[Grimjust Bearegular]

I think I must have missed it somehow. But when did the Crippled God suddenly become the good guy? I've seen him as the "enemy" from the very start, right up unitl this last book, which made me think I must have missed something vital when reading the previous books...am I the only one?


When did it all take a 180, and why?

[Aptorian]

It was begun around BH. The crippled god communicates with somebody and mentions that he does not want to put suffering on to his worshippers, but it is all that he has and they are begging him for it. They are in fact molding him into a god of corruption and pain and degredation. Also, being chained for a hundred thousand years sort of gives him a giant pity card that you can work with.

Also when in RG Erikson suddenly dismantled everything the CG had been building up to in 5-7 books it became sort of obvious that the Crippled God was not going to be the big bad. For that he was not getting the right build up.

Still I agree, it was a bit contrived for the CG to just suddenly become all nice and confused and humble and all that shit.

It really is a contrast to the asshole we met in MOI and MT

[Gatekeeper]

SE pretty much answers this in tCG when the actual CG is talking to himself. He says things like "I never lied, changed, it was all the way YOU were looking at it" or something similar.

[worry]

The answer is: gradually.

[Aptorian]

 worrywort, on 18 April 2011 - 07:44 PM, said:

The answer is: gradually.

Another answer could be the tables were never set.

It seems to me that MoI set up the Crippled God as the bad guy of the series. Erikson never bothered/wanted to dissuade us of the truth of this and put in another focus for the series.

Personally it is the thing that annoys me the most about the series. There is no real red thread that ties the first books together with the last one. Rather the thread changed color - half a dozen times - and then the book ended by revealing that it was never a thread at all but instead it was really a string.

[worry]

On the contrary, the thread that evil deeds breed monsters is there from the very beginning, as is the thread that unchecked power breeds corruption. Hairlock and Sorry. The D'ivers and Soletaken on the Path of Hands, Whirwind Goddess, Mallick, Pannion, all down the line. We also know that resistance is possible (WJ, Rake), and redemption as well (Sorry again, Pannion again, Lostara).

The Crippled God IS a baddie when we start to get to know him. And is pretty awful a large portion of the way there. He's also tortured, he's also manipulated, and he's also driven insane. And he comes back to himself slowly through the efforts and sacrifices of a lot of individuals. But not only that. I wouldn't be surprised if with every arrival of Jade Giants he regained some of his senses...and that in itself would be heartrendingly painful for him, and contribute to his descent. The final convergence just happened to bring the largest mass of his worshipers, and had the most powerful effect on his consciousness (and conscience). He was, both at his best and at his worst, preparing for the moment when his worshipers would arrive, because they are those to whom he is dedicated.

[Ceda Cicero]

 worrywort, on 18 April 2011 - 08:55 PM, said:

On the contrary, the thread that evil deeds breed monsters is there from the very beginning, as is the thread that unchecked power breeds corruption. Hairlock and Sorry. The D'ivers and Soletaken on the Path of Hands, Whirwind Goddess, Mallick, Pannion, all down the line. We also know that resistance is possible (WJ, Rake), and redemption as well (Sorry again, Pannion again, Lostara).

The Crippled God IS a baddie when we start to get to know him. And is pretty awful a large portion of the way there. He's also tortured, he's also manipulated, and he's also driven insane. And he comes back to himself slowly through the efforts and sacrifices of a lot of individuals. But not only that. I wouldn't be surprised if with every arrival of Jade Giants he regained some of his senses...and that in itself would be heartrendingly painful for him, and contribute to his descent. The final convergence just happened to bring the largest mass of his worshipers, and had the most powerful effect on his consciousness (and conscience). He was, both at his best and at his worst, preparing for the moment when his worshipers would arrive, because they are those to whom he is dedicated.

This, plus the fact that looking at the Crippled God as strictly "good" or "bad" is not only pretty restrictive and narrow, it's something that SE has written on the wall from the very beginning of the series in big bold letters: DON'T DO THIS. "You're not supposed to know who you're supposed to be rooting for. You're not supposed to know who the bad guys are, who the good guys are, even when evidence piles up that points to one or the other, it could all change at the drop of a hat."

There's also the idea that Tavore and everyone else who was on board with releasing the Crippled God were in no way invested in him personally. Sure, the Bonehunters in particular shared in his aspect by the end of the tale (cast out from their homeland, pulled into a conflict that was not their own and made to suffer enormously at every turn) and sure as a result they ended up getting some sweet seats in the House of Chains. But it's not as though any of them (with the arguable exception of Koryk at the last) ever explicitly worshiped him or even thought very fondly of him.

