[Shinrei]

Mentalist, on 15 July 2011 - 12:58 AM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 14 July 2011 - 07:30 PM, said:

Also, if there is cult, saying there is none is very suspicious.

wtf? where are you people getting a cult from?

meng Huo is basically Big Ben times 5
seriously, people, no need to make this more complicated.

Personally I think there is also a faceless man, a jester and a partridge in a pear tree in this game.

My vote is for Vengy to be the partridge.

[Mentalist]

i'm severely tempted to vote Gust for trying to confuse us all with additional fearmongering.

[Gust Hubb]

Mentalist, on 15 July 2011 - 01:37 AM, said:

i'm severely tempted to vote Gust for trying to confuse us all with additional fearmongering.

Fear mongering? At the risk of sounding OMGUS, good lord! I'm just trying to work through things as well as the rest of you. I've proposed revealing the finders and trying to not see this game turn into a WIFOM-fest (you read that post? hmmmm?), and I am suspicious of there being cult, which people are confident there aren't, so hey, I'm rolling with it. Since when does working through things, debating, talking about it all (of which I've seen very little from you btw) = fear mongering. Good god man, you suck.

[Gust Hubb]

Mentalist, on 13 July 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:

Shinrei, on 13 July 2011 - 10:01 PM, said:

Remove vote

I suggest a find of Venge tonight for sure. Helpful Venge is... two words that don't usually go together.

Mentalist, I'm sorry but "we just don't do that in mafia" is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard.

lol, I was trying to be original.
if you insist I make sense, I will rephrase my argument by stating that putting all of our eggs in a singe basket (relying on finder-killers) is simply dumb.

Mentalist, on 13 July 2011 - 10:11 PM, said:

twelve, on 13 July 2011 - 09:59 PM, said:

Mentalist, on 13 July 2011 - 09:54 PM, said:

twelve, on 13 July 2011 - 09:50 PM, said:

Khellendros, on 13 July 2011 - 09:35 PM, said:

twelve, on 13 July 2011 - 09:22 PM, said:

Quick thought before I forget.

If the finder/killers only get three total kills between them and Meng Huo or any other possible scum doesn't have any night kill powers then I would suggest that our finders don't use their finds initially. We try to lynch Meng Huo to death 3 times and then let the finders do the dirty work the last three times or until our lynching him fails miserably and we are getting dangerously close to being mathmaticaly unable to pull of the win.

I'm sorry, but why shouldn't the finders investigate every night? It's not like there's repurcussions for them if they get it wrong, the number of times they can investigate only goes down if they get it RIGHT. And why wouldn't we want them to get it right?

I'm just talking strategy out loud. If the finders only have a limited number of kills then it's better to save them as long as possible. If we can kill scum without having to use those kills it will increase towns chances of winning. But on the other hand I see where doing finds and not finding Meng Huo would limit the number of players that we need to focus on to lynch. It's just, can the finder reveal themselves without opening themselves up to a possible night kill? And how reliable would a reveal be as someone could easily fake reveal and keep us away from who we need to be lynching.

AAAAHHHHHH!!!! I had a feeling when I first read up on this game that it was going to be very straightforward and easy to figure out. The more and more that I think about it the less and less I know which strategy to use in finding MH.

easy: vote, prod, accuse, and watch for reactions. same way you look for scum in any mafia game, lol

So what are my reactions saying?

so far, since you got off the "hey let's all vote night and let the finders sort stuff out" line of thought, you're yoet to say anyhting scummy
remove vote
vote Grief

because he's a slippery one, and i have a bad gut feeling.

Mentalist, on 14 July 2011 - 01:56 AM, said:

Vengeance, on 14 July 2011 - 01:53 AM, said:

Hmmm... Well I am getting ready to go to bed so I had probably lay down a vote.


Personally I have found twelves play erratic and unfocused. Much like a towny who doesn't care. Mental has been his usual commy self. Kell I had a good discussion with so I am disinclined to vote for him. Honestly right now the only people who ring any bells other then the ones I have mentioned are Kurt and The Hidden one.


Vote for The Hidden One.

why thank you, at least someone can see straight.

Mentalist, on 14 July 2011 - 12:44 PM, said:

hey all, slept in, running late for work, back in the evening.

Ah, that's much better. Ok, well considering that you enjoy looking into me, I returned the favor (mostly to back up my query of what you have contributed). Here are some representative statements from Ment, and I fail to see what you have contributely lately other than quoting, attacking, quoting, scoffing, quoting, making "gut" votes, quoting, etc. Anyways, i would love to hear an original thought from you, preferably without the crutch of quotes.

