[Migol]

I'll note that the Bridgeburners successfully fought the boles when they were allied with the Crimson Guard, Tiste Andii etc. (more or less...we never got much info on the Blackdog swamp affair, which is -tragic-, it sounds fascinating)

Judging from that, and what we've seen in the early books, the boles have their "Berserk" mode, but it takes a lot out of them and reduces them to a near animal state of mind. Whiskeyjack said that for the most part they played the part of hillybillys in terms of sneaking around, stealing supplies, and throwing those weird but tasty sap-cakes in everyones faces. And every once in a while, they decided to stand and fight, which is when things got really nasty.

Again, given that the Bridgeburners prevailed, I'd surmise that once again Moranth munitions and Malazan marines trumped the boles, along with various ascendants, gods, ancient soletaken, etc.

This post has been edited by Migol: 27 June 2011 - 01:35 PM

[Migol]

As to the Shi'gal assasin, it could undoubtedly take most normal humans in a 1v1, and given the element of surprise could probably off most anyone if it swooped in from the air.

Having said that, I doubt very much they'd have much luck against the preternatural toughness and speed of a forkrul assail, and Jaghut seem to be at least as strong and fast as assail (Or Hood's really that big of a badass in terms of strength and speed, and not just magical power). Not to mention that Omtose Phellack seemed to work great on the Nah'ruk, and you'd figure that's partly "lizards are weak against cold" happening. Against the tlan imass likewise it'd come down to whether it could surprise one; in a no-surpise fight the Tlan imass have very good speed, extremely sharp and unbreakable weapons, and millenia of fighting experience; it'd be possible for the Shigal to crush one, but it only has it's hands and talons against a razor sharp weapon...not good, probably could crush one's skull if it was willing to take mortal wounds.

That said, the Shi'gal could probably again destroy mortal Imass and non-munition/magical humans with ease.

[Sinisdar Toste]

mmm, a little of topic, but i'm not so sure the BB's did anything successfully against the boles. that engagement only broke off once brood recruited the mott irregulars into his army, iirc. WJ speaks about it near the end of MoI.

[MTS]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 28 June 2011 - 05:30 PM, said:

mmm, a little of topic, but i'm not so sure the BB's did anything successfully against the boles. that engagement only broke off once brood recruited the mott irregulars into his army, iirc. WJ speaks about it near the end of MoI.

Not quite. It only ended when Dujek pulled both the Bridgeburners and the Gold Moranth out of Mott Wood. By that time Brood had already contacted them and drawn them into his army. But you're right, the Mott Irregulars proved more than a match for both the Bridgeburners and the Gold Moranth. One might even say they...Bole'd them over.

[Abyss]

 Bauchelain the Evil, on 26 June 2011 - 08:56 AM, said:

...
First of all, I believe it was implied that the Jaghuts in that town were a watered version of a true jaghut.

Not quite. They were variations of jaghut, but not diluted.

Quote

Do you really believe the Bole brothers would survive someone like raest?Really?

Well it's sort of an open question whether the Boles as of the MBF aren't themselves diluted from whatever they were designed to be. And regardless they're still human.

That said, we don't know just what the Jaghut originally designed them for. if it was taking out other jaghut, then maybe.

 Gust Hubb, on 26 June 2011 - 06:02 PM, said:

...Has SE or any other author toyed with the alternative indirect uses of magic? If this too tangential, please, let me know an I will start it (or find someone's original thread along these lines). ...

Pretty sure it's been done, at a minimum by QB at Coral.

Quote

I am not sure we got to see the SA's full potential though. I mean, it was designed to be super incredible and we mostly saw it being buffeted about by various surprising entities. ...

As of when we see Gu'rull, it appears that Shi'gal are only being used to protect the Matron and take her out if she loses her shit.

QB suggests that historically Shi'gal had other roles, and Gu'rull's general effectiveness as a scout, killer and kidnapper suggests they were probably very good at those things.

