[QuickTidal]

Sombra, on 13 May 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

To ask a semi-serious question: is it just my limited experience, or is the whole Brienne thing just the longest cliffhanger EVER??? Are there similar or even bigger cliffhangers with other series that had massive gaps in publishing times?

I mean, there's only so long I can stay here on the edge of my seat ...

Uh...her's is a short cliffhanger...it happened at the end of AFFC...

as opposed to Jon, Dany, Bran and Tyrion who we last saw at the end of ASOS, all with their own sort of cliffhangers.

So I guess I'm saying..how is Brienne's cliffhanger worse than the above ones?

Oh, wait. This is Sombra I am talking to. You want to do dirty things to Brienne of Tarth don'tcha? LOL

[Abyss]

Sombra, on 13 May 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

To ask a semi-serious question: is it just my limited experience, or is the whole Brienne thing just the longest cliffhanger EVER??? Are there similar or even bigger cliffhangers with other series that had massive gaps in publishing times?

I mean, there's only so long I can stay here on the edge of my seat ...

I could be wrong, but i think that over in WoT Mat spent a few years longer under a brick wall.

D, on 13 May 2011 - 09:00 AM, said:

...Given its 1600+ pages, there'll hopefully be space.

Relatedly, i can't be the only one absolutely thrilled about the sheer mass of this thing. Even mediocre GRRM is generally solid, so 1600 pages of goodness is just staggering in its potential awesome.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 13 May 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Relatedly, i can't be the only one absolutely thrilled about the sheer mass of this thing. Even mediocre GRRM is generally solid, so 1600 pages of goodness is just staggering in its potential awesome.

Nope, you are not alone. I love that it's a ridiculous brick of a behemoth too.

[Ceda Cicero]

QuickTidal, on 13 May 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

Abyss, on 13 May 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Relatedly, i can't be the only one absolutely thrilled about the sheer mass of this thing. Even mediocre GRRM is generally solid, so 1600 pages of goodness is just staggering in its potential awesome.

Nope, you are not alone. I love that it's a ridiculous brick of a behemoth too.

Yeah, between the absurd length and what (IMO) is a potentially amazing cast, I'm just absolutely stoked.

[Werthead]

It's 1547 pages. They got it down in the final edit. That's also manuscript pages, not the final count. It's 15 MS pages longer than A STORM OF SWORDS, so it'll be about 930 pages in hardcover, assuming they use the same small print they did for A STORM OF SWORDS. It probably won't feel much longer than an Erikson book, though in terms of word-count it's radically longer (about 50,000 words longer than THE CRIPPLED GOD).

Quote

To ask a semi-serious question: is it just my limited experience, or is the whole Brienne thing just the longest cliffhanger EVER??? Are there similar or even bigger cliffhangers with other series that had massive gaps in publishing times?

Mat was stuck under his wall for 4.5 years (from A CROWN OF SWORDS in 1996 to WINTER'S HEART in 2000), so that's not as long (assuming Brienne's fate is revealed in ADWD; if it's left for TWoW, it should outstrip the Mat cliffhanger by quite a lot). Jack Vance left Cugel marooned on a desolate beach thousands of miles from home for 17 years between THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD in 1966 and CUGEL'S SAGA in 1983.

Frank Herbert left Arrakis destroyed, the Imperium overrun by the Honoured Matres and humanity under threat from an unknown enemy in CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE, published in 1986 shortly before he died. His son and noted talentless hack Kevin J. Anderson supplied a resolution based on Herbert's notes with HUNTERS and SANDWORMS OF DUNE in 2006-07. However, this was later exposed as being total bollocks and they'd just made it up off the top of their heads. So a canon resolution for the cliffhanger will never be released.

This post has been edited by Werthead: 13 May 2011 - 04:03 PM

[acesn8s]

QuickTidal, on 13 May 2011 - 12:30 PM, said:

Sombra, on 13 May 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

To ask a semi-serious question: is it just my limited experience, or is the whole Brienne thing just the longest cliffhanger EVER??? Are there similar or even bigger cliffhangers with other series that had massive gaps in publishing times?

I mean, there's only so long I can stay here on the edge of my seat ...

Oh, wait. This is Sombra I am talking to. You want to do dirty things to Brienne of Tarth don'tcha? LOL

Brienne is a gasper.

[Tsundoku]

QuickTidal, on 13 May 2011 - 12:30 PM, said:

Sombra, on 13 May 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

To ask a semi-serious question: is it just my limited experience, or is the whole Brienne thing just the longest cliffhanger EVER??? Are there similar or even bigger cliffhangers with other series that had massive gaps in publishing times?I mean, there's only so long I can stay here on the edge of my seat ...

Uh...her's is a short cliffhanger...it happened at the end of AFFC...as opposed to Jon, Dany, Bran and Tyrion who we last saw at the end of ASOS, all with their own sort of cliffhangers.

Yes, but it has been so damn long since I read about them I had quite forgotten. Also, hers was simply a REAL abrupt cliffhanger, what with being cut off ... sort of. As opposed to a "normal" cliffhanger where the characters are in peril, but looking for a way out as the ominous Dr Who music signals the end of the episode, she is literally left hanging in the air. We are in that moment between one second and the next.

