[Ceda Cicero]

Tapper, on 02 May 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

Jaime was a bit too one-dimensional to my liking, a bit too selfish and a bit too intent on a turf war,=

Idunno, Tapper, I have to beg to differ. I actually thought that with this episode, the series did a better job at pulling on some of the more sympathetic strands of Jaime's character earlier on than the books. We are really only introduced to the idea that Jaime killed Aerys Tararyen for anything resembling a good reason in ASoS, and it doesn't come to fruition until FFC when we learn that he did it (among other reasons) chiefly to stop him from burning everyone in King's Landing to a crisp with wildfire. And yet they alluded to that here in episode three of the first season.

I agree that there are times when he comes off as selfish, brutish and trigger happy in the show, but that's, to my mind, pretty faithful to what we see of him in the books pre-ASoS when he gets a POV. I tend to think they're doing a much better job of hinting at some of his more humane qualities here than Martin managed to do before he introduced him as a POV. To the fact that he still mostly comes off as a cock, well, Jaime is kind of a cock until being defeated by Robb, losing his hand to the Mummers, running with Brienne, and falling out with Cersei and Tywin.

[Abyss]

Tapper, on 02 May 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

...I'm not going to mention Tyrion stealing the show again. I loved how they made him piss down the wall, the jerks afterwards were exaggerated (unless he is a tripod and is actually dickslapping the wall) ...

I believe that happened in the book.
The Walll cracked a bit.

[Rhand]

I was rather dissapointed with the start of the episode, but as it progressed it got better (luckily). I really didn't like the council, it was off compared to how I always had it in mind. But then again, I could have expected that. I also always pictured the castle a tad darker and colder.

Tyrion delivered, as usual. The whole North feels much more interesting actually than the South, while in the books it was the other way around.

This post has been edited by Rhand: 02 May 2011 - 07:21 PM

[Tapper]

Neocount Cicero, on 02 May 2011 - 07:00 PM, said:

Tapper, on 02 May 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

Jaime was a bit too one-dimensional to my liking, a bit too selfish and a bit too intent on a turf war,=

Idunno, Tapper, I have to beg to differ. I actually thought that with this episode, the series did a better job at pulling on some of the more sympathetic strands of Jaime's character earlier on than the books. We are really only introduced to the idea that Jaime killed Aerys Tararyen for anything resembling a good reason in ASoS, and it doesn't come to fruition until FFC when we learn that he did it (among other reasons) chiefly to stop him from burning everyone in King's Landing to a crisp with wildfire. And yet they alluded to that here in episode three of the first season.

I agree that there are times when he comes off as selfish, brutish and trigger happy in the show, but that's, to my mind, pretty faithful to what we see of him in the books pre-ASoS when he gets a POV. I tend to think they're doing a much better job of hinting at some of his more humane qualities here than Martin managed to do before he introduced him as a POV. To the fact that he still mostly comes off as a cock, well, Jaime is kind of a cock until being defeated by Robb, losing his hand to the Mummers, running with Brienne, and falling out with Cersei and Tywin.

Maybe - I know they do the same with Cersei. My point is, with her, it works marvellously for me - not in the least thanks to the actor, she adds depth to a character I detested. Wih Jaime, not so much - but that might be because I generally tend to like arrogant, cocky devils who believe in the prowess of their own right hand and little else - Sergio Leone style I mean, the guy shags his own twin sister, wouldn't that weigh on your mind? It doesnt on the early book Jaime Lannister. My point is more that this Jaime is not posturing, lacks 50% of the arrogance he had in the books, and yet tries to bring his lines across in a Bond-esque fashion, and somehow that doesn't mesh entirely. Tyrion has the venom and arrogance I expected of Jaime.