[Mentalist]

well, you bring the cult out of friggin' nowhere, for starters. not like there's any indication that there is one or anything.

and, btw.having a finder reveal fest won't eliminate WIFOM. because the finds are essentually useless in their traditional sense. anyone cleared as "inno" could be immidiately designated as a successor, so a find is pretty meaningless,unless they actually hit MH, in which case they don't need to reveal their find, b/c he'll be dead.

[Gust Hubb]

Ok, great work, you have got critiquing down to a "T." So how do you propose we play? hmmm. Vote for who we don't like today? Roll the dice? Oh I know, let's quote here and there, make a snarky remark, and let other's do the heavy lifting. I still await an idea from you, btw.

I know I'm sounding fairly argumentative myself, but am I right anyone?

[Mentalist]

Gust Hubb, on 15 July 2011 - 02:30 AM, said:

Ok, great work, you have got critiquing down to a "T." So how do you propose we play? hmmm. Vote for who we don't like today? Roll the dice? Oh I know, let's quote here and there, make a snarky remark, and let other's do the heavy lifting. I still await an idea from you, btw.

I know I'm sounding fairly argumentative myself, but am I right anyone?

yawn. we play the same we would play in a game if *gasp* we DIDN'T have a finder.

you know, look for people we think are acting scummy, and we vote for them. Which also helps pour finders, b/c it narrows the suspect pool and all.

we lose when it's 2:2, no? i'm sure someone can do the math and figure out how many lynches we are allowed before we get to that scenario.

[Gust Hubb]

Mentalist, on 15 July 2011 - 02:47 AM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 15 July 2011 - 02:30 AM, said:

Ok, great work, you have got critiquing down to a "T." So how do you propose we play? hmmm. Vote for who we don't like today? Roll the dice? Oh I know, let's quote here and there, make a snarky remark, and let other's do the heavy lifting. I still await an idea from you, btw.

I know I'm sounding fairly argumentative myself, but am I right anyone?

yawn. we play the same we would play in a game if *gasp* we DIDN'T have a finder.

you know, look for people we think are acting scummy, and we vote for them. Which also helps pour finders, b/c it narrows the suspect pool and all.

we lose when it's 2:2, no? i'm sure someone can do the math and figure out how many lynches we are allowed before we get to that scenario.

You mean all one of the scum (or maybe two? I'm not convinced. Having two people be the same exact person at the same time seems like a misread)? Yeah, that sounds fun (oops townie, 11 more choices to go, oops, another townie, wow the odds of us whacking MH have just gone up, high five!!!, oops...). Yeah, you're definitely a genius here Ment, brilliance personified. Ok, is there anyone else to talk to? I'm sure we could keep going if you want us to burn daylight.

[Mentalist]

and before you go off saying i'm waiting for others to "do the heavy lifting", i've been on my feet for 8 hours straight, standing barefoot on sun-baked concrete, with little to no shade. Then i biked home, which is (As google Maps tells me), 26 klicks give or take. and tomorrow i have to do it all again, so forgive me if my head's not exactly in the right place to do math right now.

[Mentalist]

Gust Hubb, on 15 July 2011 - 02:53 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 15 July 2011 - 02:47 AM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 15 July 2011 - 02:30 AM, said:

Ok, great work, you have got critiquing down to a "T." So how do you propose we play? hmmm. Vote for who we don't like today? Roll the dice? Oh I know, let's quote here and there, make a snarky remark, and let other's do the heavy lifting. I still await an idea from you, btw.

I know I'm sounding fairly argumentative myself, but am I right anyone?

yawn. we play the same we would play in a game if *gasp* we DIDN'T have a finder.

you know, look for people we think are acting scummy, and we vote for them. Which also helps pour finders, b/c it narrows the suspect pool and all.

we lose when it's 2:2, no? i'm sure someone can do the math and figure out how many lynches we are allowed before we get to that scenario.

You mean all one of the scum (or maybe two? I'm not convinced. Having two people be the same exact person at the same time seems like a misread)? Yeah, that sounds fun (oops townie, 11 more choices to go, oops, another townie, wow the odds of us whacking MH have just gone up, high five!!!, oops...). Yeah, you're definitely a genius here Ment, brilliance personified. Ok, is there anyone else to talk to? I'm sure we could keep going if you want us to burn daylight.

unless i'm heavily mistaken, the general consensus appears to be, finder killers have a total of 3 shots between them, accounting for half of possible Meng Huos.
guess what? at some point, we will have to lynch. probably better to do it now, while we have 2 finders who are immune to inheritance, then when it's a 1 in 9 odds, which is waht we'll end up with if we keep voting night untill the finders are spent.

[Gust Hubb]

Fair enough. But I slept very little last night (new baby man, 3.5 weeks old and not getting any less fussy), I've got insurance saying they want $1295 for 40 days of insurance for the kid, the internet continues to be craptastic, and I'm tired of listening to the baby scream.

