[King Bear]

Tatterdemalion, on 20 April 2011 - 12:51 AM, said:

worrywort, on 19 April 2011 - 11:41 PM, said:

Freeing the CG from his chains -- and being asked to do so rather than compelled to do so -- is completely within Karsa's character. I don't think he was left floating in the ether between TTH and TCG either. He knew the score.

RE: Neocount - your point is aided by Shadowthrone and Cotillion, whose motives were to assure their place in the pantheon to a further degree (I...think?) So yes, more than just compassion.

I wonder if Cotillion did it more out of compassion than for himself and ST?? He seems to be the most humane of the gods, so it would fit.

I enjoyed the irony that an assassination was a compassionate act. Well, at least I THINK it was done to free CG, rather than simply murder him.

BTW, don't you just love that when you write 'assassinate', you get to write 'ass' twice consecutively?

[Midnight]

I agree that the personality change did seem quite sudden, even though it had been building.

One other possible explanation is that by the beginning of TCG the situation had changed dramatically for Kaminsod. All of his plans, the Pannion Domin, the Edur empire and the King in Chains have all failed and he's about to be sacrificed by the FA. So he knows the end is coming and is probably feeling completely hopeless. At the same time, as a counterpoint to his despair, he sees a number of people converging on Kolanse to free him which hasn't happened before - for example his conversations with ST seem to be the first he's had.

It's possible that these two factors result in us seeing a different side of him than before.

As to the issues of him being evil and also the theme of compassion in the books I like the fact that it's compassion without permitting unethical acts. Tavore is the perfect example of this as she not only frees the Crippled God but, before hand, also destroys the Edur empire to prevent him from causing any more damage.

[King-of-Chains]

Sudden? Hardly. The thing with Erikson is he left it up to you. He gave you the picture bit by bit and you had to decide who The Crippled God was.

I found it easy to believe this "change". Because really he didn't change, he just showed a side that had been hidden. He still committed those crimes, he still maniplated and maimed for the sake of his own personal goals. He even contemplates leaving the world to destruction because he knows he would be safe from Korbrabas. He contemplated calling down the Jade Strangers, his followers. But he doesn't because he saw the value of the Malazan sacrifice. Their fight for him. The Crippled God never compromised, never acted as anything else other than who he truly was. How you see him is up to you. Personally he is both victim and villian.

[Silk]

Personallyh i never felt that he was the big bad he was portrayed tp be... as in one of the books it mentions that his original nature is opposite to what is shown. secondly I think that the newer gods (so to speak) were seemingly against the chaining and use of his power by the older and elder gods (as was mentioned when Hoods Knight spoke against it) which led to him seeing the value of some of the mortals of this world (i.e the malazans) who ultimately ended up being his saviours.

*Silk has had way to much of teh african sun of late and his mind might have melted*

[Ceda Cicero]

King-of-Chains, on 25 April 2011 - 02:47 AM, said:

The Crippled God never compromised, never acted as anything else other than who he truly was. How you see him is up to you. Personally he is both victim and villian.

Agreed. What's important there is to recognize that the two (victim/villain) are not mutually exclusive. It's possible to view him as victim and thus be supportive/empathetic of Tavore and company's efforts without completely disregarding or otherwise excusing all the horrible shit he did. Is it a lot to ask of us to try and hold these two points of view in tension with one another without discarding one or the other? Hell yes. But certainly everyone can agree that asking a lot of the reader is something SE has always done.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Posted my thoughts on Kaminsod in another thread, I'll leave them here.

From the earliest stages of our introduction to the nature of the Crippled God and his chainings, I really felt like something was up. Having been introduced to the power games of the various Ascendants in great detail, I could only suspect that to chain, contain and hold this massive, alien source of power might have been done with less altruistic motives than the reader might be expected to assume. He certainly seemed like a dick in MoI through to RG, but frankly, I can't blame him; he's been dragged into what is (let's face it) a bit of a shithole of a world, chained and crippled and forced to suffer for the sake of being a glorified power source. I think this was a very interesting insight into something fantasy authors gloss over a lot, and that's an attempt at understanding how gods might think; Erikson himself is guilty of not really addressing this often, with characters who've lived for hundreds of thousands of years like Rake and Kallor being, in many ways, identifiably human. We don't really get to see the extent of Kaminsod's unchained power, but the implication as I read it was that he outmatches just about anything on Wu, and was the head of his pantheon (assuming it wasn't monotheistic) back home.