The Throne room scene between Ned and Jaime was good, but the flavor of it was disdainful aristocrat meets reserved farmer, instead of cocky traitor who lived by his sword, name and reputation since he became Kingslayer meets seasoned warrior, warden of the North, friend of the king, who stood against fucking Arthur Dayne Ned. The history between them, a history which weaves through the entire first book, was not at all apparent in what made it such a great confrontation - and I can only congratulate the actors on still making it look great, but the lines and lack of reflection by the script writers gave them less than 100% sound material. I'd much rather have given up a bit of Jon time to see that scene perfected.

And yes, to those of us who know about the fire, this was a new line that revealed things. To new people, it was an illustration of Aerys' madness, in a bit of a parallel to Denethor's demise in Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, but not the planning of an atrocity.

EDIT: I might seem to contradict myself. The Jaime I like in the books is an arrogant cock but he has earned it and he revels in his reputation. The Jaime of the series is coasting and seems more snobbish, looking down his nose and wondering what all the little mouth breathers are doing there, than confident. There is as of yet no sense of Jaime being one of the martial prodigies of the realm, which he is. Instead, he seems more of a fad, a courtier.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 02 May 2011 - 07:30 PM

[Ceda Cicero]

Tapper, on 02 May 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

Neocount Cicero, on 02 May 2011 - 07:00 PM, said:

Tapper, on 02 May 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

Jaime was a bit too one-dimensional to my liking, a bit too selfish and a bit too intent on a turf war,=

Idunno, Tapper, I have to beg to differ. I actually thought that with this episode, the series did a better job at pulling on some of the more sympathetic strands of Jaime's character earlier on than the books. We are really only introduced to the idea that Jaime killed Aerys Tararyen for anything resembling a good reason in ASoS, and it doesn't come to fruition until FFC when we learn that he did it (among other reasons) chiefly to stop him from burning everyone in King's Landing to a crisp with wildfire. And yet they alluded to that here in episode three of the first season.

I agree that there are times when he comes off as selfish, brutish and trigger happy in the show, but that's, to my mind, pretty faithful to what we see of him in the books pre-ASoS when he gets a POV. I tend to think they're doing a much better job of hinting at some of his more humane qualities here than Martin managed to do before he introduced him as a POV. To the fact that he still mostly comes off as a cock, well, Jaime is kind of a cock until being defeated by Robb, losing his hand to the Mummers, running with Brienne, and falling out with Cersei and Tywin.

Maybe - I know they do the same with Cersei. My point is, with her, it works marvellously for me - not in the least thanks to the actor, she adds depth to a character I detested. Wih Jaime, not so much - but that might be because I generally tend to like arrogant, cocky devils who believe in the prowess of their own right hand and little else - Sergio Leone style I mean, the guy shags his own twin sister, wouldn't that weigh on your mind? It doesnt on the early book Jaime Lannister. My point is more that this Jaime is not posturing, lacks 50% of the arrogance he had in the books, and yet tries to bring his lines across in a Bond-esque fashion, and somehow that doesn't mesh entirely. Tyrion has the venom and arrogance I expected of Jaime.

The Throne room scene between Ned and Jaime was good, but the flavor of it was disdainful aristocrat meets reserved farmer, instead of cocky traitor who lived by his sword, name and reputation since he became Kingslayer meets seasoned warrior, warden of the North, friend of the king, who stood against fucking Arthur Dayne Ned. The history between them, a history which weaves through the entire first book, was not at all apparent in what made it such a great confrontation - and I can only congratulate the actors on still making it look great, but the lines and lack of reflection by the script writers gave them less than 100% sound material. I'd much rather have given up a bit of Jon time to see that scene perfected.

And yes, to those of us who know about the fire, this was a new line that revealed things. To new people, it was an illustration of Aerys' madness, in a bit of a parallel to Denethor's demise in Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, but not the planning of an atrocity.

Blast! Even though I just tried to sort-of-disagree with you after everything you just said I actually find myself completely agreeing with you.