I guess the basic thrust of what I'm saying is - the tables never really turned and the Crippled God never had some dramatic character retcon/facelift. The fact that there were scores of folks (from Tavore to Hood, K'rul to Quick Ben) working for the cause of freeing him and sending him home at the end doesn't necessarily mean that those folks were fans of his, or what he had done. He wasn't released because he stopped being an asshole, he was released in spite of the fact that he had been an asshole. This is more a testament to the Bonehunters, to Tavore, to Shadowthrone/Cots and the others involved in the master plan than it is to some drastic shift in Kaminsod's alignment, and that's what the story is all about - those people, not Kaminsod. This is reflected nicely in his very own POVs on the Barrow when he resolves to tell their story himself - he recognizes that it's all about them, their will, their choice to do what ultimately amounts to (as cliche as it sounds) the right thing, and not really about him at all, even though he's the hinge upon which it all swings.

The fact that we see a softer side of him for those few brief moments on the barrow before he's unchained and sent home is almost incidental, I would argue. Again, it's not an about-face in his character development. I'd even be willing to wager that he's still probably pretty demented at that point and will probably need to look up the number of a good therapist the second he gets his ass into one of those Jade Giants. But in those moments, he's humbled.

So what we're left with at the end of the day is this: Kaminsod thrusts himself into the equation with the House of Chains in MoI. His whole MO is to simply set himself up as a mirror or an amplifier for what he thinks of as the most fundamental and overriding aspects of humanity: suffering, pain, insanity, bondage, etc. And who can blame him - these are the things he knows, thanks to the actions of the gods worshipped by mortals. This is largely what he does throughout the series, he takes the suffering of others (Rhulad, Karsa, Bidithal, Pannion) and he both reflects and amplifies it. Except that after RG, those pieces have been removed from his board, and suddenly it's Tavore and the Bonehunters looking in the mirror. And rather than reflect and amplify their suffering, pain, sense of bondage, etc, he's humbled by the qualities they possess that transcend these things and in the final estimation, he comes to realize that these are not, in fact, the most fundamental and overriding aspects of humanity/the human experience.

This post has been edited by Neocount Cicero: 18 April 2011 - 09:25 PM

[King Lear]

I think I noticed it on one of my rereads before I read TCG. The redemption (I don't think that's right, but I can't think of a better word) of the Pannion Seer is what sort of made me click to they way in which the the Crippled God would be treated by the final book.

[Ilona]

I think... there's also the way worshipers affect their gods in the Malazan universe. We see it earlier on occasion, one that comes to mind is Mael, can't remember in which book but anyway, fighting against the nature that his worshipers have imposed on him.

And there's a line somewhere, again can't remember in which book but think it was quite early on, saying something like "without his worshipers, the Crippled God would have healed long ago". (Or did I dream that one? Suddenly unsure...)

Throughout the series, almost everyone we see paying the poor god any attention at all are those fuckers who worship suffering or whatever, and the rest who just generally see him as the big baddy. And now suddenly Tavore etc approach him with quite different intentions. I'd imagine it would also affect him in some way... Wouldn't it?

[Faeriecween]

 worrywort, on 18 April 2011 - 08:55 PM, said:

On the contrary, the thread that evil deeds breed monsters is there from the very beginning, as is the thread that unchecked power breeds corruption. Hairlock and Sorry. The D'ivers and Soletaken on the Path of Hands, Whirwind Goddess, Mallick, Pannion, all down the line. We also know that resistance is possible (WJ, Rake), and redemption as well (Sorry again, Pannion again, Lostara).

The Crippled God IS a baddie when we start to get to know him. And is pretty awful a large portion of the way there. He's also tortured, he's also manipulated, and he's also driven insane. And he comes back to himself slowly through the efforts and sacrifices of a lot of individuals. But not only that. I wouldn't be surprised if with every arrival of Jade Giants he regained some of his senses...and that in itself would be heartrendingly painful for him, and contribute to his descent. The final convergence just happened to bring the largest mass of his worshipers, and had the most powerful effect on his consciousness (and conscience). He was, both at his best and at his worst, preparing for the moment when his worshipers would arrive, because they are those to whom he is dedicated.

This is more or less how I saw it.
It is, I think, exactly what Hedge is expressing to Fiddler once Kaminsod is physically resurrected on the knoll, albeit coming from a moment of disillusionment about Shadowthrone and Cotillion:

Quote

Fiddler "... They used all of us, Hedge"

Hedge "That's what gods do, aye. So you don't like it? Fine, but listen to me. Sometimes, what they want - what they need us to do - sometimes it's all right. I mean, it's the right thing to do. Sometimes it makes us better people,"

Fiddler "You reallt believe that?"

