[Vengeance]

birthSqueeze, on 08 September 2013 - 02:43 AM, said:

I'm giving you guy's all a chance to state your opinions on why it's a great series. Isn't that what this thread is about? If you guy's want me to post counter arguments in a new thread I will.

P.S. I see bitching in other areas of this forum that are a lot worse than what I'm perpetuating.

Go away. I nor anyone else have to state our opinions to you. If you want to bitch go do it in a corner and don't bother people.

[Abyss]

MODGOD NOTICE OF...

bS, i take no particular issue with your upthread posts raising why you don't like the series ...nor do i take issue with the responses it generates... i figure you know enough to expect some flack when you do a negative post in a thread praising a series and you can handle it or leave, and you haven't left.


But this...

birthSqueeze, on 09 September 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

... The idea of an author spying on a thread about their series that's on a forum about a series that has nothing to do with their's is pretty creepy though. lol

... is a load of crap.

I don't care if you meant it as a joke - it's crap and I am responding in my role as admin, modgod, and whatever other authority-invoking forum roles anyone wants to throw in to tell you so.

This is the Otherlit subforum.

It covers everything and anything in non-Malazan books.

In between Malazan books it's probably the most active part of the Forum.

We are LUCKY to have as many authors as we do drop in to post, discuss, and see what we're saying.

Thus... to be brutally clear... i will, with little hesitation, ban and delete the living fuck out of you or anyone who gives an author attitude just for showing up. Consider this your first and only warning and it's public, not pm, to ensure the example is very clear.


You want to disagree with him, his views, other peoples' opinions of his books. Go for it. He also wouldn't be here if he couldn't take it.


But YOU.
DO NOT.
GIVE AN AUTHOR.
ATTITUDE.
...for bothering himself to engage with his readers.


Not in this forum. Not on my watch.


You have a problem with any of this, raise it in PM. Not here.

Carry on.

[Morgoth]

well..

I guess that's that.

[Kaamos]

Morgoth, on 09 September 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

juvenile... Sanderson, whom in my opinion writes in, or very close to, the YA-genre.

(I haven't yet read Lawrence's books, just peeking at the thread...)
I'd say "juvenile/YA-like" belongs to one of the reasons why I like Sanderson as "lighter" fantasy reading in-between ponderous, serious clumps like Malazan and Thomas Covenant. The stories don't require huge mental efforts to follow while still providing enough entertainment, which is a good thing when your brain wishes to take a breathing break from thousands of pages of deep philosophizing. :-D

This post has been edited by Kaamos: 09 September 2013 - 07:51 PM

[Morgoth]

Kaamos, on 09 September 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Morgoth, on 09 September 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

juvenile... Sanderson, whom in my opinion writes in, or very close to, the YA-genre.

(I haven't yet read Lawrence's books, just peeking at the thread...)
I'd say "juvenile/YA-like" belongs to one of the reasons why I like Sanderson as "lighter" fantasy reading in-between ponderous, serious clumps like Malazan and Thomas Covenant. The stories don't require huge mental efforts to follow while still providing enough entertainment, which is a good thing when your brain wishes to take a breathing break from thousands of pages of deep philosophizing. :-D

I've read all of Sanderson's stuff, and only disliked The Way of Kings. I'm just pointing out the discrepancy.

[birthSqueeze]

In that case I guess I'm done with this thread. This whole entire time I was just trying to find some common ground between us which I finally did a little bit. I'm not saying you's guys shouldn't like it. I'm not saying that all. I just wanted someone to admit the series's flaws.

I also have absolutely no issue at all with an author interacting with readers (I would totally do it all the time). Ragecat, If you didn't get my sense of humor this time, maybe you will in the future.

[amphibian]

birthSqueeze, on 09 September 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

I also have absolutely no issue at all with an author interacting with readers (I would totally do it all the time). Ragecat, If you didn't get my sense of humor this time, maybe you will in the future.