Sounds like we both have had long days. I think we should give it a rest. Stand down, truce, see you tomorrow?

And if it ameliorates for the pissing match, you have my sympathies. I don't envy your day and sorry you have another like it to pain you tomorrow.

[Mentalist]

Gust Hubb, on 15 July 2011 - 03:01 AM, said:

Fair enough. But I slept very little last night (new baby man, 3.5 weeks old and not getting any less fussy), I've got insurance saying they want $1295 for 40 days of insurance for the kid, the internet continues to be craptastic, and I'm tired of listening to the baby scream.

Sounds like we both have had long days. I think we should give it a rest. Stand down, truce, see you tomorrow?

And if it ameliorates for the pissing match, you have my sympathies. I don't envy your day and sorry you have another like it to pain you tomorrow.

lol, no sweat, man. it's a game, remember? "don't take anything personally" is really key to mafia longevity.
i'm willing to call it a day, tomorrow I'm supposed to a get a lift partway to work, so I should have some time to play properly in the morning. good night, peoples.

[Kurt Montandon]

Mentalist, on 15 July 2011 - 02:47 AM, said:

yawn. we play the same we would play in a game if *gasp* we DIDN'T have a finder.

you know, look for people we think are acting scummy, and we vote for them. Which also helps pour finders, b/c it narrows the suspect pool and all.

we lose when it's 2:2, no? i'm sure someone can do the math and figure out how many lynches we are allowed before we get to that scenario.

I'm not entirely adverse to a lynch myself - we have to do it sooner or later. I think it's 50/50 as to whether it's a good idea, or to just let the Finders work one more Night without pitching in.

And I'm sure as hell not going to do any math, I'll leave the heavy lifting on that to Venge, I think.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 2. 13 hours and 39 minutes remaining
12 Players still alive: ansible, Grief, Gust Hubb, HiddenOne, Khellendros, Kurt Montandon, Mentalist, Roldom, Shinrei, Tattersail, twelve, Vengeance

7 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.

4 Votes for twelve ( Vengeance, Khellendros, Gust Hubb, Tattersail )
1 Vote for Vengeance ( Roldom )
2 Votes for Night ( twelve, Shinrei )

Players not voted: ansible, Grief, HiddenOne, Kurt Montandon, Mentalist

[Path-Shaper]

Deep in the jungles of Eight Fan, rumours ran wild of Yan armies headed southward to root out Meng Huo. In the Nanman bastion of Tulong Cave, the populace assembled around an ancient tree stump. The stump was twenty spans tall without any sign of a branch ever having extended from it. Legend told that the tree had been cut down to a single span by the famed Nanman warrior Tuhuang and his great blade Wind Tortoise centuries ago but the stump had continued to grow defiantly while the sword eventually rusted and was thrown away. Atop this stump sat the king of Tulong Cave, King Duosi. The assembled populace shouted up to their king asking if he would follow Meng Huo in rebellion or accept Yan rule.

Duosi, a wizened mystic known for his roundabout explanations and love of hallucinogenic mushrooms, cast an imperious gaze over all his subjects, shook his fist at some passing monkeys and said: "The soldiers of the Yan dynasty are accustomed to their plains, fields, mountains, rivers, deserts, crags, mountains, valleys, plains, seas... what? Yes yes, they have things that are sparse! With plants, yes yes yes. We are men and women of the jungle! Especially the women, look how hairy they are! The Yan women aren't hairy at all. Do you think they'd give me one if I surrendered? Oh don't tell my wife that- where was I? Oh yes. They have smooth jungles and we have hairy seas but look I have no moustachios to twirl now do I my people?!" The crowd was confused. With a mighty intake of breath King Duosi roared at the passing monkeys and suddenly a great moustachio grew out of his face in a heartbeat. "And that is that!" he said, then retired.

[Path-Shaper]

I probably won't check in again for another 8 hours or so. Good night all!

[ansible]

After reading the OP over...and over... and then using Wikipedia, I think I agree that there is only 1 MH at a time. Whether or not there is a symp, or maybe the successor knows he is next in line... possible. It makes sense as a game mechanic because it defends against the finders revealing. However...since the finders can only get a max of 3 kills, lynching MH 3 times is going to be hard if it's always a 1/n chance to hit him, with n players alive. This is compounded by the finder info being no good after MH dies. With only 1 scum, it will be really easy for town to mess this up. If this is the case, maybe there is no need for a defense against finders revealing, because that's actually the weaker play in this situation. Here's why.

Math time:

As others have said, I don't think there is any scenario where town can lynch RI 6 times and still win. There's just no way to do it. 5 is the max.