Hedge "And when we're better people, we make better gods,"

The Crippled God was only capable of feeling what his followers put on him. Once he had people whose lives weren't as filled with pain as his own he was able to grow and come to feel some of the more positive things in life. In as much as you can have a life as a dismembered, chained, alien god.

 King Lear, on 19 April 2011 - 12:46 AM, said:

I think I noticed it on one of my rereads before I read TCG. The redemption (I don't think that's right, but I can't think of a better word) of the Pannion Seer is what sort of made me click to they way in which the the Crippled God would be treated by the final book.

Yes. We were given a taster of justice tempered with mercy.

Also:

Quote

He wasn't released because he stopped being an asshole, he was released in spite of the fact that he had been an asshole.

It actually doesn't much matter that he's been genuinely evil at times, what was being perpetrated against him - the chaining when he was, if anything, the victim rather than the perpetrator - was injust and needed to be rectified. His realisation that there were beings in this world that would do that for him REGARDLESS helped in his change of heart.

[Ceda Cicero]

 Faeriecween, on 19 April 2011 - 09:36 PM, said:

Also:

Quote

He wasn't released because he stopped being an asshole, he was released in spite of the fact that he had been an asshole.

It actually doesn't much matter that he's been genuinely evil at times, what was being perpetrated against him - the chaining when he was, if anything, the victim rather than the perpetrator - was injust and needed to be rectified. His realisation that there were beings in this world that would do that for him REGARDLESS helped in his change of heart.

I touched on that more or less in my enormously longwinded post, so I agree wholeheartedly.

Also, ah, speaking of the longwinded post, I was rather drunk when I wrote it. I stand by what I said but if anyone's wondering why it was so damn long, you have your answer.

[Tatterdemalion]

I appreciate the filling in of some of these details, having finished last night.

I also found this sentiment hit me a little heavy, mostly because SE doesn't let on directly in the final 4 books (er, 6-9) Tavore's intentions - till book 9 at least - and then, even MORE SO, the intentions of these other quasi-ascendant characters aligning with it. I think it all does follow - certainly the reflection thing. The whole book is a big argument for GOODNESS FOR GOODNESS' SAKE sort of thing. Helping people REGARDLESS of their deeds, trying to help them overcome their pain - instead of punishing them for being unhealthy. My fiance is a social worker. I totally think this big message is the sort of thing her office stands by in trying to help destitute people regain their dignity instead of judging them - though some are leeches (crippled god followers) and others will make good if given a chance (Seerdomin, Korabas, CG, etc.) I LIKE this as a big final overarcing message. It's a healthy end to tomes about war.

This said - and it's all great - I still find the change in tone a little too quick for my liking. Karsa, for instance, bitchslaps tCG at the end of book 7, a brooding creature trying to forge a powerfully demented Knight in Chains. In TtH I don't know if Karsa has an epiphany about tCG being a good guy, but by book 10 his conversation with Picker and subsequent killing of the last bit of Fener (this part confused me a bit, yo) makes it seem like he's on Tavore's side and wants to SPARE the Crippled God, when his whole character was built around saying 'fuck you' to anyone who put chains on anyone for any reason regardless of their state of mind.

Remember that moment someone talks about the importance of one word (while in the middle of the shard desert?)? That word is compassion at it is the point around which the whole Crippled God conclusion revolves.

[Ceda Cicero]

 Tatterdemalion, on 19 April 2011 - 10:28 PM, said:

I appreciate the filling in of some of these details, having finished last night.

I also found this sentiment hit me a little heavy, mostly because SE doesn't let on directly in the final 4 books (er, 6-9) Tavore's intentions - till book 9 at least - and then, even MORE SO, the intentions of these other quasi-ascendant characters aligning with it. I think it all does follow - certainly the reflection thing. The whole book is a big argument for GOODNESS FOR GOODNESS' SAKE sort of thing. Helping people REGARDLESS of their deeds, trying to help them overcome their pain - instead of punishing them for being unhealthy. My fiance is a social worker. I totally think this big message is the sort of thing her office stands by in trying to help destitute people regain their dignity instead of judging them - though some are leeches (crippled god followers) and others will make good if given a chance (Seerdomin, Korabas, CG, etc.) I LIKE this as a big final overarcing message. It's a healthy end to tomes about war.

