[Tyr]

^ You are Queensguard, it is expected. I do not argue with Queensguard. They are as deluded as the whore Queen of dragons.

Neocount Cicero, on 27 April 2011 - 02:00 AM, said:

I can get behind a lot of your points, and honestly everything you said has made me consider some things with Dany (in particular, how I feel about her as a character) that I never have before.

What I will say, and where I think we may end up agreeing to disagree, is that I really have no particular need for Martin to subvert tropes in order to deliver a satisfying conclusion. I leave that particular business to the likes of SE, Abercrombie, and Bakker and - if the conclusion is written with any semblance of the quality of books 1-3 - I'm honestly not overly bothered if it's a predictable conclusion (Dany saves the day, Jon is Rhaegar's son, etc). In some ways the writing has been on the wall since book one that GRRM is that kind of author, and I think - as much as I can in a tongue-in-cheek way laugh about how I wish the Others would wind up being the protagonists or some other kinda subversion - I would ultimately be disappointed if he went out of character and started doing all kinds of crazy retconning just for the sake of fucking with people who have been calling things for so long.

Fair enough. It just seems that alot of people are completely against subverting tropes for the sake of it - but to what end? The only alternative is following a trope. For example, Jon gets pneumonia and dies before he does anything else of significance - whilst extremely realistic, it would probably cause a riot amongst fans. The biggest problem is that GRRM had no qualms killing Ned Stark, and perhaps that gives reason for various peoples to believe that he is willing to kill other "main characters", although he probably is not going to. Whilst this is a major disappointment for me within a minority, it will be joyful for others who want to see Jon and Dany get married with Bran as the Hand, Tyrion rules Casterly Rock and Jaime and his wife Brienne run away together.

When GRRM says bittersweet, there are no 2 ways about it - I think LotR, the goodies win, baddies lose, world is not such a good place. I would absolutely LOVE to see the Others destroy Westeros (and I feel that everything happening has been building up to it, the wars, the decentralization of the north, etc), but I really doubt its going to happen.

Seems like I went off on a rant, so long story short; I am not here to make you hate or even question Dany, I just have strong negative opinions about her and it gets my panties in a bunch when she is such a central focus. I too would love to see GRRM move away from cliches, but its very hard to do so. And some other stuff. Maybe its time to sleep.

This post has been edited by Tyr: 27 April 2011 - 02:28 PM

[Ceda Cicero]

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2011 - 03:32 AM, said:

Neocount Cicero, on 27 April 2011 - 02:00 AM, said:

I would ultimately be disappointed if he went out of character and starteddoing all kinds of crazy retconning just for the sake of fucking with peoplewho have been calling things for so long.

I don't think you can call it retconning when he hasn't given his answers tothese various questions...say whatever arguments you will about variousmysteries in the series....but we are all speculating on what we THINK we know.If after he gives those answers and then down the road writes more (beyond theinitial series) that would contradict those answers...then that would be, bydefinition, retconning. I don't think you can call his original work (all theway to the last book) retconned at all. He can basically write what he wants towrite and we all have to drink it in as his original word of law workregardless of what we think he SHOULD have done.

His story, his rules.

If he chooses that L + R does NOT equal Jon Snow you can't call that aretcon...it simply means you were taken in by a red herrings that lead manyfolk to that conclusion... and the answer is in fact much simpler.

My two cents.

Okay, L+R=J was a poor example, and not quite what I meant. I also probably shouldn't have used the term retcon. The point I was trying (and I think largely failed) to make was that I for one would have no issue with some of the more predictable/obvious/archetypal resolutions that GRRM seems to have been working towards since day one playing out exactly as they are. A good portion of Tyr's point (in his previous post and in a lot of other posts from him I've seen' round these parts) seemed to be that these things happening (namely, Dany arriving in Westeros as more or less the protagonist and chief line of defense against the Others) would, to his mind, constitute a stale ending, a conclusion that seemed too cliche. He's said in other places that he wishes GRRM had the balls to let the Others win, wishes Dany would wind up being the antagonist, wishes Abercrombie was writing the series, wishes it would end with Bronn making a last stand and dying on the Iron Throne, etc, etc. And in his last post he indicated that if these sorts of things don't happen, he won't be recommending the series past book 3.

