[Coco with marshmallows]

Mark Lawrence, on 12 April 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 11 April 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

That makes more sense than anything I was saying...

Also more sense than anything I was saying... this will be my explanation from now on.

This is getting Meta as all hell now....

[Aptorian]

If the books are set in Fraggle Rock, I would actually equate the humans as the Dozers and the... wizards? as the Fraggles. They seem quite adamant at tearing down what ever the Dozers are building.

Also now I have a mental image of Jorg as Uncle Traveling Matt (had to look that name up), traveling out into the post-human landscapes, commenting on the nice Builder Suns and all the people he murdered. Of course he's writing this on a post card and mailing it back to the Brothers.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Still reading through King of Thorns. It's definitely slow going, though that's not the book's fault.

I found these two reviews while googling to find the Nuban's backstory (Despite remembering the character, I had forgotten where we left him at the end of the previous book). While I don't necessarily agree with them, I thought they evaluated the books from both an extremely literary and philosophical perspective, and that Mark Lawrence might be interested in reading them (if he hasn't already).

Prince of Thorns review
King of Thorns review

Additionally, it seems the author of the above reviews is someone with whom Mark has previously had a run-in (the E.M Edwards person).

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 14 April 2014 - 12:39 PM

[Aptorian]

Urgh. I dislike that guys motives. How many powerful, influential women have we known in European history who were not born to a throne/inherited her husbands industry, compared to the many more men that litter the history pages? How many women knights and guards or highwaymen were there? How many female church officials and Popes? European history is dominated by men because when the world collapses, might becomes right once again. The strongest assume power and even equipped with a blade, few women are physically equipped to face a man in a fight. The strong and the brutal suppress and use the people who are weaker or less aggressive then they are.

These are facts. Not misogyny. It's a realistic assumption. Bleak, depressing and often cruel, sure, but being a woman or gay or a gypsy or what ever a century or more ago just wasn't much fun. The Thorns universe is not a nice place, I don't see any reason to why Lawrence should be forced to tweak social constructs for the sake of the morally sensitive.

This post has been edited by Apt Hoc: 14 April 2014 - 02:26 PM

[HiddenOne]

Because it's not Politically Correct, and we all know that art in general must be rendered bland and inoffensive to protect the next generation of drones

[amphibian]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 14 April 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Still reading through King of Thorns. It's definitely slow going, though that's not the book's fault.

I found these two reviews while googling to find the Nuban's backstory (Despite remembering the character, I had forgotten where we left him at the end of the previous book). While I don't necessarily agree with them, I thought they evaluated the books from both an extremely literary and philosophical perspective, and that Mark Lawrence might be interested in reading them (if he hasn't already).

Prince of Thorns review
King of Thorns review

Additionally, it seems the author of the above reviews is someone with whom Mark has previously had a run-in (the E.M Edwards person).

I disagree enormously with the overall approach that E.M. Edwards takes in the reviews. Edwards misrepresents several things in the books, takes Lawrence to task for racist/sexist things that Lawrence isn't doing, intentionally or otherwise, and presents himself in a jerkish, pretentious way that essentially obviates any actual criticism or perspective Edwards might have.

I don't want to get too much into the nitty gritty of it, but I have to say I'm increasingly aware of the "baked-into"-ness of modern society and racism, sexism, classism and other immoral/unethical practices. Writers like Ta-Nehisi Coates and my friends in real life or in the digital world have pushed me to be aware of these things, challenged my words and actions when they were wrong and despite the bleakness at times, we've not given up working for better things.

Edwards isn't being someone who actually helps this process of working for a better world in doing what he does with the Thorn reviews. It's good to have divergent views, stern critics and so on, but the content of the reviews/perspective isn't accurate, isn't precise and really serves only to encourage the crowd of readers who are best typified by those who tossed aside Donaldson's Covenant books once "the event" happens early on in the first book or those who read Karsa's long point of view and drop the Malazan series. That's not a good crowd of readers to encourage.

There's a concatenation of reasons why authors have their characters do nasty things and for Lawrence, Erikson and others, sometimes the nasty and evil things done by characters is done to make the reader question the reader's own morality, feelings and concepts. This is supposed to be unsettling and uncomfortable writing to read. It pushes buttons, not gratuitously, but in order to have the reader come out a better, wiser person who's been told a great story.

[Tiste Simeon]

Quote

There have been authors such as Robert E. Howard and H.P. Lovecraft whose own misogyny and well documented racism are inseparable from an understanding and indeed, an appreciation of their work. We would have never had Lovecraft's Deep Ones or much of his crawling alien horrors without his pathological fear of miscegenation.

So, if I understand this correctly, they are racist, but that's alright because they write prettily while being racist?

EDIT: Also, he called it Prince of Thrones. Oh dear.
EDIT AGAIN: Stopped reading because there were so many things making me go "you missed the point there..." like the whole "All the black people in the novel are villains!" Erm. It seems to me, with a very few exceptions, every single freaking character in the book is a villain of some sort or another! Also, it is flipping long and the guy obviously thinks himself the only remaining bastion of taste and intellect... Now reading his comments in the other review. He's an idiot who loves himself a bit too much.

