[Abalieno]

Huh, I haven't read this topic in detail because I try to avoid spoilers, but:

In MoI it is said that the Otataral island was created by some ritual of the First Empire gone wrong. They caused it. Maybe they caused it by triggering some kind of effect from the Jade statue, but it's certain that it's them triggering the effect.

Then, the impression I got is that the Crippled God was a world/god like Burn. So within it there are other people coming from that world. As if Burn and so the Malazan world collided with another.

The other idea is that there was a huge rent where other world/gods were plunging towards. So gods separated from the Crippled God. Like other dimensions. So the other statues can't be fragments of the CG, they have to be separate entities (that's why the people within speak of different worlds, like some kind of multiverse).

[LordofTheFallen]

I never really thought that the giants were fragments of the CG, mainly because they were in different areas.
The Giants seem to be surrounded by otataral, or at least magical wastelands wherever they are found, yet no otataral is found on Korel, where the CG was pulled down and landed. So the Giants couldn't be fragments because they arent pressent in the area where the CG was fragmented.

Basically they are a huge loose end that Erikson never wrapped up.

[amphibian]

LordofTheFallen, on 12 July 2011 - 05:24 PM, said:

I never really thought that the giants were fragments of the CG, mainly because they were in different areas.
The Giants seem to be surrounded by otataral, or at least magical wastelands wherever they are found, yet no otataral is found on Korel, where the CG was pulled down and landed. So the Giants couldn't be fragments because they arent pressent in the area where the CG was fragmented.

Basically they are a huge loose end that Erikson never wrapped up.

There's a quote in TCG that says where the Crippled God comes from, every god is a Shield Anvil. The jade giants are full of the souls of worshippers who want to be embraced by their god. The giants are a tiny bit animate - when awakened - and seek to find their god here for the embrace.

When Kaminsod was reassembled and killed, his soul was released and the jade giants falling towards Wu were averted - because their god is now back.

I don't think that this is a dangling loose end as you make it out to be. Perhaps we could have had more information about them in the books, but it's not like Silverfox or Torvald Nom showing up with Blue Moranth gifts...

[LordofTheFallen]

First, there are two distinct things with the name "Jade". the Jade Giants and the Jade Strangers.
The Jade Strangers are found in the sky, and they are the ones full of the CGs people and stuff (remember Heboric went into the sky when he entered one).
The Jade Giants are found buried completely in the ground, and are able to give people (Heboric, Yath) random powers that can't be explained. They also seem to kill any conventional magic in the surrounding area.

It seems that these two are greatly confused, since the Giants aren't mentioned since i think HoC and the Strangers are mentioned all throughout TCG. I stress the fact that the Giants, if they were in fact pulled down as a result of the CG, didn't land anywhere remotely close two him. So I think they are very separate things.

[worry]

Where are you getting the notion that the Jade Giants kill magic, btw?

[LordofTheFallen]

I'm getting it from the fact that they are either buried in otataral or in a lifeless area, and the fact that heboric gets Otataral infused into him when he touches one, leading me to believe that they contain otataral within them.

[D'rek]

LordofTheFallen, on 13 July 2011 - 12:37 AM, said:

I'm getting it from the fact that they are either buried in otataral or in a lifeless area, and the fact that heboric gets Otataral infused into him when he touches one, leading me to believe that they contain otataral within them.

Heboric gets one hand infused with Otataral and another infused with the Jade power. These two forces are said to be opposing each other, implying the Jade is magical. The otataral eventually recedes and the Jade takes over both hands, at which point he is able to perform numerous magical feats...

[worry]

Yah. I think the two main giants we see just happen to be on Otataral Island and the one in the Wastelands, but neither of those places are devoid of magic due to some force exerted by the JGs. And we do get some reports, have no clue when or where in the series, that JGs appear elsewhere on the planet too.

I might have said this already, but as far as I'm concerned, the JGs and the Jade Strangers all originate on CG's homeworld, and are all connected to his worship, jade likely being a holy stone among his worshipers. There seem to be whole statues, possible chunks of statues, and apparently various chunks of stone that may not have been parts of statues (instead buildings/temples/relics etc.?). I'm using Jade Strangers generically to refer to the chunks as well as the souls riding them, btw.