My point was, GRRM is not that type of author. Yes, SIF is anti-trope in a lot of ways (or at least, was much more so when GoT was first published and the anti-trope thing became super trendy and more in-demand) but not nearly so much as, say, Bakker or Abercrombie or SE. Further, I don't really need him to be that kind of author in order to feels atisfied by the conclusion of the series.

So to clarify my original point, I'm not saying it isn't his story or we aren't playing by his rules. I misspoke when I said that I would be disappointed and immediately call retcon if L+R did not equal Jon. I would be fine with that, and am open to the possibility. What would disappoint me was if, say, L+R didn't equal Jon and I came away from it less with the feeling that this was a turn of events that, despite being unforeseen, has some basis in the text/story and more with the feeling that it's a trick GRRM pulled just for the sake of pulling it, fucking with our heads , subverting tropes just for the sake of it, etc. I expect that kind of shit from, say, SE. It's part of the reason I read SE. I love when SE does shit like that, and don't begrudge him that 40% of the time it causes timeline problems or continuity issues or just flat-out doesn't make a lot of sense, because I know what SE is trying to do and have been on board with it since book one. But Martin is not SE, I've been on board since book one, but it's a completely different sort of ship headed in a complete different sort of direction. He can't do that kind of shit at this point in his story because it would undermine the integrity of the entire structure/framework he's built for 4 books.


Nor do I really think he's going to so really, typing all that crap was a waste of my time.

Jesus, Scott, you bring out the worst in me.

This post has been edited by Neocount Cicero: 27 April 2011 - 02:50 PM

[End of Disc One]

R+L=J is not obvious. Most people only known about it because of the internet. GRRM is old and had this story in his mind long before it was first published. He didn't plan on the influence of the internet.

[Ceda Cicero]

End of Disc One, on 27 April 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

R+L=J is not obvious. Most people only known about it because of the internet. GRRM is old and had this story in his mind long before it was first published. He didn't plan on the influence of the internet.

Oh my fucking shit, forget I mentioned R+L=J.

[Abyss]

Neocount Cicero, on 26 April 2011 - 07:40 PM, said:

Bauchelain the Evil, on 26 April 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

Well there is the small fact that apparently she id such s bsd ruler thst her new subjects are volonteering to be sold as slaves.

That's a massive generalization. .... An ongoing theme of her character is her constant reflection and meditation on whether or not she has what it takes to be a truly good leader, to the point of exhaustion. There are times where I find myself wishing she was a bit more like Viserys, if only so she'll get to Westeros sooner.

NeoCic's nicely done post echoes my own views. Dany is a complex character and an interesting one, one of the most interesting in the series. Consider that she went from being a convenient pawn for her brother to the ruler of entire city states... far from unopposed, but that's to be expected in the world GRRM has set up. NO ONE in power is universally loved. That said, most of the opposition is coming from people who want to restore the slave-based system she deposed, which makes Dany, by any 'western standard', the white hat.

Tyr, on 27 April 2011 - 01:42 AM, said:

Neocount Cicero, on 26 April 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

To Tyr, I can't disagree that she's a bitch at times, but on the front of "grandiose delusions," if anyone is entitled to a little of those, surely it's the last surviving member of a dynasty ...

Meh. The delusion that one has a birth right of rule is just that, a delusion. ...

Those are basically the two empirical povs on dynastic rule right there... it's not like GRRM is skirting away from the notion that it can be a hideously flawed system (Joffrey, most of the more known Tarys), or from the fact that individuals in power by way of bloodline can be as effective and generous as the most democratically elected leader (Ned). Or consider the example of Jon Snow, denied power despite (or because of) his bloodline, he is still democratically elected to lead the Watch... and iirc, he's like 16 at the time.
Tapper raised some other good examples upthread.

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2011 - 03:32 AM, said:

Neocount Cicero, on 27 April 2011 - 02:00 AM, said:

I would ultimately be disappointed if he went out of character and started doing all kinds of crazy retconning just for the sake of fucking with people who have been calling things for so long.