[End of Disc One]

One little thing I loved about Jaime that I haven't seen anyone else mention, was how he lit up when Barristan mentioned one of his kills and complimented Barristan on it. Jaime is such a fanboy to those knights who have more accomplishments than he does (Arthur Dayne as well). These are the only people in the world he respects and it shows his great passion for swordfighting, and how it's the only thing he cares about besides being with his sister.

[QuickTidal]

Rhand, on 02 May 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:

Tyrion delivered, as usual. The whole North feels much more interesting actually than the South, while in the books it was the other way around.

Weird, me and the people I got into the book series are all bigger fans of the North than the South. Strange how subjective a world such as this can be.

[Abyss]

Tapper, on 02 May 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

... The Jaime I like in the books is an arrogant cock but he has earned it and he revels in his reputation. The Jaime of the series is coasting and seems more snobbish, looking down his nose and wondering what all the little mouth breathers are doing there, than confident. There is as of yet no sense of Jaime being one of the martial prodigies of the realm, which he is. Instead, he seems more of a fad, a courtier.

There have been comments from any number of folks (including Selmy, Littlefinger that i can think of offhand) that Jaime is badass.


Which sort of brings us back to my running point that there's been a distinct lack of the stabby so far, but that's more or less how the books were too.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 02 May 2011 - 08:07 PM, said:

Tapper, on 02 May 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

... The Jaime I like in the books is an arrogant cock but he has earned it and he revels in his reputation. The Jaime of the series is coasting and seems more snobbish, looking down his nose and wondering what all the little mouth breathers are doing there, than confident. There is as of yet no sense of Jaime being one of the martial prodigies of the realm, which he is. Instead, he seems more of a fad, a courtier.

There have been comments from any number of folks (including Selmy, Littlefinger that i can think of offhand) that Jaime is badass.

Indeed.

Tapper. Is your opinion based on having only read the first 3 books? Cause as of AFFC the man is much more likable, and changes your perception of him by giving him his own POV.

[Garak]

Pretty sure we'll get some stabby soon. What I really want to see is how HBO will handle the battle toward the end of the book.

[Ceda Cicero]

Garak, on 02 May 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:

Pretty sure we'll get some stabby soon. What I really want to see is how HBO will handle the battle toward the end of the book.

You referring to the battle where Tyrion shows up with Bronn and Tywin gives him a flank to command or something? If so, I agree, if only because that battle felt like an afterthought, "blink and you miss it" kind of scene to me in the book (I just reread GoT this past fall and even now I'm having a hard time remembering much about it.)

[Tapper]

QuickTidal, on 02 May 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:

Abyss, on 02 May 2011 - 08:07 PM, said:

Tapper, on 02 May 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

... The Jaime I like in the books is an arrogant cock but he has earned it and he revels in his reputation. The Jaime of the series is coasting and seems more snobbish, looking down his nose and wondering what all the little mouth breathers are doing there, than confident. There is as of yet no sense of Jaime being one of the martial prodigies of the realm, which he is. Instead, he seems more of a fad, a courtier.

There have been comments from any number of folks (including Selmy, Littlefinger that i can think of offhand) that Jaime is badass.

Indeed.

Tapper. Is your opinion based on having only read the first 3 books? Cause as of AFFC the man is much more likable, and changes your perception of him by giving him his own POV.

I have read AFFC (once, when it was just released, and by that time I was slightly vexed by the lack of progress of the Starks and Roose Bolton taking the north. Many of the SoS introducees/ characters aren't dear to me at all - I'm not a true fan of the books and mostly read them because I love the political scheming). I liked the deepening out of Jaime.
I disagree however with you that it changes your perception of him as he was before. I think he was nearly exactly who we have seen him as before - maybe with a few dark caverns in the back of his mind where doubts gnaw like rats, but he keeps a lock on those.

Rather, the PoV comes as Jaime changes on account of seeing his life's ensurance and his pride cut off in the form of his right hand by his father's own (former) mercenaries. Maybe that change was already underway when he and Brienne charged off and before he lost his hand, but the Jaime of book 1 is not the Jaime of AFFC, I'm rather convinced of that - and I also think that Jaime changes as Cersei changes. It is also no real surprise he starts looking at his past in a different light after losing his hand.

