[amphibian]

Spoiler

I think he did have chunks cut out. I didn't see this book as particularly bad - it was constrained by the framework he'd erected for it by expanding the cast so much and putting all those people into play. He navigated that framework well and delivered an installment of the story that leaves things much more open and less constrained.

I could indeed have done without the Dorne and Penny sideplots, as I think they were artificialities that could have been worked out within the story already. Dorne ain't shit in the books, and Maegarey is basically nothing at this point. A potential threat to Cersei, when she has enough swords at her throat already and no need of a child learning how to be manipulative. At the same time, I like the Cersei-High Septon faith conflict, as the rise of various religions and cults seems to be a constant theme in the books. I do think that the Reek chapters were a bit overdone, but like how they were a good way to getting the Mance/Abel and Manderly plots into the book.

Also, I really missed Littlefinger in this one. Sansa should be the one taking Maegary's place as the manipulative biotch to rival Cersei. In an ideal world, Martin smushes the two together and gives the Vale the army that's key to Aegon/Dany's plans as well as Westeros.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 18 July 2011 - 10:15 PM

[QuickTidal]

Held, on 18 July 2011 - 09:08 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 18 July 2011 - 01:48 PM, said:

Here's my full mostly non-spoiler thoughts on the book.

http://icebergink.bl...dragons-by.html

I liked this non spoiler review. Great analogy of the 1st 600 pages as a barge and remaining 350 pages as speed boat. There was way too much filler and pointless scenes in the barge. The analogy of the barge made me think about a certain characters trip down the river in a barge like boat. Kind of interesting but not really. Can't believe that with 6 years to write and review he could not streamline it. He needs a editor who has the guts to tell him to cut out the fluff. Still, it was a decent read. I will likely continue with the series, if only to find out more about the Other.

Thanks Held. I did my best to keep it spoilerless for the readers.

Yeah, the barge/speedboat analogy probably came out of my subconscious in reference to those river scenes. LOL!

[acesn8s]

Just finished this morning. I'm a little let down, I find this book only marginally better than AFfC. Still a soild book, though.

Spoiler

So, does anyone think that Tyrion is not Tywin's son? After I re-read AGoT for the first time I've always found Tyrion's initial description to resemble a Targaryen.

Also, I've noticed more and more references to Tyrion's Uncle Gerion (and his search for Brightroar). I'm betting in the next book, Tyrion find's his uncle's name in the Second Son's book.

I don't think Jon is dead. He'll wake up in the next book, probably saved by Mel.

I wanted to see Ser Gregor Robert fight. I think this book lacked action south of the Neck.

So, Griff remembers Ned and Ashara and little girl who died at birth. Put the nail in the coffin of Jon being Ned's.

I like the theory that Aegon might be Ilyrio's child. I find it too convenient that Vary's was focused on Viserys and Dany for the past 4 books and now Aegon shows up and he takes immediate action against Kevan.

Can't wait for the next book.

[King Bear]

Thanks QT/KK for that review. It's confirmed my decision to wait for the paperback. I just don't feel like spending around $40-$50 NZ

Spoiler

for a mostly slow moving/filler story with a tonne of cliff-hangers.

Well, that and I have 12 books sitting on my shelves that I've yet to read.

I don't feel at all spoilered, so well done!

This post has been edited by King Bear: 19 July 2011 - 02:43 PM

[Tapper]

acesn8s, on 19 July 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:

Can't wait for the next book.

Don't tell Martin. He'll make you.

[QuickTidal]

King Bear, on 19 July 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:

Thanks QT/KK for that review. It's confirmed my decision to wait for the paperback. I just don't feel like spending around $40-$50 NZ

Spoiler

for a mostly slow moving/filler story with a tonne of cliff-hangers.

Well, that and I have 12 books sitting on my shelves that I've yet to read.

I don't feel at all spoilered, so well done!

A'thank you! 'preciate it.

[acesn8s]

Tapper, on 19 July 2011 - 02:54 PM, said:

acesn8s, on 19 July 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:

Can't wait for the next book.

Don't tell Martin. He'll make you.