Quote

So I guess I'm saying..how is Brienne's cliffhanger worse than the above ones?Oh, wait. This is Sombra I am talking to. You want to do dirty things to Brienne of Tarth don'tcha? LOL

Hey, she's quite a nice girl. Even if she does have a rather unfortunate visage, she's trim, toned, strong, skittish and taut as a hunted doe. I'll bet if you touched her just right she'd go off like a frog in a sock.

Now try to sleep with THAT visual.

[Cobbles]

Werthead, on 12 May 2011 - 11:00 PM, said:

Fair enough. It is an extremely confusing situation.

To have another run at it, GRRM started writing 'the ASoIaF book after A STORM OF SWORDS' in 2000 with the intention of it starting 5 years after ASoS. He ran into problems specifically with regards to the Iron Islands (I believe it was to do with after five years the Iron Throne still hadn't smashed the ironborn rebellion), Dorne (he didn't believe that Doran Martell would wait five years before seeking vengeance for Elia and Oberyn's deaths by sending Quentyn to Daenerys) and Brienne (it seemed implausible Brienne could wander Westeros for five years and not find any trace of Arya or Sansa). These were all stories that he felt 'needed to be told'.

So he scrapped the material he had at that time and started over with AFFC from scratch. The stories that 'needed to be told' - Dorne, the Iron Islands and Brienne - were the ones he focused on and completed. Other characters factored into that: Sansa, Cersei, Jaime etc. Other characters - Tyrion, Dany, Davos, Bran, Tyrion etc - didn't because they didn't have 'stories that needed to be told' from the gap period. They were ready to move into the next phase of the series. GRRM didn't write and then burn tons of material for them, he rather didn't write that much 'interim' materal for them in the first place (basically the original version of the 500 MS pages he had left over from AFFC, which is a lot overall but not so much per-character when divided between a dozen POV characters).

To come at it from another, more concise angle, A FEAST FOR CROWS was not split into two books, A FEAST FOR CROWS and A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, containing all the material planned for the pre-split A FEAST FOR CROWS. Instead, the material left-over from A FEAST FOR CROWS has been integrated into the book that was supposed to follow on from the pre-split AFFC anyway. That's why the introduction of AFFC only increased the count to 7 books, not 8. Or for those that say AFFC is 'half a book', ADWD should be 'a book and a half' to make up for it.

Of course, GRRM could have completely ballsed it up (ADWD certainly has the potential to be a horrendous Frankenstein's monster of confused storylines and timelines). This is something we won't know until the thing is out (two months from today).

Thank you for the answers. I appreciate it.

And it could make sense. I'm still not really convinced why the three stories which 'had to be told' couldn't be told in retrospect. Or how telling those stories in this way required the five year gap to vanish. Considering the difficulties this must make for the Stark children stories. But so be it.

I'm leaning toward giving 'Dance' a chance. Mostly because of the HBO series which reminds me about the good stuff. But I'll wait for the reviews. One turnoff would be If it ends in a cliffhanger.

[Tsundoku]

Werthead, on 13 May 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:

It's 1547 pages. They got it down in the final edit. That's also manuscript pages, not the final count. It's 15 MS pages longer than A STORM OF SWORDS, so it'll be about 930 pages in hardcover, assuming they use the same small print they did for A STORM OF SWORDS. It probably won't feel much longer than an Erikson book, though in terms of word-count it's radically longer (about 50,000 words longer than THE CRIPPLED GOD).

Briar King, on 15 May 2011 - 02:07 AM, said:

Fuck me...its going to be a 1600pg hardcover?

See above.

[D'iversify]

Even if it is after all >1000 pp. in hardcover, should still be one to avoid dropping on your toes.

[Werthead]

It will probably be just over 1,000 pages in hardcover with the appendices and maps included. They added 70-odd pages to the ASoS hardcover, likely around the same for ADWD.

[amphibian]

Werthead, on 13 May 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:

Frank Herbert left Arrakis destroyed, the Imperium overrun by the Honoured Matres and humanity under threat from an unknown enemy in CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE, published in 1986 shortly before he died. His son and noted talentless hack Kevin J. Anderson supplied a resolution based on Herbert's notes with HUNTERS and SANDWORMS OF DUNE in 2006-07. However, this was later exposed as being total bollocks and they'd just made it up off the top of their heads. So a canon resolution for the cliffhanger will never be released.

What do you mean by "total bollocks"? I loved the Frank Herbert Dune books and read a couple of his son/Anderson's books and swore off them because I was going to physically hurt the someone who was responsible for those abominations if I kept reading.

Were there no notes? Did they junk the notes? What happened there?

[King Bear]

amphibian, on 18 May 2011 - 02:40 AM, said:

Werthead, on 13 May 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:

Frank Herbert left Arrakis destroyed, the Imperium overrun by the Honoured Matres and humanity under threat from an unknown enemy in CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE, published in 1986 shortly before he died. His son and noted talentless hack Kevin J. Anderson supplied a resolution based on Herbert's notes with HUNTERS and SANDWORMS OF DUNE in 2006-07. However, this was later exposed as being total bollocks and they'd just made it up off the top of their heads. So a canon resolution for the cliffhanger will never be released.