This said - and it's all great - I still find the change in tone a little too quick for my liking. Karsa, for instance, bitchslaps tCG at the end of book 7, a brooding creature trying to forge a powerfully demented Knight in Chains. In TtH I don't know if Karsa has an epiphany about tCG being a good guy, but by book 10 his conversation with Picker and subsequent killing of the last bit of Fener (this part confused me a bit, yo) makes it seem like he's on Tavore's side and wants to SPARE the Crippled God, when his whole character was built around saying 'fuck you' to anyone who put chains on anyone for any reason regardless of their state of mind.

Remember that moment someone talks about the importance of one word (while in the middle of the shard desert?)? That word is compassion at it is the point around which the whole Crippled God conclusion revolves.

Well, it is and it isn't. That may well be Tavore's motive (that was the topic under discussion when the compassion element was first introduced - I believe it was Krughava speaking with Abastral and Spax.) But there are scores of others involved in the plan who - though perhaps motivated in part by compassion - are not wholly motivated by compassion. Quick Ben, for example. In his scene on the barrow, he thinks to himself that he succeeded in saving Burn, as he vowed to do in MoI. I think that was the primary driving factor for Quick Ben. I might say the same for K'rul and Mael (despite their relatively kind respective demeanors with Kaminsod.)

When you really look at it, nothing all that surprising happened. Initially I was shocked to realize that everyone was converging on Kolanse to free the Crippled God rather than destroy him and exact vengeance for what he'd done. But on reflection, it seemed to fit. Why? Because the Crippled God has needed to go since book 3. Since then we've all just been naturally and legitimately assuming that he'd go through an act of vengeance, retribution, and (dare I say it?) justice. But as per usual, SE turned our expectations on their head by introducing the compassion element while still having his characters accomplish what - on a basic level - they needed to: getting rid of the Crippled God.

[worry]

Freeing the CG from his chains -- and being asked to do so rather than compelled to do so -- is completely within Karsa's character. I don't think he was left floating in the ether between TTH and TCG either. He knew the score.

[Tatterdemalion]

 worrywort, on 19 April 2011 - 11:41 PM, said:

Freeing the CG from his chains -- and being asked to do so rather than compelled to do so -- is completely within Karsa's character. I don't think he was left floating in the ether between TTH and TCG either. He knew the score.

Good point, WW. Karsa understands that even the CG should not be chained, despite his chaining ways. Bang. Thanks!

Karsa may not have floated between TtH and CG, but there is a definite switch between RG and TtH (he ends RG by bitchslapping tCG, after all). I guess this is where he got onside? A reread of TtH would prove whether Erikson wrote this into the tale of the text or if it is just a realization Karsa makes 'at some point.' Also, in the end, he could easily have helped tCG by coincidence and there would be no hole in his character or story.

RE: Neocount - your point is aided by Shadowthrone and Cotillion, whose motives were to assure their place in the pantheon to a further degree (I...think?) So yes, more than just compassion. But I still think compassion is the main point (if one can be claimed) behind the story, as the Bonehunters, in the end, are the mainest of characters.

[Grimjust Bearegular]

Lots of good points being made here, and the decision to free him does seem to make a lot more sense now, and does seem a long time coming, instead of something that just happened in book ten.

I kinda like that in an epic series such as this, filled with so much atrocities and acts of human (yes human. We're the worst of the bunch, it seems) cruelty, there is still room for hope, faith that people will do something simply because it is the right thing to do, and compassion.

It feels good to have some of my faith in humanity restored.

[blackzoid]

I believe that the one point which has not been addressed is the creation of the House of Chains itself.
The CG created this as a weapon, but I think it actually was used to mold him into a more redeemable character. Remember MoI and MT were mostly set before the sanctioning of this house.
So after that point in time, his conversion began. Slowly.

Also, remember his conversation with Shadowthrone. He believes that he is the only god to have a proper 2 way conversation with his worshippers.
Probably because he was chained and was unable to escape their prayers. So they may have changed him. Or at least convinced him that things need to be different.

I'm glad it was done anyway, having a big bad like Enemy is way too predictable. If Draconous could change, why not the Crippled God?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 20 April 2011 - 01:50 PM

[worry]

Good point there too. Ultimately, it was lots of different factors over both his entire time on the planet as well as more immediate things after his final chaining...I believe it's mentioned several times that this would be his final gambit for freedom (I'm not just imagining that, am I?)...that led to his change. And let us not forget, it wasn't simply a departure from his personality, it was a return to his personality. How we knew him up to this point was the departure from his true nature.

[Tatterdemalion]

That can make sense logically based on book-evidence, WW, but when all we knew was what we got... I could see how it could rub some people the wrong way. Seems too easy.

I, however, like it.

[King Lear]

I'm really looking forward to doing a series reread with the final book in mind to see what I can spot in regards to the change in the Crippled God