Or maybe there wasn't any humor in it at all and you're trying to re-frame your not-awesome conduct as something less offensive.

You could just apologize and we'd all move on. That'd be nice.

I've re-read each book twice and basically the biggest thing I can nitpick stylistically is that Lawrence loves to end a chapter with a poetic phrase from Jorg. It works sometimes and it doesn't work other times. Sometimes it felt like moving on to the next part of the story without the poetry would have suited the more grown-up Jorg, as he left behind the smooth moves and trickery in Prince and King to move towards directness and speed in King and Emperor.

I have more problems with the possible short story with the re-scarring of Jorg than I do the main series and there aren't many with that one.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 10 September 2013 - 01:02 AM

[Mikkelinski]

My biggest hangup was the mathmagicians, which were awesome, but just (from my perspective) very unlikely since I never got the idea that they had builder technology to support their calculations (except for the door to their school / tower) and that kind of predictive modeling (is that the right term even I don't know) requires computers. I think it's a bit weird that I'm sometimes jarred by "unrealistic" elements in my fantasy, but it just felt unsupported in the narrative. Even a throwaway (which I might very well just have overlooked in my read) that they relied on builder technology for the actual calculations and I'd have swallowed it whole, but I got the picture that they did it all in their head and by hand.

As for the "juvenile" bare-boned plot, how so really? Success in your endavours equals a juvenile plot, or is it the "climb to the top" goal that is juvenile? If those are juvenile I'd say capturing a runaway insect while helping a birdman get his wings back is also juvenile, but I'd never call Mieville that all the same... (yes I'm reaching a bit with that one, but I'm getting at the fact that the bare bones mean nothing, so it's an archetype, it doesnt make it juvenille, the wrapping / style / content is what makes something juvenile or not). Also, juvenile just to me carries a hint of negative association (like childish I suppose), so just calling it "youthful" maybe?

[champ]

birthSqueeze, on 09 September 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

I just wanted someone to admit the series's flaws.

Flaws? Nope, no flaws here, move along!

[Cause]

Mikkelinski, on 10 September 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

My biggest hangup was the mathmagicians, which were awesome, but just (from my perspective) very unlikely since I never got the idea that they had builder technology to support their calculations (except for the door to their school / tower) and that kind of predictive modeling (is that the right term even I don't know) requires computers. I think it's a bit weird that I'm sometimes jarred by "unrealistic" elements in my fantasy, but it just felt unsupported in the narrative. Even a throwaway (which I might very well just have overlooked in my read) that they relied on builder technology for the actual calculations and I'd have swallowed it whole, but I got the picture that they did it all in their head and by hand.

As for the "juvenile" bare-boned plot, how so really? Success in your endavours equals a juvenile plot, or is it the "climb to the top" goal that is juvenile? If those are juvenile I'd say capturing a runaway insect while helping a birdman get his wings back is also juvenile, but I'd never call Mieville that all the same... (yes I'm reaching a bit with that one, but I'm getting at the fact that the bare bones mean nothing, so it's an archetype, it doesnt make it juvenille, the wrapping / style / content is what makes something juvenile or not). Also, juvenile just to me carries a hint of negative association (like childish I suppose), so just calling it "youthful" maybe?

Math was just the tool they used I think, their focus. It did not actually mean anything real I don't think. The magic is in the first number the math in the second as they kept saying. The weakened barriers between thought and reality allowed them to predict the future. The math was just the tool that had been created by a millenia of mathmagicians creating the belief that math can predict the future. No computer could even begin to try let alone a humans math skills. Luntar for example could see the future far clearer than they and he just could!

[Mikkelinski]

True that, I guess I sort of put them separate from the other "sworn" type mages (fire, air, necromancy etc), and for some reason got the idea that they didn't use anything but statistical texts and mathematical teachings leftover by the Builders. Your explanation makes a lot more sense heh.

