Tyr, on 27 April 2011 - 01:42 AM, said:
Neocount Cicero, on 26 April 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:
To Tyr, I can't disagree that she's a bitch at times, but on the front of "grandiose delusions," if anyone is entitled to a little of those, surely it's the last surviving member of a dynasty that stretches back to Valyria and the individual responsible for returning dragons to the world after centuries. Viserys was consumed by the pressure brought on by his lineage - Dany, though she has definitely suffered greatly under it and it's inarguably brought out some undesirable personality traits, is not yet wholly consumed, at least in the way Viserys was.
Meh. The delusion that one has a birth right of rule is just that, a delusion.
Ehm, no. maybe from (y)our current post-modern point of view of a-theistic nihilism and with our rather young tradition representative government.
But most definately not in Martin's world. We're talking feudal dynasties there. If there was no birth right of rule, there would be no Houses to begin with, yet Martin makes clear that there have always been Starks in Winterfell holding a prominent position in the North. Not every single one of them can have been competent enough to earn that position on merit alone. Thus, we're talking birth right.
Now, you might want to say that just like the Heavenly Mandate of China and the later Middle Ages, a birth right is just a convenient lie and explanation to maintain power, an illusion.
If so, it is an illusion everyone subscribes to in Martin's Westeros, just like it was an illusion that was maintained on 97% of our civilized world for most of our written history. Therefore, if everyone accepts it as truth, even for cynical reasons such as preservation of power, is it not no longer an illusion, but truth?
Now, Martin, in his few glimpses of the lower classes and the non-heriditary clergy, shows that they too accept it is generally in everyone's interest to maintain that illusion. Overthrowing it goes against the common interest - it is not for nothing that those willing to step up in the world (the Bronns and Littlefingers and to a lesser extend, Davos) seek to do so through marriage alliances to legitimate their standing with a noble title (often without consent from their partners).
Therefore, the illusion is commonly accepted as the best and only system. It offers just enough social upward mobility through competence or money to remain viable. Therefore, those who seek to overthrow the entire system are not enlightened, but dangerous to the stability of the realm.
Westeros has a non-heriditary position of rule: that of the position of Hand of the King (basically prime minister, with varying degrees of freedom to rule) is the primary non-heriditary position of rule. Mayor of King's Landing, other positions in the King's Council, et cetera are also bestowed by the grace of the King. But the right to succession to the throne is however bestowed upon birth.
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Both Vis and Joff had it, and they made it very clear by being total cumstains. Dany has the same sense of entitlement, dont forget all her inner thoughts just going to "I am the dragon" or whatever. And the fact that she Deus ex machina'd the dragons just positively reinforced that fact. If we go by Shakespeare's quote, "some people are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them" then clearly Dany is every one of the three. It makes it quite frustrating when you dont like the character and you have nothing but a sense of the characters greatness beating you on the head every step along the way.
Unless you see it as circumstance. Martin is writing in many ways about social mobility and stagnation and overcoming the handicaps naturally present in such a society. In fact, he is actually favoring the first.
We as westerners root for a meritocracy, which is in part why we almost collectively love Jon: the somewhat priviliged yet also somewhat disadvantaged young bastard, ruled out of succession because of his birth and rising through the Night Watch on competence. The fact he's a nice guy all in all also helps - he's probably the closest to the classic archtype 'boy becomes hero and saves the world'.
The same for Bronn and Littlefinger, although they are far more cunning about it, and far less pleasant. Tyrion, aside from being a snide cunning funny little cock, also overcomes the weaknesses he can do nothing about: his physical shortcomings. Arya overcomes the traditional view of women who must knit to become an assassin.
Brienne also overcomes the gender role. Jaime only became sympathetic to me after he lost his hand.
Samwell Tarly, also defying his father's expectations and becoming a valued aid? Yeah, him too.
It seems we need this role model, and not just one, but multiples of it, because we may not like the one guy if he is there and therefore drop the series - or maybe because if there was only one, he'd be too much of a paragon to be believable, or maybe to balance the harshness of the world.
Just like we need that harshness in the form of the ambitious, cunning and/or battle hardened c**ts like Victarion, Theon, Asha, Stannis, the Viper of Dorn, Tywin and Cersei Lannister et cetera who we think are cool because they are power players and operate from a position of strength and also make good villains.
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IMO, GRRM can do 1 of 2 things. Either make Dany the big bad of the series (but you run into the problem of your villain is too overpowered) or make Dany utterly incompetent (I am talking Pormqual here). Finding some middle ground on this character is just going to lead to what everyone thinks - Dany comes to Westeros, Dragons destroy Others, the end; something which I am willing to pass on - I wouldnt recommend the series past the first 3 books to anyone if this is how it pans out.
Or she can set out to do what she does, and then something happens. There have been multiple happenstances already of people trying to manipulate her, or people's pasts forcing her to discard them. So far, she survived it relatively intact. I doubt that will continue - althemoreso because the more powerful she becomes, the less altruistic or loyal her new allies will be - they just arrive because she seems the best bet for victory. I expect a lot of macchavellian political stuff and backstabbing the closer she gets to westeros, and she may conquer it all yet end with nothing.
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You Malazan guys are the best. If I wrote the same thing on westeros, I would get 10-15 huge essays defending Dany and explaining why I am an idiot and need to be euthanised. The Queensguard is hard at work at westeros.
Ooops. Seems I just shattered what you loved about this board
Everyone is entitled to his own wrong opinion. - Lizrad
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