[Ceda Cicero]

End of Disc One, on 20 May 2011 - 06:17 PM, said:

I wouldn't mind the number of POVs if I wasn't worried about the possibility of the series not getting finished. The POVs have made it longer.

I'm a big Theon fan but I'm not sure what to make of him having the fourth most chapters. He's not in the best state of course and I'm worried it will make his chapters painful to read.

The only POVs I'm really looking forward to are Jon and Bran. Bran left on an interesting note and Jon seems pretty badass from the preview chapters, and I'm looking forward to him clashing with Stannis.

As much as I love Tyrion, I'm expecting a lot of travel time...I love his political intrigue chapters but I'm not expecting much of that. Never been a Dany fan and I'm expecting a lot of chapters of her ruling Meereen and not getting closer to Westeros.

I don't want to sound like a downer; I'm really looking forward to this book, just not expecting it to be as good as the first three.

I think it's safe to assume that some of those POVs were added for the sake of accelerating and advancing the plot so at to AVOID churning out entire filler novels ala Crossroads of Twilight. If the hints and implications are any indication, Barristan, for example, was introduced as a POV character here to cut through the Meerenese knot, which ostensibly will result in getting Dany out of Slaver's Bay and at least bound for Westeros or thereabouts. Theon I'm iffy on, but since this is the first time since... what, book 2 that the political and social landscape of the North is being revisited (Bran and Jon's storylines are the only ones that've touched on this, and Bran's journey in hiding and Jon's presence on and beyond the Wall doesn't give much insight into what's actually fucking happening in this massive country) so for that reason I'm excited he's getting face time.

The Ironborn POVs I could honestly take or leave, at least as they were presented in FFC. However, now that the whole realpolitik of the Iron Islands arc has mostly been resolved, I'll be more interested to see these characters as, with Victarion at least, his arc is going to be tied to developing some of the more fundamental plots of the whole series (Dany getting to Westeros, dragons n'shit, etc.)

Then there's Melisandre. She as a POV is going to be huge. I don't "like" her and truthfully as a character I don't find her all that compelling, but she obviously possesses a lot of knowledge about some of the lore and magic in the series, particularly the Others. Regardless of how close to the vest Martin holds his cards when he's writing her chapters, we're still likely to get more info on the gods, magic, dragons, and the Others out of her POV chapters in Dance than we've gotten from the other four books combined. Similarly, regardless of how you feel about Barristan as a character, and regardless of how (un)necessary you feel it is to have another set of eyes in Meereen, it's going to be a trip getting inside his head, with all his knowledge of Rhaegar, the Mad King, etc.

I realize this is a pretty damn optimistic view, and that the safer route at this point would be to keep my expectations low. But then again I'm also someone who found virtually every arc/POV/setting visited in FFC (aside from the Dornish) to be the more dull threads in the series (not to say they were downright bad or unenjoyable, just not my preferred cast/settings) and have been waiting for ages to get back to Meereen, the Wall, and the North, so it could just be a matter of preference.

This post has been edited by Ceda Cicero: 20 May 2011 - 07:25 PM

[worry]

I personally loved AFFC and find 16 POVs to be something of a gift. The only bad news I saw in that post was there will not be a Brienne POV in this book...understandable, but I will miss her the most.

[Tyr]

Hoping not to get martyred here, but IMO the series is only salvageable if the ending if great. Not good - great.

Just seems to me as though the whole Wot5K was just alot of filler for these final books, especially considering the shift of importance unto Dany and Jon. Yes, I know that it is important to set out the current situation in Westeros (as pointed out a thousand times on Westeros.org) but if this is how Martin is going to wrap this series up, in a predictable "Tolkienesque" fashion, I cant say I enjoyed the ride.

Maybe its just me and my bias against magic in this series (I am pretty fine with it in other series, but it just ruined it for me in this one) or my sheer hatred of prophecies and the "evil" enemy and all that jazz. The ending has to carry everything past SoS for me.

Edit: Oh yeh, I know there are alot of assumptions here, not having read DwD, but I am just going off of what I believe is being set up for us.

This post has been edited by Tyr: 21 May 2011 - 09:04 AM

[Tapper]

Tyr, on 21 May 2011 - 09:01 AM, said:

Hoping not to get martyred here, but IMO the series is only salvageable if the ending if great. Not good - great.

Just seems to me as though the whole Wot5K was just alot of filler for these final books, especially considering the shift of importance unto Dany and Jon. Yes, I know that it is important to set out the current situation in Westeros (as pointed out a thousand times on Westeros.org) but if this is how Martin is going to wrap this series up, in a predictable "Tolkienesque" fashion, I cant say I enjoyed the ride.

Maybe its just me and my bias against magic in this series (I am pretty fine with it in other series, but it just ruined it for me in this one) or my sheer hatred of prophecies and the "evil" enemy and all that jazz. The ending has to carry everything past SoS for me.

Edit: Oh yeh, I know there are alot of assumptions here, not having read DwD, but I am just going off of what I believe is being set up for us.