This post has been edited by Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon: 14 April 2014 - 05:11 PM

[amphibian]

Reading the not-good Nietzsche/King of Thorns review, I'm actually reminded of that dude Abalieno from a while ago in terms of stylistic expression. However, Abalieno had the virtues of actually getting what Erikson was doing with the characters and story and eventually, after long months, realizing he was being a jerk with this or that line in what he wrote and eased off it.

This guy just doesn't get it:

Quote

Rather, I’m interested in reading like a loser*, or at least someone who acknowledges that the text may be hostile to them. That it may place the reader in some difficulty when it comes to reconciling its aims with one’s own. That comprehension of its philosophy is not so much to be embraced but atomized. That it should be held at arms length, with tongs, perhaps. And above all, that a sympathetic reading of King of Thorns should not be accommodated but resisted.

* He defines "reading like a loser" as imposing the viewpoint of someone already oppressed in some form upon himself and then proceeding from there.

The concept of identifying with those oppressed or discriminated against is great. However, it's stepping over the lines of propriety to purposely make every read an experience in reader-self flagellation or turning the experiences of being oppressed into some sort of tawdry "Look at me, I'm doing this the right way over here" voyeuristic perspective. That's turning a good thing into... something wrong.

It's also problematic that Edwards doesn't have a good handle of what exactly is the oppression, what is the intent and impact of the characters and the story and can't find ways to nicely communicate viewpoints or simply express viewpoints that don't presuppose things such as "everybody likes Nietzsche" or that "perpetuating the white gamer society is indeed what the author wants".

[amphibian]

Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 14 April 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

Erm. It seems to me, with a very few exceptions, every single freaking character in the book is a villain of some sort or another!

That's a great way to put it.

That's what Edwards missed. The characters are supposed to give us a button-pushing mix of charisma, action, uncertainty and self-questioning. Actually reading the book doesn't reinforce a white gamer society, in which a white majority who play video games and/or have life in modern society easier than minorities is boosted by the book. The book questions that and takes one particular boy, who is an anti-hero product of near constant abuse and very few checks on behavior, and has that anti-hero boy become crucial to the fate of millions and perhaps the world.

However, the Nuban isn't racist. The self-segregation of the Broken Empire into cultural and ethnic groups isn't racist.

What is racist is stuff like this from a NY Times interview http://www.nytimes.c...hion.html?_r=0:

Quote

The Hanley Mellon line will have 10 pieces of clothing, including a coat and blouses meant to be wardrobe staples for a jet-set life, priced from $250 to $2,000. Each collection will be inspired by a different place in the world, with New York City being the first.

And then, who knows?

“I’ve never been to Africa, but I feel like I have this deep affinity for it,” Ms. Hanley Mellon said. “I’ve read every Hemingway, we collect Peter Beard, I’ve watched ‘Out of Africa.’ It touches your soul to visit and smell the smells, and you can’t recreate the experience without immersing yourself.”

Of course, being mobile has many connotations in the age of new media, which Mr. Mellon feels ambivalent about. “In the old days you’d have to travel to India or China for inspiration, and these days you’ve just got Pinterest boards and you can create looks from home,” he said. He does have an Instagram account, asliceofmellon, despite believing that “technology has made us lazy.”

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

amphibian, on 14 April 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

What is racist is stuff like this from a NY Times interview http://www.nytimes.c...hion.html?_r=0:

Quote

“I’ve never been to Africa, but I feel like I have this deep affinity for it,” Ms. Hanley Mellon said. “I’ve read every Hemingway, we collect Peter Beard, I’ve watched ‘Out of Africa.’ It touches your soul to visit and smell the smells, and you can’t recreate the experience without immersing yourself.”

Is that racism though, or just ignorance? (I don't think they're one and the same, as some do).

It seems like she believes in the rustic "Ancient Africa" and the noble savage trope, which the media mentioned portrayed. But just because she's misinformed, I don't think that necessarily makes her racist.

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 14 April 2014 - 05:46 PM

[amphibian]

Whisperzzz, it is both racist and ignorant.

She takes looking at some of Beard's photos, reading Hemingway's books relating to the Serengeti regions of Africa and watching one movie about a crazy Danish couple in South Africa to give her a "deep affinity" and understanding of the continent and its inhabitants sufficient to inspire fashionista clothing.

It's a very strange thing for me to point disapprovingly at a woman who's built herself a clothing company - which is hard to do, even if funded by old family money through her husband - for inadvertently saying a racist and ignorant thing about an entire continent. Yet the language she uses and the manner and context in which she says these things should set off warning bells all over. She's not imputing to have solutions to the problems faced by Africans or trying to do a "white man's burden" thing, but what she's doing is expressing intent of cultural appropriation in an oblivious manner.

Hanley-Mellon being racist here doesn't mean she's a racist forever - but it does mean she'd better take a deep look at herself and change a few things about the way she approaches things.