What do you mean by "total bollocks"? I loved the Frank Herbert Dune books and read a couple of his son/Anderson's books and swore off them because I was going to physically hurt the someone who was responsible for those abominations if I kept reading.

Were there no notes? Did they junk the notes? What happened there?

I'd like clarification on that too please. I heard they had notes but often deviated from them, and that one of the reasons for deviation was to link in crap from their prequels. Is this true?

[Use Of Weapons]

Quick Ben, on 18 May 2011 - 05:23 AM, said:

I'd like clarification on that too please. I heard they had notes but often deviated from them, and that one of the reasons for deviation was to link in crap from their prequels. Is this true?

The purported notes were exaggerated in quality and quantity to make the publication of the sequels palatable to the publishers. In reality, what notes there were amounted to a scribbled line basically saying, "Maybe I could go this way?" Herbert, as far as we can now tell, kept the whole thing in his head.

[D'iversify]

Glad i didn't bother with the Dune sequels from the sounds of it. I'll guiltilly admit, however, that I did quite enjoy the Houses Trilogy Prequels, even if they did have fairly one-dimensional characters and take some serious liberties in places - the Ix twins plot line strained credibility even for a science fiction setting.

[Traveller]

Cobbles, on 09 May 2011 - 10:50 PM, said:

As I've said before, I think there are big structural problems with the whole series. First, it still doesn't hang very well together. Dany is very isolated, and even a few characters coming her way isn't enough to tie her story in with the rest. At some point, she will have to cross the sea to Westeros. If it happens in Dance, it will still be very late (a possible season 5 of the series?). If it doesn't happen in Dance, the series might be unsalvageable. Next is the focus of the story. It started out as a story of the Stark children with the iconic chapter of finding the direwolf pups. That focus has shifted so much by AFFC that most of the Stark children almost seem irrelevant, or written into some kind of 'training sequence' situations which should take them considerable time to complete. Viewers might leave the series when their favorite characters disappear or get marginalized. I might think the effect could be amplified when it's children characters. Again, unless those children make a great return to the scene in Dance, I think the series might be unsalvageable.

This is going to be the main problem. Not so much whether GRRM can bring these characters back together for some sort of conclusion, but whether the series will get cancelled due to the loss of viewers when they see the Starks being flung even further afield or killed, Winterfell sacked, and new characters taking the stage. If people perceive this as another long winded series with no possible conclusion or resolution, the ratings will dive and the whole thing will get cancelled in a flash.

[Ceda Cicero]

GRRM updated his blog yesterday with a pretty interesting breakdown of the writing process behind ADwD (and a few interesting pieces of info about the content of the book.) No spoilers, of course, but he does give pretty detailed info about the POVs. Specifically, though there are 16 POVs throughout the book (not counting the prologue and epilogue) Jon, Dany, and Tyrion together make up nearly half the book (though possibly a portion of that could be POV characters that are at their sides.)

[Werthead]

Quick Ben, on 18 May 2011 - 05:23 AM, said:

I'd like clarification on that too please. I heard they had notes but often deviated from them, and that one of the reasons for deviation was to link in crap from their prequels. Is this true?

Yup, as I understand it 'the notes' basically boiled down to Herbert musing on bringing back old characters as gholas to help resolve the situation. Most notably, he did not identify 'the great enemy' the Honoured Matres were fleeing from (and whom show up as two old guys at the end of CHAPTERHOUSE DUNE). Very careful reading of the books suggests a dangerous new strain of Tleilaxu, but there are no signs at all it would be the AIs. Basically Anderson and Herbert Jnr. made up that whole storyline and wrote their shite prequels to set that up completely off their own backs.

Reading their afterword in HOUSE ATREIDES about 'the notes', they seem to indicate they are more like Jordan's notes for THE WHEEL OF TIME, featuring detailed breakdowns and information. Of course, this turned out to be guff. This particularly enraged DUNE fans who hated the new books for being badly-written, but had been picking them up because they thought they'd at least give a canon answer to long-standing questions. Instead they turned out to be glorified fanfiction.

[Steel General]

IIRC he (GRRM) also said that there were 3 or 4 new POVs

[End of Disc One]

I wouldn't mind the number of POVs if I wasn't worried about the possibility of the series not getting finished. The POVs have made it longer.

I'm a big Theon fan but I'm not sure what to make of him having the fourth most chapters. He's not in the best state of course and I'm worried it will make his chapters painful to read.

The only POVs I'm really looking forward to are Jon and Bran. Bran left on an interesting note and Jon seems pretty badass from the preview chapters, and I'm looking forward to him clashing with Stannis.

As much as I love Tyrion, I'm expecting a lot of travel time...I love his political intrigue chapters but I'm not expecting much of that. Never been a Dany fan and I'm expecting a lot of chapters of her ruling Meereen and not getting closer to Westeros.

I don't want to sound like a downer; I'm really looking forward to this book, just not expecting it to be as good as the first three.