Looked at from that perspective, the games of the Pannion Domin and Edur Empire don't seem entirely at odds with how he's portrayed in TCG. Basically, we're fucking nothing to something of that power level. We're ants. Even if he were compassionate, kind and just - which he wasn't exactly in the mood for after being dragged to Wu - the lives and existences of individual armies and empires? They're just hills of ants, and if I have to burn down an anthill to prevent them mobilising in an A Bug's Life manner and murdering me, you can bet I'll do it. If I can muster a bunch of other ants to follow my cause and smash themselves against it... sure, I'll feel pretty bad, but I'll go for it. To Kaminsod, these ants forcibly dragged him out of his house and they now have him tied up in the garden and are leeching his precious bodily fluids. I didn't see the change of perspective on him coming and being so extreme, but looking back on it, I did feel like it fit in perfectly with what we've been given. Compassion has been a theme throughout the series from the start - from Rake's struggle to remain in touch with the people "down below" to Lorn's attempts to reign in her humanity in service to the Empress - and, to me at least, Erikson forcing us to come out and show compassion for a pretty damn reprehensible being brings that full circle.


Erikson tells us a lot to beware those who are too certain about anything, and we see the consequences of that time and time again in the books. It's fitting that the so-called big bad guy is one of the few to truly admit that he might have been wrong, and that in the end, that was what saved both him and everyone.

This post has been edited by POOPOO MCBUMFACE: 27 April 2011 - 11:14 AM

[Grimjust Bearegular]

I guess my inability too see any good in the guy until the very end says more about me as a person, than it does about SE's writing...although that writing is clever, very clever indeed.

My view of TCG reflects my view of bad guys in general. If you hurt me or my loved ones or anyone I know, I'll have no sympathy for you, no matter your situation and your past. I just don't give a fuck. And TCG did indeed hurt some of my "loved ones"

[Asharak]

To me it seamed he was originally good, but through a 100 thousand years of terrible pain he had become a monster. Kaminsod himself said he had wanted to hurt/destroy everyone he could until that point, but once the enourmous amount of pain was taken away (at the barrow) he became himself again.
To me it seamed pretty clear in the text that thats how it was, but i guess its up for interpretation.

IMHO the point of the Bonehunters mission was:

1) That no creature deserved to suffer for all eternity, no matter what. I doubt any of them liked TCG, not even Tavore. But that dident matter, the horror had to stop.

2) Stop the Forkrull Assail from using TCGs power to slaugther every human in the world(and any other races probably).

This post has been edited by Asharak: 29 September 2011 - 10:53 PM

[IgnatiusKruppe]

On the re-read I was amazed at how many times they mentioned the CG in a sympathetic light..but knowing more about the nature of the character,
it made a lot more sense.

The Crippled God would have been long healed if it wasn't for the chainings.

Sure, they saved the Crippled God because of the power of compassion or whatever, but it also conveniently saved the world and sorcery and killed or neutralized
a bunch of old hoary entities and powers that could have caused trouble in the future.

For all the talk about compassion being "enough" - the entire situation undoubtedly created a better world for humanity from that point forward.

When it comes down to it, freeing and killing the Crippled God end up creating the same situation for the future: There is no longer a powerful alien being used
as a wellspring of power while harming the flesh of the world. In a way, I feel like we're lead to overestimate the altruism of the endeavor.

[I. aye]

IMHO wo know fairly little about the Chaining and other events concerning the Crippled god. Despite POVs through K'rul etc., we cannot be sure wether the Chaining was a necessity or just a grab for power; we do not know wether the POVs of the god himself were genuine pain or general self pity, one could even say that the CG being saved was just the result of him manipulating certain mortals. For me this just adds to the joy of reading Steven Erikson.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

IgnatiusKruppe, on 28 October 2011 - 08:19 PM, said:

On the re-read I was amazed at how many times they mentioned the CG in a sympathetic light..but knowing more about the nature of the character,
it made a lot more sense.

The Crippled God would have been long healed if it wasn't for the chainings.

Sure, they saved the Crippled God because of the power of compassion or whatever, but it also conveniently saved the world and sorcery and killed or neutralized
a bunch of old hoary entities and powers that could have caused trouble in the future.

For all the talk about compassion being "enough" - the entire situation undoubtedly created a better world for humanity from that point forward.

When it comes down to it, freeing and killing the Crippled God end up creating the same situation for the future: There is no longer a powerful alien being used
as a wellspring of power while harming the flesh of the world. In a way, I feel like we're lead to overestimate the altruism of the endeavor.

While Tavore and the Bonehunters may have been in on this because it was the "right" thing to do, (and also because it stopped the FA from wreaking havoc on the entire world) the 2 guys that started it weren't doing it for altruism, and they were clear about that. Shadowthrone and Cotillion talk about it in the book, this whole venture of theirs started because they realized that their new place in the pantheon was in danger. The fact that everyone's place in the pantheon was in danger wasn't their concern. Everything they did was to secure themselves...the fact that it helped out a lot of other people/gods? That was essentially collateral damage, er, collateral preservation?

