[LordofTheFallen]

I was always interested in the Jade Giants in Seven Cities. Detailed right down to a full digestive track, Yath harnessed their power while surrounded by otataral and Heboric was forever changed from merely touching one.

So... what are they? They don't seem to be at all conected with the CG (the jade strangers that heboric briefly visits are different) and their purpose was never summed up. Here we have giant otataral statues buried up past their heads and so detailed that they could have been real, yet nothing more was ever said about them. ever.

Any guesses who or what these things are and how they got to Seven Cities?

[tiam]

Theres loads of them about like theres one under the Wastelands aswell. But they were mentioned as being the CG worshippers that if they had all landed would have destroyed everyone. I did think they were prayers at one point from his own world. But some people in there commented on their own godlessness in HOC.

Your right though hardly covered.

[LordofTheFallen]

Do you mean the ice wastelands?

and I think the Jade Giants, which are solid otataral statues almost, are completely different from the Jade Strangers, which are the tears in the sky left from the CG upon entering the world and are filled with the CG's people who have become trapped. There was no connection between the two other than the name.

[worry]

I'm almost positive their purpose is to remind us all to eat our vegetables.

[worry]

LordofTheFallen, on 05 July 2011 - 11:55 PM, said:

Do you mean the ice wastelands?

and I think the Jade Giants, which are solid otataral statues almost, are completely different from the Jade Strangers, which are the tears in the sky left from the CG upon entering the world and are filled with the CG's people who have become trapped. There was no connection between the two other than the name.

Neither the jade giants nor the jade statues, if there's much difference between them in the first place, are made of otataral. Otataral is a rust/red color, and has a distinctly metallic (not stone) feel, universally throughout the series.

As far as I'm concerned the jade statues already on the planet are just earlier smaller waves of what we see in the rift. Or at least physical artifacts from the same source world. And we see that Heboric communes with those in the rift during HOC, and that he has a special relationship to more jade pieces hitting the world in TBH...he's even able to deflect them somewhat and lessen their destructive force. They're all related to the CG home world.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 06 July 2011 - 12:30 AM

[LordofTheFallen]

The people in the rifts (which are called the Jade Strangers) are indeed related to the CG. They are poeple from his own world that got sucked into the rift with him when he was pulled down. As you said, they are jade peices, not fully built jade statues.
And yes, I know they aren't made of otataral, I was just confused since they were surrounded by otataral and transmitted it into heboric.

Actually, speaking of heboric, he was able to conjure a Jade fist from the ground to capture Korabas. since it's his hand he's obviously stuck there, do you think the jade giants could be prisons? holding terrible powers in their fists?

[Kanese S's]

Until reading DoD/TCG, I always thought they were pieces of Kaminsod.

[Lister of Smeg]

I'm pretty sure all the Jade things are the same. The giants in Seven Cities were ones that arrived long ago and crashed into the ground, creating a whole island of Otataral to counter them. Others landed in the Wastelands, like the one that bursts through Sweetest Sufferance. These ones didn't do too much damage, presumably because they came down in ones and twos.

When Heboric floats out into space in HoC, he sees the same Jade Giants, only a lot of these ones are broken up. He ends up in the hand of one of the Giants. So this is why they would just be jade pieces rather than whole statues. Maybe they've been floating around aimlessly for longer and collided with other planets, leading to their damage.

Now this is pure speculation, but when Heboric is up in space, he sees a massive rift in the air. I assumed at the time that this was the rift the CG got pulled through to land on Wu. But what if it wasn't? The Forkrul Assail want to destroy life on the world so they can start again, and they were opening a huge gate with Akhrast Korvalain. Perhaps that rift in space was the gate, which they opened to suck lots of Jade Giants through so they would all land on Wu and destroy all civilisations while the FA stayed safe and snug in AK. If the Jade Giants had been floating aimlessly through space before, it might explain why only a few of them reached Wu in all the millennia since Kaminsod was pulled down. But then we get a dozen of them in TBH and then another thirteen in DoD/tCG. Why so many at once?

Apologies if that theory is disproved by something in tCG. I haven't reread it yet so it isn't all fresh in my memory.

[LordofTheFallen]

You said that Otataral island was made by a (many?) Giants hitting it, and I think it was written to that extent somewhere too. But in tCG Quick tells Kalam that it was created by a massive unleashing of sorcery. (during the convo about how Korabas was made)

So which was it? Unless the giants created a shitload of sorcery when they landed, which is not likely, they shouldn't have made the Otataral. Could it be pure coincidence that they landed in an ares where A huge magic blast went off?

[tiam]

It seems unlikely it was a coincidence. Id say they may have been brought down in the original Fall which was magically charged. They might well be magical entities in a very general sense drawing on a level of magical energy. Infact ifthere associated with TCG as Crone is then maybe as a consequence of it being there it absorbed the energy around it in a localised way. The only time weve seen these giants are in fairly desolate places (desert, the Wastelands) so maybe they absorb the energy around them creating otateral. That would allow for a 'unleashing of energy' as a large entity falling through one of the largest rituals that brought down a EG would fit the bill.

However that does clash with the Cartheron Crust quote about him saying something along the lines of 'the last time he saw an explosion/event like that it created an island of otateral. In ROTCG I think (MTS is needed)

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I believe it was in TBH but I don't think Crust was refeering to the Otataral Island.

On the other hand Treach's thoughts in MoI seem to imply that the creation of the island had something to do with the First Empire and the shapeshifters.