That said, set against another Che'malle clan with its own J'an, Sentinels, Shi'gal and so on, the effectiveness might be less.

[Tsundoku]

 Gust Hubb, on 26 June 2011 - 06:02 PM, said:

I am not sure we got to see the SA's full potential though. I mean, it was designed to be super incredible and we mostly saw it being buffeted about by various surprising entities. And what are we using as a means of rating dangerousness? Is it all out awesomeness of power like holds versus warrens, or is it more who has more brains times power?

There's that theme of "overconfident old badasses get a nasty shock when up against new badasses" seen elsewhere through the series. Obsolescence or anachronism?

This post has been edited by Sombra: 29 June 2011 - 09:37 AM

[Gothos]

Didn't Karsa beat up a SA in Ugarat (or wherever) in a wrestling match?

[MTS]

That was a K'Chain Nah'Ruk, actually. Karsa vs. a Shi'gal would be a laughably short match.

This post has been edited by MTS: 29 June 2011 - 09:45 AM

[Gothos]

Ya think? QuoteFu please.

[MTS]

 Gothos, on 29 June 2011 - 09:47 AM, said:

Ya think? QuoteFu please.

Certainly.

Quote

Standing beside the pit was a reptilian monstrosity, two-legged, the hanging arms oversized and overlong, talons scraping the pavestones. It was tailed, but that tail was stunted and thick. The broad-snouted jaws were crowded with interlocking rows of dagger-long fangs, above them flaring cheekbones and brow-ridges protecting deep-set eyes that glistened like wet stones on a strand. A serrated crest bisected the flat, elongated skull, pale yellow above the dun green hide. The beast reared half again as tall as the Toblakai.

Quote

She cut through the lining of the first of three stomachs, then moved quickly back as the acids poured out. The blade of her knife sizzled and she watched as pitting etched into the iron surface. More hissing sounds, from the stone floor. Her eyes began watering.
Movement from the stomach, and Samar rose and took a step back. Worms were crawling out. A score, wriggling then dropping to the muddy stone. The colour of blued iron, segmented, each as long as an index finger. She glanced down at the crumbling knife in her hand and dropped the instrument, then collected wooden tongs from her satchel, moved to the edge of the acid pool, reached down and retrieved one of the worms.
Not a worm. Hundreds of legs, strangely finned, and, even more surprising, the creatures were mechanisms. Not living at all, the metal of their bodies somehow impervious to the acids. The thing twisted about in the grip of the tongs, then stopped moving. She shook it, but it had gone immobile, like a crooked nail. An infestation? She did not think so. No, there were many creatures that worked in concert. The pond of stomach acid had been home to these mechanisms, and they in turn worked in some fashion to the demon’s benefit.

Blued-iron, Blueiron...gah, I never ceased to be amazed at the little clues he's thrown in there. Anyway, as you can see, no mention of wings, not nearly tall enough and has a stunted tail.

[Gothos]

Bah. Well, from the description of that fight, if that was a single rank-and-file short-tail, they got seriously downplayed by DoD. Unless they too had different breeds like KCCM, though I don't think we have any indication of that.


Gothos, seriously disappointed.

[Ulrik]

 Gothos, on 29 June 2011 - 10:25 AM, said:

Bah. Well, from the description of that fight, if that was a single rank-and-file short-tail, they got seriously downplayed by DoD. Unless they too had different breeds like KCCM, though I don't think we have any indication of that.


Gothos, seriously disappointed.

Well, Karsa macho fought it weaponless. With sword, it would be quicker. Cleaner. And ha isnt type and height to do harmstringing like Fid and spol did:)

[Gothos]

The way that lizard fought, the KCCN in DoD should've just went all-out wrestling and bury the Bonehunters under tonnes of mass and they'd hardly bat an eye to win. It's just too big of a leap.