[LordofTheFallen]

So we have found them on otataral island, in Seven Cities, and in the wastelands. basically everywhere except where the CG is. Lets just say that the CGs people become the giants when they hit the ground. So if his people are in the sky above Wu, why are there no Statues in that area? They seem to be everywhere except where the CG is. They aren't mentioned in Korel, where the CG was brought down, and they aren't in Wu, where the CG is chained.

If they are drawn to him, why are there no Giants within a continent of where he is?

[amphibian]

LordofTheFallen, on 13 July 2011 - 06:59 PM, said:

So we have found them on otataral island, in Seven Cities, and in the wastelands. basically everywhere except where the CG is. Lets just say that the CGs people become the giants when they hit the ground. So if his people are in the sky above Wu, why are there no Statues in that area? They seem to be everywhere except where the CG is. They aren't mentioned in Korel, where the CG was brought down, and they aren't in Wu, where the CG is chained.

If they are drawn to him, why are there no Giants within a continent of where he is?

The CG fell in pieces all over the planet. His heart fell in Korel, but chunks of him were scattered throughout Wu. The giants landed in several different spots and there was that jade giant - that Precious Thimble raised and Draconus killed - which was very close to Kolanse.

Furthermore, let's see how accurate your gigantic statue landings are when you're aiming from a rent to another dimension waaaaay out there in space. It's not exactly like a game of darts here.

Are we going to answer every goddamn possible objection you can come up with?

This post has been edited by amphibian: 14 July 2011 - 02:52 AM

[LordofTheFallen]

[/quote]
Are we going to answer every goddamn possible objection you can come up with?
[/quote]

Well, yes. This is a forum...

And to my defence they are breifly mentioned throughout four 900 page books, I really don't have the time or patience to look up each section (for instance, I have no recolection of the PT/Draconus takedown, and so I don't know where to look).
And on that note, didn't he get free and immediately meet with Ublala, then go and kill those two gods? When did this happen?

[amphibian]

LordofTheFallen, on 14 July 2011 - 12:24 AM, said:

And to my defence they are breifly mentioned throughout four 900 page books, I really don't have the time or patience to look up each section (for instance, I have no recolection of the PT/Draconus takedown, and so I don't know where to look).
And on that note, didn't he get free and immediately meet with Ublala, then go and kill those two gods? When did this happen?

I'll break this into two parts:

1) Do you remember the scene where Olar Ethil confronts the remnants of Master Quell's Trygalle Trade Guild band to take away Onos Toolan's children? She kills the undead wolf and makes Mappo, Gruntle, Setoc and all of the others back down, while Torrent takes Stavi and Stori to follow Olar Ethil. After that, the group is stranded in the midst of nowhere - still somewhat near Kolanse - and Precious Thimble decides to try and get water and/or a portal to somewhere else. Her magical efforts rouse a Jade Giant beneath them, which rises up and kills Sweetest Sufferance with its hand. The others are in pain from the magic the Giant is emanating and Amby knocks out Precious Thimble to try and stop things, but the Giant keeps coming. Draconus shows up and uses his sword to nearly cut the Giant's head in half.

2) The very first thing Draconus did once he was released from Dragnipur was to show up amidst the battle in which Tool killed himself. His arrival basically obliterated everyone there. After that he found himself traveling towards the convergence at the Spire and ran into Ublala Pung, who was also going that way. At times Draconus would disappear to get food or go on random errands. The two eventually acquired a lone Barghast tribeswoman as a traveling companion. Draconus left Ublala at one point to take care of the Jade Giant and then left Ublala permanently to go after Kilmandaros and Setchul Lath.

[Daemonwolf]

I'm fascinated as to why some people think the Jade Giants have anything to do with Kaminsod... I've repeatedly seen the "landed nowhere near him" thought, but I don't believe that's accurate. As i seem to recall from my many re-reads, when Kaminsod was pulled down to Wu from his home world his body and power was shattered. Several different effects of that have been found across the planet. I do believe the "whirlwind goddess" warren was attributed to being a portion of the power broken away from Kaminsod, which places Jade Giants, you guessed it, all around one portion of his destroyed essence/body in the Raraku desert.

just my two cents...