[amphibian]

Acesn8s,

Spoiler

I agree with you about finding Uncle Gerion in the Second Sons book. That book seems like it's too much of a Chekhov's gun to not yield someone important's name. Not sure about Tyrion being a Targaeryn. Perhaps he has enough of the blood to ride or calm one, once Dany gets the horn from the Ironborn.

acesn8s, on 19 July 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:

Spoiler

I wanted to see Ser Gregor Robert fight. I think this book lacked action south of the Neck.

Spoiler

Such a weird Frankenstein moment. Who's head is on the Mountain's body now? I don't think Qyburn would be allowed to keep the actual head and send a fake to Dorne. That's gotta be his real head.

[acesn8s]

amphibian, on 19 July 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

Acesn8s,

Spoiler

I agree with you about finding Uncle Gerion in the Second Sons book. That book seems like it's too much of a Chekhov's gun to not yield someone important's name. Not sure about Tyrion being a Targaeryn. Perhaps he has enough of the blood to ride or calm one, once Dany gets the horn from the Ironborn.

acesn8s, on 19 July 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:

Spoiler

I wanted to see Ser Gregor Robert fight. I think this book lacked action south of the Neck.

Spoiler

Such a weird Frankenstein moment. Who's head is on the Mountain's body now? I don't think Qyburn would be allowed to keep the actual head and send a fake to Dorne. That's gotta be his real head.

Spoiler

Found the section from ADWD and Tyrion's initial description from AGoT.

The white knight (Barristan) chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys . . . as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunk jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the . . . the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, your Grace. “I-“

One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white.

I'll have to take some more time and find the section where Martin describes Tyrion being born and Tywin being away. really makes me think that Tywin is not his Daddy.

[Held]

acesn8s, on 19 July 2011 - 07:44 PM, said:

amphibian, on 19 July 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

Acesn8s,

Spoiler

I agree with you about finding Uncle Gerion in the Second Sons book. That book seems like it's too much of a Chekhov's gun to not yield someone important's name. Not sure about Tyrion being a Targaeryn. Perhaps he has enough of the blood to ride or calm one, once Dany gets the horn from the Ironborn.

acesn8s, on 19 July 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:

Spoiler

I wanted to see Ser Gregor Robert fight. I think this book lacked action south of the Neck.

Spoiler

Such a weird Frankenstein moment. Who's head is on the Mountain's body now? I don't think Qyburn would be allowed to keep the actual head and send a fake to Dorne. That's gotta be his real head.

Spoiler

Found the section from ADWD and Tyrion's initial description from AGoT.

The white knight (Barristan) chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys . . . as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunk jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the . . . the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, your Grace. “I-“

One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white.

I'll have to take some more time and find the section where Martin describes Tyrion being born and Tywin being away. really makes me think that Tywin is not his Daddy.

I am confused. I thought Cersei and Jamie are the elder siblings to Tyrion. If liberties were taken at the wedding bedding wouldn't it call into question C&J's paternity? Or did I totally miss that Tywin had two wives so different mothers?

[Ceda Cicero]

I think we can probably dispense with the spoiler tags now that it's been a solid week since the release. And people about these parts who don't want to be spoiled have probably gotten used to the presence of the thread enough so that they know to avoid it if they wanna. Not to mention it says spoilers in the thread title.

Anyhoo, I really don't think Tyrion is a Targ. Part of it's just my gut, part of it's the fact that I think that scene Barristan described was just another example of why Tywin had a reason to hate Aerys and ultimately betray him, and part of it's the fact that Tyrion's character has, from the beginning, been so bound up in his daddy issues with Tywin that it would just be too much of a 180 for me to try to grasp someone other than Tywin being his father.

[Mentalist]

I have mixed feelings about the book.

First off, I hate Martin for the Jon cliffhanger. sincerely hope he's not dead. with R+L being pretty soundly disproved (Davos being told about Ned and the smuggler girl. Gods, I hated the R+L=J thing ever since i've heard of it, reading those words made my day), I'd like to see what becomes of him and the North more than ever.

on the other hand, Tyrion's journey and all the worldbuilding of the Free Cities was superb.

The Dornish arc was necessary, imho. it had to conclude all the buildup of Dorne form AFFC.

Theon's arc was probably the most interesting.
I really didn't see any type of resolution from this book. in this, it's a lot like AFFC. I don't think even read together, these can compare to ASOS. doesn't make them bad books per se, just... unfulfilling, I guess.