I don't think you can call it retconning when he hasn't given his answers to these various questions...His story, his rules.

If he chooses that L + R does NOT equal Jon Snow you can't call that a retcon...it simply means you were taken in by a red herrings that lead many folk to that conclusion... and the answer is in fact much simpler.

My two cents.

QFT.
Just because people want to see a certain outcome doesn't make the author wrong.

Garak, on 27 April 2011 - 09:20 AM, said:

Ten. And we're doing ok. I'm re-reading the first book, have only to the part where Jon says goodbye to Bran and Dany's weeding still hasn't happened. Amusingly enough I have a friend who's afraid the story might be going to fast.

I'm fine with the pacing thus far, tho i still think a decent swordfight or two would have added a bit of movement to the first two eps.
I know, to an extent that the action is coming, but it being a fantasy series i want to see someone use one of those swords everyone is carrying around. And Joffrey doesn't count.

Tapper, on 27 April 2011 - 10:56 AM, said:

Tyr, on 27 April 2011 - 01:42 AM, said:

]
You Malazan guys are the best. If I wrote the same thing on westeros, I would get 10-15 huge essays defending Dany and explaining why I am an idiot and need to be euthanised. The Queensguard is hard at work at westeros.

Ooops. Seems I just shattered what you loved about this board

Nah, we're good at debate. Just less fanatical.

Could you move a bit closer to the window, btw? And maybe turn on a light so as to present a better profile? And stay still for another three seconds....

[Garak]

Quote

And Joffrey doesn't count.

He would have counted only if he managed to stab himself with it. I can't wait for a certain feast. Sadly I'll have to endure the Red Wedding first and that will be hard to watch.

[QuickTidal]

Neocount Cicero, on 27 April 2011 - 02:44 PM, said:

Jesus, Scott, you bring out the worst in me. [/font]

I try sir, I try. LOL! I loves me a good debate with a worthy opponent I do!

Abyss, on 27 April 2011 - 03:00 PM, said:

I'm fine with the pacing thus far, tho i still think a decent swordfight or two would have added a bit of movement to the first two eps.
I know, to an extent that the action is coming, but it being a fantasy series i want to see someone use one of those swords everyone is carrying around. And Joffrey doesn't count.

Yeah, but you gotta admit the Bran assassination attempt scene with Catelyn in ep 2 was made of pure fucking unadulterated "don't fuck with my son" muscle and bone scraping WIN!

[Garak]

Really? Huh, I remember it the other way around. Not that I'm complaining mind you. And the wedding will still be brutal.

[Ceda Cicero]

Garak, on 27 April 2011 - 05:17 PM, said:

Really? Huh, I remember it the other way around. Not that I'm complaining mind you. And the wedding will still be brutal.

It's definitely the other way around, because Joffrey is giddy and rubbing it in Sansa's face when he gets news of the Red Wedding. Wouldn't be the case if his feast/death had happened first.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2011 - 03:16 PM, said:

...

Abyss, on 27 April 2011 - 03:00 PM, said:

... i want to see someone use one of those swords everyone is carrying around. ...

Yeah, but you gotta admit the Bran assassination attempt scene with Catelyn in ep 2 was made of pure fucking unadulterated "don't fuck with my son" muscle and bone scraping WIN!

I said as much upthread, but i'm still waiting for someone to whack someone else with a sword with stabby intentions.
To be fair, i had the same problem with the book which doesn't exactly open with the Seige of Pale ...

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 27 April 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 27 April 2011 - 03:16 PM, said:

...

Abyss, on 27 April 2011 - 03:00 PM, said:

... i want to see someone use one of those swords everyone is carrying around. ...

Yeah, but you gotta admit the Bran assassination attempt scene with Catelyn in ep 2 was made of pure fucking unadulterated "don't fuck with my son" muscle and bone scraping WIN!

To be fair, i had the same problem with the book which doesn't exactly open with the Seige of Pale ...

Hehe, true, we only get to that stuff later on. However, ASOS is awash with blood and swords. Pun fully intended. LOL

[Traveller]

I've just started to read through GoT's again. I was just going to refresh my memory a bit, but ended up carrying on with it.