[LordofTheFallen]

When tCG was brought down it was said that he lander in what is now Korelri and practically destroyed it. So if the spot where the largest chumk of tCG landed didn't create any Otataral, how come the smaller fragments are creating deeserts and wastelends of magic where they land?

[D'rek]

LordofTheFallen, on 07 July 2011 - 07:17 PM, said:

When tCG was brought down it was said that he lander in what is now Korelri and practically destroyed it. So if the spot where the largest chumk of tCG landed didn't create any Otataral, how come the smaller fragments are creating deeserts and wastelends of magic where they land?

Because the Jade Giants =/= pieces of the Crippled God...

[tiam]

Exactly the Jade Giants are different from CG chunks. The CG came through landed largely on Korel while his followers in the JG landed on various continents causing otateral. Seems the most logical option.

[LordofTheFallen]

So the CG landed, caused a massive magical explosion or something, but no Otataral. Then the jade giants/pieces landed and either killed all magic in the area or created a ton of Otataral. Considering how the remaining pieces of the CG (crone and the other ravens) are anti-magic themselves, why didn't they create otataral when he landed.

Also, how were the Jade Giants able to give Heboric the power to make a giant Jade fist simply by touching it?

[worry]

Hmm. Not sure if I can answer all of that, but it was my impression that the Jade Giants didn't destroy sorcery, but were so strong (in some instances at least) that otataral was a natural balance. In the Wastelands though, it was past FA shenanigans (and the death of their god) that made it a magical dead zone.

The great ravens aren't anti-magic so much as they feed on it. Their presence isn't like anti-matter, they just devour magic when they can.

Heboric was already god-touched at that point, I think. Certainly by Fener and by Hood. Not an ascendant but not your average mortal either. I really don't know if the Jade Giants have consciousness -- they apparently have breath, as of ROTCG -- so I don't know if it "chose" him but he was certainly a fitting vessel for its power. I doubt if someone else had touched it that it would have given so freely of that power.

[LordofTheFallen]

but in RotCG yath was able to call upon sorcery from a Jade Giant while deep in a otataral mine. He was absolutely surounded by the stuff, and he still was able to access magic through the Giants.
So where did the magic come from and why did it work while literally submerged in otataral.

[worry]

Otataral supposedly only messes up the K'rulian warrens, not the Elder Warrens, holds, etc. and apparently not foreign magics either. But the reason for this is all debatable, as is the precision of where the lines are drawn. Like a lot of thinks in the series, it's both complicated and blurry around the edges. As far as I can tell, the otataral was a reaction to the statues, and it trapped them without destroying them, since its magic-deadening powers don't apply.

One might say that otataral is effective against draconian magics, which explains the anti-K'rul sourced effects as well as the opposition between Korabas and the other Eleint, but not the Elder Warrens which aren't draconian in nature (I guess? The very basic elemental stuff?).

[LordofTheFallen]

Elder warrens can resist otataral, but only in small amounts. I don't think there is a warren in existance that can be opened while you are buried up to the neck in the stuff.

Same goes for Korabas, normal eleint magic could have resisted a small amount of otataral, but Korabas was soo huge (and completely made of the stuff, more or less) that their magic didn't stand a chance.

But tCG also said that Otataral was a "cure" for the "disease" that he is in this world. He also said that none of the worldly magic, including Otataral, could harm him. So if the Giants are parts of him, it would explain why they are surrounded by it and can still do limited (compared to their size) magic.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the giants are NOT part of the crippled god. they are statues containing his worshippers. i just can't get on board with your idea because everything we've seen points to them being interstellar soul ships.

nonetheless, they must be constructions of magic, they're just too big, and too full of souls. thus, their nature could have reacted with the flesh of the world to create the otataral island. when they're completely encased, their magic is pretty well contained. but when erosion or mining exposes them, that's an out for the mass amounts of energy that must be accompanying these souls. what's more, the statues have passed through the warren of chaos to arrive in Wu (or at least rake thinks that they must have in order for heborics hands to have achieved what they did. i'm inclined to trust him) and chaos would resist otataral as much or more than elder sorcery, which i also think has greater efficacy around otataral than you give it credit for. when kalam and tavore are talking about kalam's choice at the end of tBH, they don't think kalam will be able to kill mallick because his sorcery is elder, and will prevail over kalam's otataral knife.

besides, i don't think the giants are actually doing anything strictly 'magical' when weird things happen around them, they're just trying to empty all those souls out of them so that the CG can embrace them. that's all they ever wanted to do, but every time they got here, otataral sprang up around them, hemming the souls in. it actually makes sense, imo. souls are pure energy, or will, and will is all that keeps them around, while otataral is absolute negation and entropy, ending things and undoing what will has wrought. while adjacent, the two are balanced. when one is exposed it behaves differently. and so heboric can draw the power out of the jade finger, and otataral mined from the ground will resist sorcery. there's simply too much energy in the jade statues for ambient otataral to have any effect on them. they have to be completely cut-off from the world, or they will effect it.

edit: alternately, i have a theory that the first empire ritual created all the otataral by using the power of the giants to fuel the ritual. the backlash of power being enough to tear apart the fragment of KE and drive all the inhabitants insane. or maybe the shattering of the warren and the ritual were all that created the otataral and the giants landed later. or maybe this all happened so far in the past that we'll never know the truth. or MAYBE abalieno will finally convince SE to speak in detail about all these mysterious things. he's certainly trying pretty hard.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 12 July 2011 - 04:04 AM