[Ceda Cicero]

Mentalist, on 20 July 2011 - 01:19 AM, said:

I have mixed feelings about the book.

First off, I hate Martin for the Jon cliffhanger. sincerely hope he's not dead. with R+L being pretty soundly disproved (Davos being told about Ned and the smuggler girl. Gods, I hated the R+L=J thing ever since i've heard of it, reading those words made my day), I'd like to see what becomes of him and the North more than ever.

on the other hand, Tyrion's journey and all the worldbuilding of the Free Cities was superb.

The Dornish arc was necessary, imho. it had to conclude all the buildup of Dorne form AFFC.

Theon's arc was probably the most interesting.
I really didn't see any type of resolution from this book. in this, it's a lot like AFFC. I don't think even read together, these can compare to ASOS. doesn't make them bad books per se, just... unfulfilling, I guess.

I don't really see how Davos hearing from some corrupt lord on the fingers a piece of folklore about Ned knocking up a fisherman's girl effectively disproves R+L=J. To me it smacks of total red herring.

[JPK]

FRANKENGREGOR!!!!!!

I've been holding that in for years now. I will admit to being unsatisfied with aDwD. I just don't feel that I got answers to pretty much any of my questions that were left over from earlier books. Guess it's time to start waiting again.

[Mentalist]

Ceda Cicero, on 20 July 2011 - 03:03 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 20 July 2011 - 01:19 AM, said:

I have mixed feelings about the book.

First off, I hate Martin for the Jon cliffhanger. sincerely hope he's not dead. with R+L being pretty soundly disproved (Davos being told about Ned and the smuggler girl. Gods, I hated the R+L=J thing ever since i've heard of it, reading those words made my day), I'd like to see what becomes of him and the North more than ever.

on the other hand, Tyrion's journey and all the worldbuilding of the Free Cities was superb.

The Dornish arc was necessary, imho. it had to conclude all the buildup of Dorne form AFFC.

Theon's arc was probably the most interesting.
I really didn't see any type of resolution from this book. in this, it's a lot like AFFC. I don't think even read together, these can compare to ASOS. doesn't make them bad books per se, just... unfulfilling, I guess.

I don't really see how Davos hearing from some corrupt lord on the fingers a piece of folklore about Ned knocking up a fisherman's girl effectively disproves R+L=J. To me it smacks of total red herring.

probably not... even though several times in Jon chapters it's mentioned he haggles as if his mother was a fisherwoman...

but I just really, REALLY hate R+L.........

[Held]

My brief review. I have at least 40 posts for ADWD over on the ASOIF forum so have a good sense of the fans likes & dislikes.

Fist pumping mini scenes.

"The North remembers....."
Love those Frey pies....
"Theon. My name is Theon. You have to know your name."


Dany and Tyrion were hundreds of pages of boredom. The ASOIF fans posted hundreds of snide comments about Dany's boy toy, Daria (sp?).
Jon's chapters while not action packed were interesting. He became the administrator man and opened forts, let thousands of wilding through the wall, negotiated with the Bank of Bravos for coin and boats for food for the long winter. Quite amazingly efficient, but not always engaging reading. You could see that something was going to erupt between him and the NW who hated that he was letting wildings through, but I admit to being surprised at what happened. I think what happened is not what is seems. Lots of diverse opinions on this.

The best action was with the secondary POV's like Reek-Theon/Ramsey, Davos/Manderley, and Bran/Bloodraven.

The Theon/Ramsey story was horrifying and the best writing in the book.

I hope that we get a lot more of Bran's POV in the future and he may well end as a primary player in the story. Bran has entered the twilight zone.
Sad to have only 1 chapter on Arya but it took her to a new scary level. While no concrete info on Rickon, hints that if he is alive he may also be in a very unusual place.

New characters and one new big one with more mysteries introduced that solved.

ADWD was better than AFFC but those cliffhangers have become ANNOYING BEYOND BELIEF. The cliff hangers are the primary reason people are unhappy with the book and also that 1st 600 page ride on the barge. Many are still pondering if GRRM has lost his grip on the story, like Jordon, and will take 4 or 5 books to finish.

