine but theres little mention of more Andii turning up. There a few at Bluerose (or was until RG) but it seems that there was only a few incurions into WU one with Rake the other with Ruin with Andarist being a mystery as we have no idea when he came. The reason why I ut the second thing about Korlat about to explain something was because to me its sounds like she was about to say 'children appear to escape...' the wars in KG. Thus still some Andii in KG who didnt leave though this contradicts later evidence in TTH DOD and TCG which all claim it was empty.

[Abyss]

Arsewipe McBogroll the Third, on 20 August 2011 - 08:40 AM, said:

... Thus still some Andii in KG who didnt leave though this contradicts later evidence in TTH DOD and TCG which all claim it was empty.

They may have left later. There's plenty of evidence that there were multiple exoduses from KG.

But i tend to agree that there's more to the warren than Kharkaras, so some remaining population isn't unthinkable.

[worry]

That reminds me though, did the TA shades that were enslaved by the Tiste Edur ever get released?

[D'rek]

worrywort, on 23 August 2011 - 10:06 PM, said:

That reminds me though, did the TA shades that were enslaved by the Tiste Edur ever get released?

We haven't had any info one way or another about it. Likewise there's the various Tiste shades in the old Azath's dragon-glass wall that Nimander visited in TtH. Seems like Tiste souls do some funky things when they die...

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Okay, this is probably answered somewhere, but I'm not sure where else to ask; in TBH, Hood makes a bargain with Paran to do something in exchange for something to do with saving the Malazans from the falling chunks of jade. What exactly did Hood do? And what was Paran's side of the bargain that had Quick Ben so alarmed?

[dodgowan]

POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 09 September 2011 - 12:25 PM, said:

Okay, this is probably answered somewhere, but I'm not sure where else to ask; in TBH, Hood makes a bargain with Paran to do something in exchange for something to do with saving the Malazans from the falling chunks of jade. What exactly did Hood do? And what was Paran's side of the bargain that had Quick Ben so alarmed?

Hood released Heborics' soul so that it could return to his body and save the world. I think he asked Paran to take the Host to Kolanse to fight the forkrul assail. Not too sure about that though.

[Sinisdar Toste]

dodgowan, on 09 September 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 09 September 2011 - 12:25 PM, said:

Okay, this is probably answered somewhere, but I'm not sure where else to ask; in TBH, Hood makes a bargain with Paran to do something in exchange for something to do with saving the Malazans from the falling chunks of jade. What exactly did Hood do? And what was Paran's side of the bargain that had Quick Ben so alarmed?

Hood released Heborics' soul so that it could return to his body and save the world. I think he asked Paran to take the Host to Kolanse to fight the forkrul assail. Not too sure about that though.

not only would that explanation make tons of sense, it would fill in some of the baffling gaps in our knowledge regarding what characters did and didn't know. if QB is hearing hood tell paran that the forkrul assail have the crippled gods heart in kolanse...

[tiam]

Who drank Sorrits blood and what effect did the Otateral have on that person?
How does Spite open SD and use otateral to free Dejihm Nebrahl?

Seriously if all it takes is access to SD to access Otateral in a warren based form, which does make a sort of twisted sense given that there was an aspected dragon for it, then why dont those ascendents with access simply nullify magic flung at them. It would have made he assault on Moons Spawn a damn site less damaging. I know its quite difficult as ST has to bargain to get access to it in RG I think but still managable for the heavy hitters of the Malaz world.

[Sinisdar Toste]

but we still don't know enough about otataral to know how it would actually work in a situation like pale. what spite is using, imo, is Starvald demelain in a such a concentrated form that it annihilates itself, creating otataral. that's how otataral is created right? massive unleashing of sorcery? so we think at least. that doesn't sound like something you could use effectively in combat.

either way, i don't think that you would be able to wield otataral in the same manner as you would a warren. that just seems antithetical. to actually get the magic-resistance, you would need physical otataral, and creating otataral would take such a powerful blast of energy, that doing it in the midst of a magical fire-fight would probably be dangerous as fuck. once it starts, i imagine it would be hard to stop, and then you end up with otataral island.

[tiam]

Sinisdar Toste, on 02 October 2011 - 03:55 AM, said:

but we still don't know enough about otataral to know how it would actually work in a situation like pale. what spite is using, imo, is Starvald demelain in a such a concentrated form that it annihilates itself, creating otataral. that's how otataral is created right? massive unleashing of sorcery? so we think at least. that doesn't sound like something you could use effectively in combat.

either way, i don't think that you would be able to wield otataral in the same manner as you would a warren. that just seems antithetical. to actually get the magic-resistance, you would need physical otataral, and creating otataral would take such a powerful blast of energy, that doing it in the midst of a magical fire-fight would probably be dangerous as fuck. once it starts, i imagine it would be hard to stop, and then you end up with otataral island.