This post has been edited by Daemonwolf: 14 July 2011 - 03:59 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Daemonwolf, on 14 July 2011 - 03:58 AM, said:

I'm fascinated as to why some people think the Jade Giants have anything to do with Kaminsod... I've repeatedly seen the "landed nowhere near him" thought, but I don't believe that's accurate. As i seem to recall from my many re-reads, when Kaminsod was pulled down to Wu from his home world his body and power was shattered. Several different effects of that have been found across the planet. I do believe the "whirlwind goddess" warren was attributed to being a portion of the power broken away from Kaminsod, which places Jade Giants, you guessed it, all around one portion of his destroyed essence/body in the Raraku desert.

just my two cents...

The whirlwind goddess was using a piece of sundered Emurlahn. Not chaotic power, which is what Kaminsod's magic seems to be most comparative too.

[Daemonwolf]

HoosierDaddy, on 14 July 2011 - 04:05 AM, said:

Daemonwolf, on 14 July 2011 - 03:58 AM, said:

I'm fascinated as to why some people think the Jade Giants have anything to do with Kaminsod... I've repeatedly seen the "landed nowhere near him" thought, but I don't believe that's accurate. As i seem to recall from my many re-reads, when Kaminsod was pulled down to Wu from his home world his body and power was shattered. Several different effects of that have been found across the planet. I do believe the "whirlwind goddess" warren was attributed to being a portion of the power broken away from Kaminsod, which places Jade Giants, you guessed it, all around one portion of his destroyed essence/body in the Raraku desert.

just my two cents...

The whirlwind goddess was using a piece of sundered Emurlahn. Not chaotic power, which is what Kaminsod's magic seems to be most comparative too.

Which book was that explained in? Not being critical, but wondering how long before I get back to reading about that part... It's been about 2 months since my most recent re-read of the earlier novels, and while I know Emurlahn was sundered and floating around as well, I thought that it was Kaminsod's breaking that added the unhinged factor to Sha'ik.... I;m probably wrong or read it wrong/(twisted it in my head).

Thanks for the catch either way HoosierDaddy!

[HoosierDaddy]

It's one of those things where you have to add 2 and 2 together.




Direct from the forum Encyclopedia:


'The gift of knowledge,' Heboric muttered. 'The Whirlwind Goddess whispers in the Chosen One's ear. There are secrets within the Warren of Shadow, secrets containing truths that are relevant to the Whirlwind itself.'

'What do you mean?'

Heboric shrugged. His bag was nearly full. 'Alas, I possess my own prescient knowledge.' And little good it does me. 'The sundering of an ancient warren scattered fragments throughout the realms. The Whirlwind Goddess possesses power, but it was not her own, not at first. Just one more fragment, wandering lost and in pain. What was the goddess, I wonder, when she first stumbled onto the Whirlwind? Some desert tribe's minor deity, I suspect. A spirit of the summer wind, protector of some whirlpool spring, possibly. One among many, without question. Of course, once she made that fragment her own, it did not take long for her to destroy her old rivals, to assert complete, ruthless domination over the Holy Desert.' -Heboric - (HoC UK Mmpb, p.241)

Edit: Copying it over has had font color problems....

Here's the link: http://encyclopediam...irlwind-Goddess

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 14 July 2011 - 04:19 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

HoC chains explains pretty clearly that the battle in the oasis was for possession of the fragment of emurlahn. eventually raraku itself claimed it (that's my interpretation), but for a while there, bidithal, the whirlwind goddess, febryl, and anybody with an ounce of treachery was after it. shaik reborn was unhinged because her goddess was, not because of the CG's influence, though that was there too, through bidithal.

[Daemonwolf]

After reading the quotes and information available, I can see why I've thought the whirlwind was a fractured part of Kaminsod from his fall. Could have sworn it was mentioned again in a later book as well. It's interpretable in my opinion, since Kaminsod was brought down to finish Kallor, and Kallor claims to predate the Imass, and ultimately it was a broken spirit of an Imass that became the whirlwind..... I dunno, conjecture again on my part.... I recognize the validity of your points though. Thank yall, I'll see if this helps make additional sense on my current re-read.

[Daemonwolf]

as a follow up, I found the HoC reference to it being Emurlahn.... on the same page I found reference to Emurlahn being able to merge/infiltrate other warrens and combine with other sources.... i dunno, possible that its both emurlahn and 'other' which is why it is trying to manifest itself and is also "broken/imperfect" kinda like much to do with Kaminsod's presence on Wu (this is purely speculation)

http://encyclopediam...Kurald-Emurlahn

[worry]

Well what makes all that even more confusing is that Kaminsod is his surname. His first name is, maddeningly enough, Warren.