Ehm, sorry Tyr - I have no problems with your hatred of some characters (or your objections to people like me who don't mind a Daenerys returns to Westeros set-up) and the way you dislike how the books seemingly course to a 'conservative' ending, but your bias against magic, prophecies and 'evil Others' strikes me as slightly odd.

The name of the series alone, the introduction of dragons and their return (both in book 1), not to mention the prologue in book one (not to mention the gazillion times people ominously intone that 'Winter is indeed coming' alone hinted at a meta-physical conflict that transcends above humanity, no?

Also, quit with the 'martyred' crap.

You may represent a minority view point and I don't mind the fact you're proud of that even if I think your expectations are somewhat unrealistic. This board does not care enough about GRRM and Westeros to become offensive - our passion is the MBotF. In fact, the only person who recently attacked/condemned someone for their views on the series has been you .

This post has been edited by Tapper: 30 May 2011 - 10:08 AM

[blackzoid]

Have to say that I am getting worried about the possible predictability of the end storyline. I loved the war of the five kings because it was unpredictable.
If Dany rids in to save the day with her dragons then thats a pretty straightforward ending. I think its necessary for the Others to kill the dragons or have the dragons reduced to just 1 (not the black, He has to die!) for the story to remain as great as it has been.

[Tapper]

blackzoid, on 30 May 2011 - 11:31 AM, said:

Have to say that I am getting worried about the possible predictability of the end storyline. I loved the war of the five kings because it was unpredictable.
If Dany rids in to save the day with her dragons then thats a pretty straightforward ending. I think its necessary for the Others to kill the dragons or have the dragons reduced to just 1 (not the black, He has to die!) for the story to remain as great as it has been.

Why do the blacks always have to suffer?








Anyway, unless Dany does arrive in Westeros before the end of ADwD, I doubt there will be anything like time for a war with the Others without it all feeling incredibly rushed even if the final two books are also 1600 page manuscripts. There is still a war in the North, there is no clear ruler with Cersei imprisoned and Margaery married to Tommen but Maecella or what's her name in the hands of the Dornish, and the continued presence of the Queen of Thorns, Littlefinger and the Martell lord (who has dealt with his cousins and daughter dearest) makes me feel there will be plenty of scheming, maneuvering and warring to be done for the foreseeable future.

Besides, the Others have hardly made their presence felt so far south of the wall. If anything, I can see the books end with the struggle in Westeros over who rules the land and the announcement that this ruler + the leader of the Black Watch will fight the uncoming unslaught from up north, rather than actually depicting that war.

[blackzoid]

The black dragon is the biggest. Hence it would be cliche like for him to survive and the others to die. Id rather he die anti-climatically and the others save the day. If indeed the dragons do save the day, I'd rather they didn't and that perhaps Bran be the one to do it.

The books ending with the war against the Others about to begin? An interesting ending. Might work, a lot of people would be pissed off though. I would not be against it 100% but I believe that some of the battles against the Others would need to be shown, if not the whole war. Certainly the Others overrunning the wall would be a fantastic scene.

[Abyss]

I seriously doubt we're leading to a simple 'Others invade, Dany rides in and saves the day and there is much rejoicing'.

I suspect it's much more likely that once the various suitors and advisors en route to Dany as of the end of FEAST all settle down, she's going to invade like the fucking wrath of a thousand dead Targaryens, force the various Kingdoms factions to either join her or unite against her, likely while the religious fanatics try to seize power from Kings Landing post end of FEAST takeover, and THEN, while everything is well and truly fucked enough to make the W5K look like a minor border dispute from the Belgariad, the Others will grab the Horn that Mance was carrying around back in STORM, shatter the Wall and invade with a great big tide of frosty zombies, we're talking Winter Is Coming And It's Pissed As Fuck... and THEN, after the Others have advanced ways south and beaten the crap out of pretty much everyone, there wil be an unsteady alliance and counterattack by the Kingdoms and Dany's forces, likely with a healthy portion of betrayal and some incest just for good measure.

And THEN there will be much rejoicing.
Also, incest.

[acesn8s]

We still have the whole Azor Ahai conflict, which I don't think Dany qualifies for. So I don't see her being the magic bullet to the Other's issue. On a side note, I find it interesting that the Priestess of R'hllor comes from Asshai-by-the-Shadow. Something is rotten in the Kingdom Westeros.

As for a Dany invasion, if she doesn't get her act together, she's going to make a landing in late fall or early Winter. Not the best time for a foreign army to try and scavenge supplies.

Anyone have any guesses on how long Fall will last before the hinted at long winter? 3 years, 5 years, etc? then we're looking at a foreshadowed 10+ year winter.

[Abyss]

acesn8s, on 31 May 2011 - 01:17 PM, said:

We still have the whole Azor Ahai conflict, which I don't think Dany qualifies for. ...

On the contrary, the link between the Targaryens and 'fire' makes her relevance to a conflict with 'Ice' fairly significant. Plus, y'know, fire-breathing dragons.

Quote

Anyone have any guesses on how long Fall will last before the hinted at long winter? 3 years, 5 years, etc? then we're looking at a foreshadowed 10+ year winter.