I like the AFFC play-it-smart-bluff,-train-left-handed-and-get-my-ass-kicked-by-Illyn-Payne-but-persevere Jaime.
I also think a sympethatic King's Landing character was required to off-balance Cersei, who by that time was a total loon in the books.

That does not stand in the way of me also liking the earlier Jaime with all his bad habits, who epitomized everything a Lannister of before-middle-age should be: handsome, cocky, capable, daring, and knowing his is the greatest House in Westeros, and feeling uncomfortable with having done what he did and how people see it, but usurping that and flaunting it instead. Not to mention hiding the fact he is banging his sister and sees no real wrong in it. The Jaime of the tv-series imho lacks that depth/air the book-Jaime has.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 02 May 2011 - 08:54 PM

[End of Disc One]

I think Jaime first changed in our perception, and then later changed as a character. We got to see his point of view of the kingslaying, and it's a very different one from Ned's flashback in AGoT. We also learn that he's not evil--he just doesn't give a shit about anything except his sister and swordfighting. His sort of an empty person like Dexter Morgan.

[Ceda Cicero]

End of Disc One, on 02 May 2011 - 09:08 PM, said:

I think Jaime first changed in our perception, and then later changed as a character. We got to see his point of view of the kingslaying, and it's a very different one from Ned's flashback in AGoT. We also learn that he's not evil--he just doesn't give a shit about anything except his sister and swordfighting. His sort of an empty person like Dexter Morgan.

Agree with most all of that, but would echo a post I made earlier in the thread - I think Jaime gives very much a shit about a few things besides his sister and swordfighting, I just think he manages to bottle it all up prior to losing his swordhand. From what we see in FFC, a hugely formative part of his character at a young age was his esteem for knights like Barristan, Arthur Dayne, etc - not just because of their prowess with the sword, but because of the honor and esteem they garnered.

Sisterfucking and daddy issues aside, as he himself has said, "It always comes back to Aerys." He was presented with (as we find out in FFC) an impossible choice - protect his king and allow a huge chunk of the population of KL to die, or break his oath and save them. He makes what he thinks is the most honorable of the two choices at the time (admittedly probably bolstered by the fact that it's the best political choice he has by that point) and a recurring pattern with his character is then that he can't get anyone - but especially men that he still begrudgingly admires on some level, like Barristan and Ned and the Blackfish - to cut him a little slack for it.

[amphibian]

Neocount Cicero, on 02 May 2011 - 10:16 PM, said:

Agree with most all of that, but would echo a post I made earlier in the thread - I think Jaime gives very much a shit about a few things besides his sister and swordfighting, I just think he manages to bottle it all up prior to losing his swordhand. From what we see in FFC, a hugely formative part of his character at a young age was his esteem for knights like Barristan, Arthur Dayne, etc - not just because of their prowess with the sword, but because of the honor and esteem they garnered.

Sisterfucking and daddy issues aside, as he himself has said, "It always comes back to Aerys." He was presented with (as we find out in FFC) an impossible choice - protect his king and allow a huge chunk of the population of KL to die, or break his oath and save them. He makes what he thinks is the most honorable of the two choices at the time (admittedly probably bolstered by the fact that it's the best political choice he has by that point) and a recurring pattern with his character is then that he can't get anyone - but especially men that he still begrudgingly admires on some level, like Barristan and Ned and the Blackfish - to cut him a little slack for it.

Have not seen the show yet, but the above is perfectly in line with what I've seen Jaime as during my readings.

What's so odd about things for him is that he knows he really can't ever be a knight that would be admired in the way he wants, but that doesn't stop him from wanting it anyways.