[Abyss]

Cause, on 10 September 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

Mikkelinski, on 10 September 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

My biggest hangup was the mathmagicians, which were awesome, but just (from my perspective) very unlikely since I never got the idea that they had builder technology to support their calculations (except for the door to their school / tower) and that kind of predictive modeling (is that the right term even I don't know) requires computers. I think it's a bit weird that I'm sometimes jarred by "unrealistic" elements in my fantasy, but it just felt unsupported in the narrative. Even a throwaway (which I might very well just have overlooked in my read) that they relied on builder technology for the actual calculations and I'd have swallowed it whole, but I got the picture that they did it all in their head and by hand.
...

Math was just the tool they used I think, their focus. It did not actually mean anything real I don't think. The magic is in the first number the math in the second as they kept saying. The weakened barriers between thought and reality allowed them to predict the future. The math was just the tool that had been created by a millenia of mathmagicians creating the belief that math can predict the future. No computer could even begin to try let alone a humans math skills. Luntar for example could see the future far clearer than they and he just could!

Mikkelinski, on 10 September 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

True that, I guess I sort of put them separate from the other "sworn" type mages (fire, air, necromancy etc), and for some reason got the idea that they didn't use anything but statistical texts and mathematical teachings leftover by the Builders. Your explanation makes a lot more sense heh.

I could be wrong, but weren't the Mathii thought by Jorg to be the tools of one of the Builder ghost factions ?

[Cause]

Yes unlike most magic users in the settings the math magicians were not out for ultimate power for themselves but wanted to improve the stability of the world. Re-unite the empire and rediscover the lost technology. I believe it is mentioned that their goals and one of the builder factions goals aligned and so they helped each other. Still their ability to predict their future I think was still clearly a result of magic and not builder science. We often see them described as scribbling sums on paper before making their predictions. Qalathi (Sp?) could work out Jorg was Jorg using only his own insight when they first meet.

Fexler was only able to predict Jorgs behavior after scanning and mapping his mind with the control ring.

[Abyss]

Cause, on 11 September 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

Yes unlike most magic users in the settings the math magicians were not out for ultimate power for themselves but wanted to improve the stability of the world. Re-unite the empire and rediscover the lost technology....

Which is funny since they lived under Fayed who wanted to destroy all the Builder tech, but i think the Ghosts were playing a more subtle game with the Mathii.

[Macros]

Just finished emperor.
lived the series, will read this thread properly later, flight time (and oh boy how I love flying!)

[Abyss]

Also just finished EoT.


Will do a complete post later, but fuck me like a chicken pot pie if that wasn't the most enjoyable fantasy lit i've read since TCG.

[Abyss]

So, EMPEROR OF THORNS.... here's what i really enjoyed about it...

SPOILERS

SPOILERS
MASSIVE BIG FUCKING BIG SPOILERS

FOR ALL THREE BOOKS
IN THE THORNS SERIES

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

RIKE IS BATMAN

SPOILERS
OK RIKE ISN'T REALLY BATMAN HE'S BANE SPOILERS

DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING, DID YOU? I WARNED YOU I FUCKING DID
SPOILERS


I really enjoyed how Jorg grew up, but in certain very nasty respects stayed true to himself. On his journey thru the Wasteland he genuinely liked his companions, so much so that he killed one of them just to give her an easier death. That's all kinds of messed up, but perfectly in keeping with the character.

Another example was his way of getting a majority... lock himself in a room and kill a bunch of people who won't vote for him. Then ADMIT he just did that and call a vote. Loved it

The end result, his death in order to save his brother, was also in keeping with the character. He refuses to be refused what he wants.

Chella... i didn't think i would like her pov but it truly grew on me and her last act was very nicely built on everything that had gone before with her.

I had guessed William as the Dead King back in King of Thorns, but i liked how the revelation played out.

Katherine... great character and i enjoyed how despite their relationship over the course of the book, her and Jorg never reconciled. Her flaying one of the Lichkin and Chella's reaction was a great great scene that said a LOT about her.