Im not suggesting wielding a otateral warren to negate sorcery but as youve said she unleashes it in a concentrated burst to the extent it burns itself out. Its the only time we see this and it always bothered me as its never used or mentioned again, the link between SD and Otateral. Now from what we know from DOD/TCG it makes slightly more sense yet its hardly clear cut. Just seems a bit like a plot device.

[jquin3]

Hi guys, I don't know if this was already discussed in any of the other threads here and there are so many and I dont have the energy to sift through all of them. But it is my impression that everything that has happened with Kellanved and Cotillon seeking and achieving ascendancy/godhood and Tavore Paran leading the Bonehunters into the ultimate goal of freeing the Crippled God is all part of a grand scheme of the old emperor to do just that. He and Cotillon now as gods can work from that side of the fence, influencing events and other ascendants into achieving that goal and Tavore as adjunct and master tactician doing her part in the realm of mortals. Tavore is revealed to be a Talon, who are the branch of assassins who were loyal to Cotillon and describes herself as a child of the emperor which suggests a relationship bound by loyalty if not affection. Maybe she was a protege of his. Anyway, I love the final book. It came as a total surprise. I dont mind that not all questions were answered. I dont think that is the point of the series. This is not Wheel of Time where everything has to be spoon fed to you. It is Malazan Book of the Fallen after all where you are treated like an adult.

This post has been edited by jquin3: 05 October 2011 - 11:50 AM

[tiam]

jquin3, on 05 October 2011 - 11:32 AM, said:

Hi guys, I don't know if this was already discussed in any of the other threads here and there are so many and I dont have the energy to sift through all of them. But it is my impression that everything that has happened with Kellanved and Cotillon seeking and achieving ascendancy/godhood and Tavore Paran leading the Bonehunters into the ultimate goal of freeing the Crippled God is all part of a grand scheme of the old emperor to do just that. He and Cotillon now as gods can work from that side of the fence, influencing events and other ascendants into achieving that goal and Tavore as adjunct and master tactician doing her part in the realm of mortals. Tavore is revealed to be a Talon, who are the branch of assassins who were loyal to Cotillon and describes herself as a child of the emperor which suggests a relationship bound by loyalty if not affection. Maybe she was a protege of his. Anyway, I love the final book. It came as a total surprise. I dont mind that not all questions were answered. I dont think that is the point of the series. This is not Wheel of Time where everything has to be spoon fed to you. It is Malazan Book of the Fallen after all where you are treated like an adult.

Yes thats pretty much what people believe, though whether it was a long term goal pre ascension is debateable. For example did they become gods to free the CG? possibly, as this does save Burn and Kellenveds empire yet I think it was more of a discovery when they attained godhood. Either way works though tbh as the extensive research they did in the Azath isnt known, its imossible to tell when they discovered and set about freeing the CG.

However I feel it was more than this. The entire scheme I feel was to change the dynamic between gods and followers.

This is a theme of the books, 'dont mess with mortals' being the tagline of the Malaz series, yet ST approaches this in a different way. TCG is used as a power charger, his very flesh providing other gods with a level of some power, though now possibly only Ardata. It may be that ST and C were unable to get in on this particular game being new kids on the block as it were, so decided to attack the powerbase of other gods. Also a revelation in HOC shows that ST is gaining power (first Throne Shadow Throne) to do nothing with it. He is essentially limiting the influence of the gods in the mortal realm by taking away there power. Another theme of the series is how the gods should step back from the mortal world and this seems to be part of the change that should be made, especially in war. The gods should leave things upto to mortals, and this was even stated by QB in MOI. However all of this must be balanced and mortals cannot manipulate their gods. I beleieve we see ST feelings on this when its claimed he wiped out the Jhistal cult of Mael given their illl treatment of there god.

i was going to go on about how I think Kellenved and Cotillion were NO but ill leave it there

[worry]

There's also the afterlife to consider. It seems that gods essentially reap all the benefits of worship without any of the responsibility, to the living or their souls. Hence Hood's Realm and his decision to abandon it in TTH. Either the gods are gonna have to do their jobs, or the BBs will be there to pick up the slack. It's still unclear what hand ST and Cots had in this part of the plan, but they certainly weren't against this pretty enormous bucking of the status quo.