Trying to not be too spoilerish. It is worth reading but I am not buying on release date next time, but waiting for the fan reaction before I invest time or $. Rather borrow from friend from here on out. I don't care if I own the series like I do with my Malazan books. ASOIF is getting grimmer with each book. I am invested so unless GRRM or I die before it ends, I will find time to read it and speculate endlessly on the scattered clues offered.

[Tapper]

I don't know if any of you noticed it, but Jon's stabbing itself was Julius Caesar's death re-mastered, from the first slash being turned aside to it being done by his closest friends and allies 'for the good of the watch/Republic'.

As for the accountability of the dude doing the telling of the fisherwoman as Jon's mother story to Davos, well... he may not be the epitome of honor. But why would he lie about something like this, where is his gain? If anything, he just repeats what he has heard.

The R + L = J theory... I'm still not sure. In this book, we also get a mention of Dayne's sister being in love with Ned. Such a birth would make the boy a Stark, too, and would compromise both Dayne's honor and that of his sis. Enough reason for honorable Eddard to shut up about that.

Also, neither Stannis nor Melisandre has shown any interest in Jon's blood, where normally, they're crawling over (perceived/ potential) royalty like nothing else... if Jon was Rhaegar's son, I bet there would be more of a hint, also because Elia of Dorne was apparently also a brown-eyed, black haired beauty (like Lyanna) yet her son Aegon has the blond hair and violetty eyes Rhaegar had.

[Cause]

I think its obvious that Rickon is on Skagos. Where else have we been told you can find cannibals?

I think Ned and Wylla and the story about Jons birth is more than a little fishy. We will see

[QuickTidal]

Mentalist, on 20 July 2011 - 05:23 AM, said:

Ceda Cicero, on 20 July 2011 - 03:03 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 20 July 2011 - 01:19 AM, said:

I have mixed feelings about the book.

First off, I hate Martin for the Jon cliffhanger. sincerely hope he's not dead. with R+L being pretty soundly disproved (Davos being told about Ned and the smuggler girl. Gods, I hated the R+L=J thing ever since i've heard of it, reading those words made my day), I'd like to see what becomes of him and the North more than ever.

on the other hand, Tyrion's journey and all the worldbuilding of the Free Cities was superb.

The Dornish arc was necessary, imho. it had to conclude all the buildup of Dorne form AFFC.

Theon's arc was probably the most interesting.
I really didn't see any type of resolution from this book. in this, it's a lot like AFFC. I don't think even read together, these can compare to ASOS. doesn't make them bad books per se, just... unfulfilling, I guess.

I don't really see how Davos hearing from some corrupt lord on the fingers a piece of folklore about Ned knocking up a fisherman's girl effectively disproves R+L=J. To me it smacks of total red herring.

probably not... even though several times in Jon chapters it's mentioned he haggles as if his mother was a fisherwoman...

but I just really, REALLY hate R+L.........

I agree, I loathe the R+L=J thing....like a LOT...just cause most folk are so smug about it....and I also thought this bit of ADWD in Davos chapters was GRRM's of giving fans the middle-(you didn't guess it)-finger...but yeah it's probably still R+L ...

Tappers got a point, why does the lord on the Fingers have any reason to lie about it to Davos of all people?

This post has been edited by King Kazma: 20 July 2011 - 10:56 AM

[Ceda Cicero]

It's eminently possible that the lord of the Fingers is just repeating an oft-told piece of local legend. He may not necessarily be lying to Davos. He may think it's fact. But this guy wasn't even in the Lord's seat when Ned passed through on his way North. It's something to take into consideration, another possible explanation to chalk onto the list of possibilities, but it hardly "debunks" any other theories about Jon's parentage.

Also, Barristan never actually says it was Eddard that Ashara loved. He muses to himself that it was "Stark," meaning that it could have very easily been Brandon (as he was still living and present at the Harrenhal tourney.)

Re: Mel and Stannis wanting to feed Jon to the fire for his royal blood, the ongoing theme with Mel is that she can miss things, misinterpret things, and just downright get shit wrong in her fires. And, speaking of, how about the scene where she asks the flames to show her Stannis and all she sees is Jon, skulls, and a bunch of snow? "I ask for a glimpse of Azor Ahai and all R'hllor will show me is Snow." Certainly not evidence of R+L=J, but a possible wink about Jon being Azor Ahai (or at least some facet of Azor Ahai.)