Good question and i'm hoping GRRM gets into that because the logistics of a population that's primarily farming based surviving ten years without any growing season is a curious challenge. Massive exodus of refugees to Dorne and so on, no doubt, but i can't see the nobility vacating, which means they aren't likey to just let the commoners run for warmer climes either.

[McLovin]

Abyss, on 31 May 2011 - 02:01 PM, said:

Good question and i'm hoping GRRM gets into that because the logistics of a population that's primarily farming based surviving ten years without any growing season is a curious challenge. Massive exodus of refugees to Dorne and so on, no doubt, but i can't see the nobility vacating, which means they aren't likey to just let the commoners run for warmer climes either.

Some thoughts

• There's a reason why the south of Westeros is more populated than the north.
  
• Certain crops can survive in quite cold weather - peas, broccoli, some types of greens.
  
• Winterfell has a glasshouse in which less hardy crops can be grown year round. No doubt all castles in Westeros have one.
  
• Hunt wild game for meat, though you would need to be careful not to overhunt. Also, this only gets you so far, since game will start dying off en masse as winter drags on.
  
• For additional animal protein/fat, consume more dairy. Milk, butter, cheese. Again though, cattle will start dying off too as winter drags on.
  
• Presumably, as autumn kicks in, smallfolk know to start hoarding grains and dried beans and switch to a winter mentality.
  
• Cannibalism. Yeah, GRRM is just fncked up enough to go there. And its not so farfetched - read about the aftermath of the battle of Stalingrad sometime.

So there are things that can be done, though it will be a very harsh existence and many smallfolk will die.

Also there is incest to keep everyone warm.

[Werthead]

The 'average' winter in Westeros is 3 or less years long and mostly affects the North and the more mountainous and elevated regions of the Vale, the Riverlands, and the Westerlands. It almost never snows as far south as King's Landing and never in Dorne, Oldtown and most of the Reach (the breadbasket of the Seven Kingdoms). As far as we know, there hasn't been a winter longer than 3 years since the Long Night and the first invasion of the Others eight millennia ago, and most people consider that to be just a story.

As GRRM has said, the solutions are fairly simple. Castles in the North are mostly built near heat-producing natural elements, like Winterfell's hot springs and the Dreadfort's volcanic vents. This allows them to have glasshouses in which they can grow crops. There's also ice-fishing along the coast and on the major rivers. Actual medieval curing, salting and storage techniques could keep some food fresh for as long as two or three years, and we can give Westeros some leeway in that some foodstuffs (particularly fruits and vegetables) may have adapted to the crazy seasons and last a lot longer.

But generally, winter in the North is hell. People starve, farms are frosted over and destroyed, and in the long run there is famine and death. That's why the North is almost as big as the rest of the Seven Kingdoms put together but only has a population comparable to say the Westerlands by itself, and not a lot more.

[Abyss]

This is also why Winterfell's hockey team kicks butt.


That aside, excellent Wertpoints, but do we actually know that Winter doesn't get to King's Landing? Dorne sure, because it's desert at least in part, but i was under the perhaps wrong impression that winter threatened further south and that the 'pre-Winter' that
happens during the W5K affects pretty much everyone from King's landing on up.

And of course an evil magic Other-powered Winter can cheerfully ignore geography and just freeze everyone's ass off.

[D'iversify]

McLovin, on 01 June 2011 - 01:15 PM, said:

Hunt wild game for meat, though you would need to be careful not to overhunt. Also, this only gets you so far, since game will start dying off en masse as winter drags on.
For additional animal protein/fat, consume more dairy. Milk, butter, cheese. Again though, cattle will start dying off too as winter drags on.

Reindeer are a potential substitute for both of these, I think, as they can survive harsh Lapland winters with relative comfort since they mainly feed on mosses that survive the winter underneath the snow.

[acesn8s]

In A Clash of Kings, the Maesters in the North are suggesting that everyone put aside 1/5 to 1/4 of their supplied for the upcoming winter. I guess the Northerners eat a lot of crutons and pretzels.

[Abyss]

acesn8s, on 02 June 2011 - 12:33 PM, said:

In A Clash of Kings, the Maesters in the North are suggesting that everyone put aside 1/5 to 1/4 of their supplied for the upcoming winter. I guess the Northerners eat a lot of crutons and pretzels.

One uptick of winter... refrigeration isn't a problem.

[acesn8s]

Unfortunately you'll have to make it through a few years of Fall first. I guess that means lots of pumkin pie?

[blackzoid]

Didn't winter officially start at the end of a Feast of Crows? Didn't Jaime see snow falling at the end of the book? And I think he was somewhere near Tully lands.
And he thought that there was no time to get the last harvest in. Or am I misremembering?

[Ceda Cicero]

blackzoid, on 03 June 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:

Didn't winter officially start at the end of a Feast of Crows? Didn't Jaime see snow falling at the end of the book? And I think he was somewhere near Tully lands.
And he thought that there was no time to get the last harvest in. Or am I misremembering?

You aren't misremembering it, that's exactly how it happened. "Half our granaries are empty, and winter is marching south" was the exact phrasing.

[Tapper]

but how much does a Lannister know about farming?