There is only one scenario where we can lynch 5 RI and win, and it involves a finder-kill as the 6th MH kill. (This is why the finders should not reveal.) (These are WCS examples depending on the lynch order. If at any time we lynch MH 3 times before lynching 5 RI, town should win through proper use of finder-kills.)

Exhibit A) If 5 RI are lynched before any MH die, and then the 3 finder-kills are used, 4 players will be alive - 3 RI, 1 MH. Even if MH is lynched every night, the 3rd lynch to make 6 MH kills is impossible. After 2 MH lynches, 1 RI and 1 MH will be left, and the only way for town to win would be the MH self-voting (not likely...). Town loses.

Exhibit B) If 3 finder-kills are used before any lynches, and then we lynch 5 RI before we lynch 3 HM, town loses for the same reasons as above. 2 players left, no way to lynch.

Exhibit C) If we lynch 4 RI and 2 MH (in any order), there will be 6 players left - assuming 1 general still alive, 1 MH, 4 RI. 2 finder-kills brings things down to 4 players - 1 general, 1 MH, 2 RI. If the 5th RI is lynched here, town wins if they lynch MH on the next night. This would still leave 2 players alive, like all the other scenarios, but this time one of them would have a kill left - and I think that would be accepted as legitimate, since no one would self-vote and the day would time out (at which point the finder-kill would kill MH for the 6th time, leaving 1 person alive). Town wins.

Exhibit C.1) The general shouldn't use his finder-kill in this scenario. If he kills MH that means RI was lynched, and now it's down to 2 players and no kills. Town loses. If MH is lynched then the finder-kill failed anyway, and 3 MH lynches total means a night vote and a find = town wins. Only by saving a finder-kill to the end of the game can town still win while lynching 5 RI.

For this reason alone I think the finders should not reveal right now. If they reveal, the MH will always know who his enemy is, while the finder will always be in the dark. Why give scum such a huge advantage? Either town gets lucky with MH lynches or they play it smart in the endgame with finder-kills. The problem with the mathematics of lynching MH is that even though fewer players increases the odds of hitting MH, it's not by that much, and suspicion throws off the random element of everything anyway. It's mafia, after all.

I want to vote Gust Hubb right now for all the cult bullshit he's been spouting, and the argument with ment rubbed me the wrong way. twelve is playing too defeatist for me; I have no problem lynching him, just like yesterday. Either he's a townie who doesn't care or he's trying to play it too cool for school, fool. If people like Gusty Hubby then I'll lay down a vote when I get back before day's end. Otherwise, I'll probably lay it on twelve.

Also, if there are 2 MH or something, I just wasted a lot of time.

[ansible]

As a correction...I guess if we lynch 5 RI before lynching 3 MH, town can still win if a kill is saved, as long every lynch afterwards is MH, until he's been lynched 3 times. That would always leave n players and n-1 kills... Town wins by voting night and using finds. So the order isn't as important as long as one kill is saved till the end.

This post has been edited by ansible: 15 July 2011 - 05:30 AM

[twelve]

well ansible, thanks for repeating what I've been advocating for most of the day except for the part about finder reveals. Yet you say you want to lynch me. Noone has a clue except the finders themselves who has been cleared and who hasn't. I might be cleared by a finder but if they don't tell anyone then the mob will lynch an innocent player when someone on their team was deliberately holding that info back. That means any lynch at this point really only has a 1/12 chance of success.How many times does the first lynch ever hit scum? First 2, 3 attempts? It happens but really how often? When correct lynches are so critical you increase your odds of hitting scum as best as you can before you lynch anyone.


Plus all that talk you did about a finder getting lynched made me sick to my stomach. A lynched finder when scum doesn't have a night kill is robbing town of valuable information plus it is just plain stupid. It should never happen in this situation. Having the finders reveal will give town two people they can trust who can also clear other people (temporarily) that other townies can trust thus narrowing down the field of people to selecct for a lynch. In my senario after two days if no finds are successful then we have 6 people that are free and clear and 6 who are suspects for lynching. If we just randomly select one of those 6 you still have better odds than if you lynch someone without the finders reveal. Factor in the grilling process before lynches and I think that town can get a successful lynch in 2-3 attempts. Wash Rinse & Repeat twice more and then let the finders finish the job. I know most of you are fully ingrained in mafia paranoia but sometimes going against commonly accepted practices is actually the right thing to do.


I propose a compromise. Have 1 finder do a reveal. Then we can at least coordinate finds and narrow our suspect pool down. Our finders could be doing finds on each other or on the same player right now wasting time because they aren't talking to each other.

[Roldom]

with no night kills and the the generals being immune to recruitment before they use there 3rd kill, i dont see what the risk is to the FK, after the first (or at most the 2nd night after) night they have revealed and they can check each other we willknow who is the real FKs

after that, whats the problem? they are in no danger, and can really cut back on our list of potential suspects