[HoosierDaddy]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 29 October 2011 - 07:19 AM, said:

IgnatiusKruppe, on 28 October 2011 - 08:19 PM, said:

On the re-read I was amazed at how many times they mentioned the CG in a sympathetic light..but knowing more about the nature of the character,
it made a lot more sense.

The Crippled God would have been long healed if it wasn't for the chainings.

Sure, they saved the Crippled God because of the power of compassion or whatever, but it also conveniently saved the world and sorcery and killed or neutralized
a bunch of old hoary entities and powers that could have caused trouble in the future.

For all the talk about compassion being "enough" - the entire situation undoubtedly created a better world for humanity from that point forward.

When it comes down to it, freeing and killing the Crippled God end up creating the same situation for the future: There is no longer a powerful alien being used
as a wellspring of power while harming the flesh of the world. In a way, I feel like we're lead to overestimate the altruism of the endeavor.

While Tavore and the Bonehunters may have been in on this because it was the "right" thing to do, (and also because it stopped the FA from wreaking havoc on the entire world) the 2 guys that started it weren't doing it for altruism, and they were clear about that. Shadowthrone and Cotillion talk about it in the book, this whole venture of theirs started because they realized that their new place in the pantheon was in danger. The fact that everyone's place in the pantheon was in danger wasn't their concern. Everything they did was to secure themselves...the fact that it helped out a lot of other people/gods? That was essentially collateral damage, er, collateral preservation?

Benevolent greed.

And, I think it started as so, and mutated somewhat by the end, at least for SE, I mean, Cotillion.

[tiam]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 29 October 2011 - 07:19 AM, said:

IgnatiusKruppe, on 28 October 2011 - 08:19 PM, said:

On the re-read I was amazed at how many times they mentioned the CG in a sympathetic light..but knowing more about the nature of the character,
it made a lot more sense.

The Crippled God would have been long healed if it wasn't for the chainings.

Sure, they saved the Crippled God because of the power of compassion or whatever, but it also conveniently saved the world and sorcery and killed or neutralized
a bunch of old hoary entities and powers that could have caused trouble in the future.

For all the talk about compassion being "enough" - the entire situation undoubtedly created a better world for humanity from that point forward.

When it comes down to it, freeing and killing the Crippled God end up creating the same situation for the future: There is no longer a powerful alien being used
as a wellspring of power while harming the flesh of the world. In a way, I feel like we're lead to overestimate the altruism of the endeavor.

While Tavore and the Bonehunters may have been in on this because it was the "right" thing to do, (and also because it stopped the FA from wreaking havoc on the entire world) the 2 guys that started it weren't doing it for altruism, and they were clear about that. Shadowthrone and Cotillion talk about it in the book, this whole venture of theirs started because they realized that their new place in the pantheon was in danger. The fact that everyone's place in the pantheon was in danger wasn't their concern. Everything they did was to secure themselves...the fact that it helped out a lot of other people/gods? That was essentially collateral damage, er, collateral preservation?

I have to agree with Ignatius Kruppe in that I thought everyone involved took the moral highground. Im sure WJD is right though. Ill know more on a reread.

Just to throw in a point that I come across during a reread. Ive just finished RG and remember an interesting point about how the turn around seemed sudden. RG MMPB p.100-101 Silchas claims a few things
'A god in pain is not the same as a god obsessed with evil. Your Warlock kings obsessions are his own'
'perhaps without his malformed worshippers he would have healed long ago'

Possibly the most interesting one from the POV of the Krisnan

'Silchas Ruin knows moe of the Crippled god than anyone barring perhaps Rhulad. But he does not hate.No, he feels pity'

Even as early as 100 pages into RG theres a level of suspicion introduced suggesting TCG isnt the black and white villain, twirling his moustache and tying women to train tracks.

[Praetorion]

The way I see it all people are prone to being both good & evil. In life no person is entirely good nor are they evil . I think this is what SE brings to the table as a writer and the reason I stayed w/ the series. So if people have a shitty day can't gods have one ? Or a few 1.000 years . Just sayin'

[robertk4]

So I don't post a whole lot but I read this forum avidly. I can tell you on this topic that there is an amazing quote by Paran in MOI about sympathy or empathy or something like that being "the key" to this whole Crippled God mess. If someone could quote fu it it would be awesome. To me if there is one passage that is the crux of this series its those thoughts of Paran. I'll try and look it up sometime tomorrow.