Miana remained enjoyable, tho she didn't steal scenes quite as much as she did in KING.

Rike... there's something wrong with me because i fucking loved Rike. I could just picture Mark laughing out loud every time he wrote a scene with Rike or even better, Jorg talking about him. The last scene between them was perfect.

I liked how Jorg kept referring to the lessons he learned from the road Brothers, even after most of them were dead.

I loved Gorgoth. Gorgoth is probably the quietest character ever to steal every scene he's in. I loved the way Jorg almost idolized him and wanted his friendship so badly and when he couldn't have it, asked for it for his son. Gorgoth summoning the red trolls was also one of the highlight fist pump moments of the book if not the series.

I really enjoyed Jorg's travels and what it told us about the world.



So overall, i thoroughly enjoyed this series. It wasn't Malazan deep, but it hit surprising depth even so, the action scenes were terrifically written, the characters nicely original and fun to read.


I'm glad i reread PRINCE and then had KING and EMP on hand to read back to back because that likely added nicely to my enjoyment, tho i suspect the books stand nicely on their own as well. It's the most fun fantasy trilo i've read at one go since Weeks' SHADOW series a year or two ago, and i'll look fwd, thinkymeatz and wallet ready, to whatever Mark writes next.

[Abyss]

catching up on some upthread posts i was avoiding while still reading the series...

MASSIVE SPOILERS BELOW

SPOILERS

ALL BOOKS SPOILERS

RIKE BECOMES EMPEROR

I FUCKING WARNED YOU

AGAIN

I DID

SPOILERS

polishgenius, on 29 August 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

...Malazan fans aren't a unified hive-mind entity despite the best efforts of Abyss, ...

I don't know what you're referring to PG.

Btw you'll receive a helmet in the mail shortly. It's harmless. Just put it on.

Pig Iron, on 29 August 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

Just finished Emperor. What a great read. Fantastic characters, and some surprisingly moving scenes. Wonder a little about the ending,

Spoiler

seems Jorg left his newborn and wife at the head of a now unmagical empire where he has just made blood-feuds with about half of the ruling dynasties, with allies besides his grandfather only in the far north and the far south?

Given how Jorg thinks, this was probably in his view the best chances they could get no matter how grim though. Not one to balk at tough choices ...
...

By that point he was pretty firm that he didn't love Miana and he would never be a good father, so given Makin and Gorgoth's comments throughout the book, it made perfect sense for Jorg to find a way out no one thought of AND get what he wanted in the process.

Cause, on 03 September 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

I read three books just so I would get to read the punchline to a joke hundreds of pages in the making in the second last chapter. Had me in stitches

Spoiler

When Death attacks the congression, Jorg delivers a line: 'The guard who had watched over our Congression, a dozen men in total, stood with the Hundred, all save one who’d contrived to break his neck in the confusion and donate his sword to Rike'.

I laughed my ass off at that, among many other Rike moments.

Quote

...the explanation for how magic appears in the world I thought was inspired.

Agreed, as was Jorg's decision to deal with it and remove the puppet-masters like Sageous and others from the game.

Cause, on 11 September 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

...Fexler was only able to predict Jorgs behavior after scanning and mapping his mind with the control ring.

That was a nice touch i thought, and gave a sort of immortality to the character despite how the book ended.

[Hocknose]

Just finished Emperor...absolutely loved every word of this trilogy!!

Mark Lawrence is up there now for me...can't wait for his 'Red Queen's War' series next...

[Mark Lawrence]

Hocknose, on 09 October 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

Just finished Emperor...absolutely loved every word of this trilogy!!

Mark Lawrence is up there now for me...can't wait for his 'Red Queen's War' series next...

Glad you enjoyed it!

The first book of The Red Queen's War trilogy is now listed (on UK Amazon at least) - June 5th they say! No cover art yet :/

http://www.amazon.co...81429910&sr=1-1

This post has been edited by Mark Lawrence: 10 October 2013 - 06:34 PM