[Ulrik]

Well, quality of series is proven by fact, that my wife didnt read books and enjoys show even after Ep3, which was mostly "compressed" (or it looks to me like this, becaus, Im in reread at tourney, so small council etc is fresh in my memory). Screenwriters did good job. Readers know what was scene(s) substituting, non-readers are not confused. Only one thing, did Ep2 mentioned that Catelyn went south? I was confused to see her already at the gates:)
Jaime is perfect, I was a little bit disappointed by scene with Cersei "I will kill them all", where it looks like he is the "worse" from twins, but after "Burn them all" it was forgiven.
Tyrion...is top. He is stealing show for himself as did in books (for me).
Syrio was great and Arya too (jesus, I know that playing cheerful stubborn child is easy for children, but she is really good). I do not fear for Sansa, she suits me well into role...and she is really cute, so I can understand some boy and man motives... Just I cant see similarity with Catelyn Littlefinger points to at tournament. Maybe he wont.
Catelyn. Its propably great peace of casting, because my wife asked - se should be so unsympathetic? Oh yeaaaah...
Ned - I really like Sean Bean and I really dislike that only role where he survives is Sharp... But he is great Ned.
Whole Night Watch boys and brothers are older than books, but its pretty OK.

But Im looking forward to Tournament. Hounds speech to Sansa. Mountain killing the young knight. Roberty insisting on participation in melee. And especially - Clegane vs Clegane and "Leave him be!". And Bronn...I guess we will see him at Ep5, but Ep3 was speeded, so maybe he makes debut in Ep4.

[Aristai]

Just about everyone is older right across the show. Fine by me. And yeah Catelyn going south was dealt with in episode 2, though I don't recall it ever being mentioned she was taking ship and hence speeding down there.

[FastBen]

Neocount Cicero, on 02 May 2011 - 03:47 PM, said:

I had really, really high expectations for Littlefinger, and agree that while he looks the part 100%, I was disappointed by his delivery in places. This could be, again, because I had really high expectations. I too love what that actor did as Carcetti in the Wire, though, so I'm still optimistic that he'll come into his own.

Really? I thought that Aidan Gillen as Littlefinger was one of the highlights of the series so far. He speaks all his lines in a suspiciously understated way - and appears stiff at times as if he's holding something back with a smug grin on his face - I had this chalked up to great acting rather than poor acting ....

[QuickTidal]

FastBen, on 03 May 2011 - 06:25 AM, said:

Neocount Cicero, on 02 May 2011 - 03:47 PM, said:

I had really, really high expectations for Littlefinger, and agree that while he looks the part 100%, I was disappointed by his delivery in places. This could be, again, because I had really high expectations. I too love what that actor did as Carcetti in the Wire, though, so I'm still optimistic that he'll come into his own.

Really? I thought that Aidan Gillen as Littlefinger was one of the highlights of the series so far. He speaks all his lines in a suspiciously understated way - and appears stiff at times as if he's holding something back with a smug grin on his face - I had this chalked up to great acting rather than poor acting ....

Except I don't like how he pronounces Catelyn.

[QuickTidal]

Neocount Cicero, on 02 May 2011 - 10:16 PM, said:

Sisterfucking and daddy issues aside, as he himself has said, "It always comes back to Aerys." He was presented with (as we find out in FFC) an impossible choice - protect his king and allow a huge chunk of the population of KL to die, or break his oath and save them. He makes what he thinks is the most honorable of the two choices at the time (admittedly probably bolstered by the fact that it's the best political choice he has by that point) and a recurring pattern with his character is then that he can't get anyone - but especially men that he still begrudgingly admires on some level, like Barristan and Ned and the Blackfish - to cut him a little slack for it.

Very well put indeed. In fact reiterated from his line in the last episode about Aerys "Burn them all". Jaime is such a well built character in the books, because if you take away his sisterfucking, Bran tossing, and daddy issues as NC said above...and remove the Ned Stark Altruistic goggles...he's really much more likable and much more honorable...or at least that's what he attempts and if you look at his accomplishments prior to AGOT it shows that.