To loop this back to Lawrence, I'd be up for more women characters in his books. I think that's upcoming in The Red Queen's War, as it's sort of imputed in the title that there will be a Red Queen firmly enmeshed in things. But I don't think he's dismissive, creating caricatures or perpetuating misogyny in his treatment of women characters in the Thorns books. Just about all of the women he writes about have complexity and differing motives to them. They're not simple throwaways and Lawrence doesn't engage in cultural appropriation during his books.

Granted, it's hard to initially figure that out with the Nuban, but once Jorg moves south, you see the respect and the twists in what's going on that make the overall story not what E.M. Edwards is talking about.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 14 April 2014 - 07:12 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

Only about 15% though KoT, but I can safely say Katherine is one of my favourite characters so far, and one of the strongest. So yeah, there's that.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

amphibian, on 14 April 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

To loop this back to Lawrence, I'd be up for more women characters in his books. I think that's upcoming in The Red Queen's War, as it's sort of imputed in the title that there will be a Red Queen firmly enmeshed in things. But I don't think he's dismissive, creating caricatures or perpetuating misogyny in his treatment of women characters in the Thorns books. Just about all of the women he writes about have complexity and differing motives to them. They're not simple throwaways and Lawrence doesn't engage in cultural appropriation during his books.

Jeeze, stop being so sexist! It doesn't need to be about a woman; it could be about a character like this who dresses in red:


Gosh...

(great campy movie btw)

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 14 April 2014 - 09:07 PM

[Mark Lawrence]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 14 April 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

and that Mark Lawrence might be interested in reading them (if he hasn't already).

I've not read them and don't plan to.

I do read most of my reviews but these (written after the guy ended up looking a bit silly over his attempt at concern-trolling in those comments) looked likely to be performance art by a guy with an axe to grind, an agenda to pursue, and a small clique as its targeted audience. A clique that spent a while trying to troll me on twitter.

The clincher though was being told that they total around 50,000 words! (Christ! Prince of Thorns was 82,000) ... it's a testament to .... something, but fuck me, who has that much spare time?

If you write tens of thousands of words about a book it's always going to end up saying more about you than whatever tome is in your cross-hairs.

He used to show up in my searches back in the day and I remember the guy seemed unable to go five minutes without talking about Nietzsche. I see Nietzsche cropping up in this thread. Case in point. Nietzsche is mentioned exactly once in the trilogy, mainly to drop a hint about the setting. I know bugger all about the man past '19th century German philosopher with something to say about free will".

[amphibian]

We prefer Dr. Frank N. Furter to Nietzsche here, that's for sure.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Mark Lawrence, on 15 April 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 14 April 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

and that Mark Lawrence might be interested in reading them (if he hasn't already).

I've not read them and don't plan to.

I do read most of my reviews but these (written after the guy ended up looking a bit silly over his attempt at concern-trolling in those comments) looked likely to be performance art by a guy with an axe to grind, an agenda to pursue, and a small clique as its targeted audience. A clique that spent a while trying to troll me on twitter.

The clincher though was being told that they total around 50,000 words! (Christ! Prince of Thorns was 82,000) ... it's a testament to .... something, but fuck me, who has that much spare time?

If you write tens of thousands of words about a book it's always going to end up saying more about you than whatever tome is in your cross-hairs.

He used to show up in my searches back in the day and I remember the guy seemed unable to go five minutes without talking about Nietzsche. I see Nietzsche cropping up in this thread. Case in point. Nietzsche is mentioned exactly once in the trilogy, mainly to drop a hint about the setting. I know bugger all about the man past '19th century German philosopher with something to say about free will".

The entire King of Thorns review looks at the book from a Nietzschen perspective. The author definitely has an obsession.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Okay, just finished King of Thorns. I'm glad you guys convinced me to pick up the second book because I enjoyed the fuck out of it. At first, I was sort of hesitant and had trouble getting into it, but by halfway through I couldn't wait to read more. Now I'm waiting for the mmpb of Emperor of Thorns to be released in a month

[Tiste Simeon]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 18 April 2014 - 01:30 AM, said:

Okay, just finished King of Thorns. I'm glad you guys convinced me to pick up the second book because I enjoyed the fuck out of it. At first, I was sort of hesitant and had trouble getting into it, but by halfway through I couldn't wait to read more. Now I'm waiting for the mmpb of Emperor of Thorns to be released in a month

Glad you said that as I'm finding it a bit of a slog at the moment. Will definitely stick with it.

[Tiste Simeon]

No I don't mind the time jumps it's the way the narration stumbles a bit. But I'm up to halfway and loving it a lot more now!

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 18 April 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

No I don't mind the time jumps it's the way the narration stumbles a bit. But I'm up to halfway and loving it a lot more now!

Yeah, the first half seemed like a jumble of random events that moved pretty slowly, up until Jorg & co. left the marshes where the crazy dead shit occurred. After that, it began to flow much more smoothly.

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 19 April 2014 - 12:10 AM