[worry]

I'm actually entirely good, but your point still stands, Praetorion.

[Ceda Cicero]

robertk4, on 29 October 2011 - 08:59 PM, said:

So I don't post a whole lot but I read this forum avidly. I can tell you on this topic that there is an amazing quote by Paran in MOI about sympathy or empathy or something like that being "the key" to this whole Crippled God mess. If someone could quote fu it it would be awesome. To me if there is one passage that is the crux of this series its those thoughts of Paran. I'll try and look it up sometime tomorrow.

I vaguely remember that, now that you mention it. Someone with better quote fu than me (summon D'rek) will need to find the exact passage, BUT, I think it may be in the same conversation where Rake tells Paran about the Chainings and talks about the downfall of Fener.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

robertk4, on 29 October 2011 - 08:59 PM, said:

So I don't post a whole lot but I read this forum avidly. I can tell you on this topic that there is an amazing quote by Paran in MOI about sympathy or empathy or something like that being "the key" to this whole Crippled God mess. If someone could quote fu it it would be awesome. To me if there is one passage that is the crux of this series its those thoughts of Paran. I'll try and look it up sometime tomorrow.

Snagged from the "foreshadowing" thread on this board:

Quote

Twist shrugged again. 'We did not slay the Tiste Edur. In Barghast eyes, that is our greatest crime. I wonder, however, if the Elder Spirits -now gods - see it in similar light.'
'They've had a long time to think,' Paran murmured. 'Sometimes, that's all that's needed. The heart of wisdom is tolerance. I think.'
'If so, Captain, then you must be proud.'
'Proud?'
The achievant slowly turned away as soft calls announced the troop was ready. 'I now return to Dujek Onearm.' He paused, then added, 'The Malazan Empire is a wise empire. I think that rare, and precious. And so I wish it - and you - well.'
Paran watched Twist stride away.
It was time to go.
Tolerant. Maybe. Keep that word in mind, Ganoes - there's a whisper that it will prove the fulcrum in what's to come...

I picked up on a couple of others in the same thread. Midnight Tides, Bantam p464:

Quote

'The god is fallen. He crouches now, seeding devastation. Rise and fall, rise and fall, and with each renewal the guiding spirit is less, weaker, more tightly chained to a vision bereft of hope.'
'Why does this god do this to us?'
'Because he knows naught but pain, and yearns only to share it, to visit it upon all that lives, all that exists.'
'Why have you shown me this?'
'I make you witness, Brys Beddict, to the symbol of your demise.'
'Why?'
The figure was silent for a moment, then said, 'I advised you not to look for hope from your leaders, for they shall feed you naught but lies. Yet hope exists. Seek for it, Brys Beddict, in the one who stands at your side, from the stranger upon the other side of the street. Be brave enough to endeavour to cross that street. Look neither skyward nor upon the ground. Hope persists, and its voice is compassion, and honest doubt."

[sting01]

I just started TcG , so I do not know how CG will be representd in that final book.

But I never ever felt he/it was the arch vilain of the story; I pictured him more as a Schindler (Schindler' List0; mean someone having powers over "untermenschen" (to be taken litteraly in the case of our beloved books), while being on the same time tormented by way more evil beings.

As in the movie, CG simply wait the right call, the right question, the show of true humanity at least by one (followers , Gods, or even lay people) to be able to take the right way. Both Schindler and CG have both already choosen ages ago to take the right way, but they not only lack the initial push (how many of us are simply cowards or little chickens, so why not a God?) to take that way , they do also lack the energy that only freedom can provide (or the momentum would be lost).

From Deadhouse Gate onward, I always felt description of Kellanved/Shadowthrone were wrong. To manage to create such an empire, and to use such strong willed and powerfull individuals as Kellanded did; then manage to become God, while releasing mortal power (Would you imagine the Errant release everything? Anything?) while we were here and there tiped that SD/Cotillon had even a bigger goal that to only attain Godhood would make imagine the true vilain in the story is the mortal gread and thirst for power; said greed being carried out when some reach Godhood (imagine Kallor becomnig a God??????????????) while even Draconus or Oserc do not appear as evil, greedy or power hungry (indifferent to the suffering of the little individuals yes, but how would it be another way?).

[Kanubis]

Something else I've pondered is whether the 'Old Sick Guy in Tent' avatar is any more the whole sum and representation of Kaminsod than 'Dickhead scheming with the other dickhead Gods' Dessembrae is to Traveller. That is, the inner being of TCG is better represented by his monologues in TCG, but the power of worship and faith manifested the twat in the tent.

The events in Stonewielder lend some weight to this, in my opinion.