So far what has been on screen has been a really close translation of the book. Although there are minor puzzling changes (why have Tyrion waking up in a stable, instead of spending the night reading in the library?) it is pretty much the same. I'd also forgotten about Tyrions interest in dragons, and his desire to own one - now even more relevent as we know where he's heading.

What I'm fed up with already is that every scene involving Tyrion/siblings or Dany and Viserys has them continually calling each other 'sweet sister', 'sweet brother,' every goddamn other line. I don't think I noticed it before, but it sure is bugging me now.

Loving the series so far though - Arya is brilliant, Tyrion too.

[QuickTidal]

Just watched the 2nd episode a second time, this time with my girlfriend...Catelyn and Summer's defense of Bran, Sansa, Arya and Joff scene, and Bran waking up....she's hooked. After the first ep she just shrugged her shoulders..after this one she was like, oooh, when is the next one on?

YES! SUCCESS!!!!

[Tyr]

I am liking this Sandor guy. "He ran... Not very fast". What a delivery.

I have watched ep 2 like 4-5 times now.

[QuickTidal]

Tyr, on 28 April 2011 - 01:16 AM, said:

I am liking this Sandor guy. "He ran... Not very fast". What a delivery.

I have watched ep 2 like 4-5 times now.

I am glad I'm not the only one who is watching the episodes multiple times. LOL. Now I feel less dorky.

[Tyr]

Briar King, on 28 April 2011 - 03:16 AM, said:

You two Fahqing dorks......

Come at me bro.

[Cyphon]

I got your back Tyr, as I watched it again last night with my flatmate.

Godswood scene pisses me off, clunky as hell but otherwsie good stuff. The trailer for ep3 looks mmmh mmmh good.

[Abyss]

Cyphon, on 28 April 2011 - 09:01 AM, said:

...Godswood scene pisses me off, clunky as hell ...

Considering the source material from the book - Cat's running to inform Ned of the Lannister's highly secret plot against him .... way to go Cat... Ned wouldn't have figured that one out without you - they made it work well enough.

I also watched most of the second ep again. Tyrion is even better. Jon, otoh, is more whiny.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 28 April 2011 - 03:03 PM, said:

Cyphon, on 28 April 2011 - 09:01 AM, said:

...Godswood scene pisses me off, clunky as hell ...

Considering the source material from the book - Cat's running to inform Ned of the Lannister's highly secret plot against him .... way to go Cat... Ned wouldn't have figured that one out without you - they made it work well enough.

I also watched most of the second ep again. Tyrion is even better. Jon, otoh, is more whiny.

In the book Jon comes across as stoic from the get-go which always unsettled me simply because the guy is still like 17 and would not be so solid a person yet, he'd be kind of teenagery still. So here in the show where he comes across as a little whiny at times works for me. I want him to build up to the point where he is the man who will take over as Lord Commander.

That said, his scene with Bran before Catelyn growls for him to get out is very well acted in his part...and his scene with Arya is untouchably awesome and perfect to the book.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 28 April 2011 - 03:09 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

QuickTidal, on 28 April 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

Abyss, on 28 April 2011 - 03:03 PM, said:

Cyphon, on 28 April 2011 - 09:01 AM, said:

...Godswood scene pisses me off, clunky as hell ...

Considering the source material from the book - Cat's running to inform Ned of the Lannister's highly secret plot against him .... way to go Cat... Ned wouldn't have figured that one out without you - they made it work well enough.

I also watched most of the second ep again. Tyrion is even better. Jon, otoh, is more whiny.

In the book Jon comes across as stoic from the get-go which always unsettled me simply because the guy is still like 17 and would not be so solid a person yet, he'd be kind of teenagery still. So here in the show where he comes across as a little whiny at times works for me. I want him to build up to the point where he is the man who will take over as Lord Commander.

That said, his scene with Bran before Catelyn growls for him to get out is very well acted in his part...and his scene with Arya is untouchably awesome and perfect to the book.

About the scene between Cat and Jon, I may be remembering wrong, but didn't she say she wished it was him who should have fallen? Did they change it because they're trying to go for a more sympathetic approach to Cat?

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 28 April 2011 - 03:13 PM