[Aptorian]

You have to consider that the Nahruk that had been imprisoned in that 7Cs keep, may not have been a "vanilla" Nahruk. It could have been a Nahruk of importance. A forgotten warrior or maybe even ascendant. Why imprison a normal Nahruk after all?

As for Karsa vs the Shigal. I think if Karsa had his blade it would be an interesting fight. If he was unarmed I think he might not live unless he managed to break the Shigals neck before it tore him in half.

[MTS]

 Gothos, on 29 June 2011 - 12:27 PM, said:

The way that lizard fought, the KCCN in DoD should've just went all-out wrestling and bury the Bonehunters under tonnes of mass and they'd hardly bat an eye to win. It's just too big of a leap.

That lizard was alone, facing a single opponent. You can't make the comparison between that and a phalanx of Nah'Ruk facing a Malazan legion, it's just not possible.

[Aptorian]

But you are allowed to wonder how the Assail controlled humans managed to form any kind of defence against thousands of Ve'gath, who are even bigger than Nahruk and wield weapons bigger than a human being.

[Abyss]

 Gothos, on 29 June 2011 - 10:25 AM, said:

Bah. Well, from the description of that fight, if that was a single rank-and-file short-tail, they got seriously downplayed by DoD. Unless they too had different breeds like KCCM, though I don't think we have any indication of that.


Gothos, seriously disappointed.

Actually, after DoD, i seriously doubt whatever Karsa fought in TB was a Nah'ruk.

The thing Karsa fought was huge... it grabs him in its hands and at another point he jumps on its back.

Check the description of the shi'gal... they ALSO have a 'short tail'. I think it's way more likely Karsa fought a Shi'gal or some other Che'malle variation a creative Matron cooked up and the NO's locked in the basement.

[MTS]

 Abyss, on 29 June 2011 - 01:56 PM, said:

 Gothos, on 29 June 2011 - 10:25 AM, said:

Bah. Well, from the description of that fight, if that was a single rank-and-file short-tail, they got seriously downplayed by DoD. Unless they too had different breeds like KCCM, though I don't think we have any indication of that.


Gothos, seriously disappointed.

Actually, after DoD, i seriously doubt whatever Karsa fought in TB was a Nah'ruk.

The thing Karsa fought was huge... it grabs him in its hands and at another point he jumps on its back.

Check the description of the shi'gal... they ALSO have a 'short tail'. I think it's way more likely Karsa fought a Shi'gal or some other Che'malle variation a creative Matron cooked up and the NO's locked in the basement.

Certainly the thing was huge, and bigger than a regular Nah'Ruk. Karsa is, what, 8-9 feet? Which puts the creature he fought at 12 feet or so. The Nah'Ruk we see in DoD are only about Karsa's height. K'ell Hunters are described as twice the height of a man (so probably 12 feet) and a Shi'Gal as double that again - so you're looking at a Shi'Gal topping 24 feet, which is a hell of a lot bigger than the creature Karsa fought. I have just remembered the wing point is irrelevant (they were a new invention of Acyl's), but I can't recall ever reading that Gu'Rull had a stubbed tail either, do you have the quote handy? I had a quick look and couldn't find anything specific about his tail.

It could've been a crazy KKCM breed, and was certainly no regular Nah'Ruk, but it was definitely not a Shi'Gal as we know them. Just doesn't fit.

[Ulrik]

IMO it was only Nahruk, deformed by many many many many many years of imprisonment...and nanobot recreation.

Also...poor guy was weponless too...still unfair fight Karsa.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think it likely that the nah'ruk in DoD were inferior versions of the one karsa fought in tBH. that nah'ruk was imprisoned there, probably from the days in which sky-keeps were trying to invade 7C and were stopped by the deragoth. gesler thinks that they've been 'bred down' to be just automatons in the greater hive-mind, and they don't even remember how to build sky-keeps. i'm making the assumption here that the nah'ruk have shorter generations than che'malle, and have become stunted from centuries of living in sky-keeps and floating around in god knows where, getting more and more inbred all the time.