[Black Company]

So in MT, Corlo says, ""It had been said, by Guardsmen who would know, that [Iron Bars] was nearly a match for Skinner." Ok, Iron Bars = big time badass. I mean, he kills Rhulad by punching in his forehead. BUT, then in RotCG, Iron Bars almost gets done in by the weakest member of that Seguleh boarding party. Yes, Seguleh are probably the most feared fighters in the Wu world, but we have seen people who can take on even the best of them: Karsa had a relatively easy time with the Seguleh he sparred against [12th?] in RG, Rake stumbles his way to the 7th ranking before tiring and warrening out, and the 2nd apparently has a bone to pick with Skinner to see who's better. For a guy who is mentioned in the same breath as Skinner, who is mentioned in the same breath as the Seguleh 2nd and Dassem Ultor, seems like something is amiss.

And that brings me to Skinner. There are a couple allusions to how Skinner fought Dassem to a standstill. Yet, in their fight in RotCG, Skinner can't scratch Dassem, and the only thing keeping Dassem from carving Skinner up is the enhanced armor he got from Ardata (that's another thing, Dassem is wielding Vengeance/Grief at this point, isn't he? While not as spectacularly powerful as Dragnipur, the sword is still supposed to be pretty bad, and it can't do more than scratch the armor? There is a quote or two that alludes to Vengeance being as strong as the wielder's will, or something like that. I guess Skinner is at best #2 on Dassem's shitlist). It took a hasty exit through the CG's warren to save Skinner. The difference in skill just seems pretty glaring.

Maybe Skinner has lost a step or two. But the discrepancies between their reputations as shown throughout the SE and ICE books and their actual skill seem a bit much.

[worry]

I get what you're saying and all, and I kind of agree with you on the Skinner/Dassem thing we get to see, but I still think you're taking things a bit too rigidly. I mean all kinds of factors go into a duel, not just an individual's skill. And I know it's a fantasy novel based on an RPG, but I don't think it's particularly worthwhile to think of fighters in terms of clearly defined strata that would more or less predetermine the outcome of a fight. Circumstances take hold. Iron Bars and co. had already been to hell and back more than once before meeting up with those Seguleh. They hadn't been training for a fair fight like a couple of boxers, know what I mean?

[MTS]

My memory may be faulty, but didn't Iron Bars have a pretty deep chest wound at the time he fought the Seguleh, and fight her only with an unfamiliar sword and dirk?

As for Skinner/Dassem, it seems since Skinner got his armour his fighting style has moved more away from finesse to relying on his armour to protect him while he uses his prodigious strength to get inside his opponent's guard. Dassem, on the other hand, is now using a sword that makes him nigh unstoppable when his will is strong enough, whereas before he probably wasn't using a sword with nearly the same qualities.

This post has been edited by MTS: 06 April 2011 - 03:10 AM

[Aptorian]

 Black Company, on 06 April 2011 - 02:15 AM, said:

So in MT, Corlo says, ""It had been said, by Guardsmen who would know, that [Iron Bars] was nearly a match for Skinner." Ok, Iron Bars = big time badass. I mean, he kills Rhulad by punching in his forehead. BUT, then in RotCG, Iron Bars almost gets done in by the weakest member of that Seguleh boarding party. Yes, Seguleh are probably the most feared fighters in the Wu world, but we have seen people who can take on even the best of them: Karsa had a relatively easy time with the Seguleh he sparred against [12th?] in RG, Rake stumbles his way to the 7th ranking before tiring and warrening out, and the 2nd apparently has a bone to pick with Skinner to see who's better. For a guy who is mentioned in the same breath as Skinner, who is mentioned in the same breath as the Seguleh 2nd and Dassem Ultor, seems like something is amiss.

You can't compare all these people in this way.

Rhulad of MT was a nothing in the big scheme of things, and some would argue, he still was nothing in RG.

In RCG Iron Bars was weakened by incarceration/deprevation and had a point blank crossbow wound in his chest.

The Seguleh he faced was not even numbered, just one of the lower levels, yet that does not mean that this Seguleh was not a rising star. Could be he faced the future First of the Seguleh society.

Karsa is an ascendant whose aspect is stubborness and arrogance. If Karsa wants to kick your ass, you better be a fucking god, or he will cut you down to size. A woman who is not even half his size, was never going to beat him. He broke her wrists when she tried to block him. Never a fair fight.

Rake just stopped at the 7th because he had no wish for that fight. He had been fighting all day. For all we know he could have fought the 1st and killed him. When ever Rake went to that island it was a long long time ago, none of the not undead Seguleh were alive back then (unless the are ascended).

The 2nd has been dead for thousands of years. No way of telling where he is in the hierarchy any longer.

Skinner is never mentioned as the match of Dassem. He is mentioned as the only Guardsman to have come away alive from a confrontation with Dassem. That could just mean that Skinner saw Dassem, threw a rock at him, screamed like a little girl and ran away.

[Black Company]

I understand that just because someone is supposed to be a better swordsman, fighter, whatnot doesn't meant that they would win all the time. Otherwise, why fight it out, right? In war, shit happens, people get lucky, lesser fighters make the right move, great fighters make the wrong move. Dueling is a little bit different in that many of the chance mistakes that can befall someone in a battle (errant arrows/bolts, multiple enemies, etc.) are taken out of the picture. It's supposed to be a match of skills. Yeah, IB just finished scuffling and had a bolt taken out of his chest. But, with the reputation that has been built up not only with the Avowed, but this Avowed in particular, it threw me for a loop that he had so much trouble with this Seguleh. Even from his point of view, he was surprised at the skill and speed of his opponent, he wasn't attributing it to fatigue. Also, especially in the SE books, there are a few characters of such prowess, efficacy, that it takes something out of the ordinary to kill them. Scratch that, not only in SE books. I mean, look at Rell. He was well-nigh unkillable by conventional means. My sense from what had been written about them by SE and ICE and said about them by various characters in the book was that I could expect something similar when it came them.

[Black Company]

Apt, I can't cite page numbers but there are numerous occasions where it's said Skinner fought Dassem to a standstill, not just survived. And I about Karsa and Rake, I was making the point that even with how skilled the Seguleh are portrayed by both SE and ICE (Mok's younger bros gave Onos a run for his money, and Rell was out of this world) there are people better than them. Shrug, so I guess Iron Bars had a bad day. And Skinner has lost more than just a couple marbles with his time away. Dassem has also probably gained a step, not only with his ascension but he doesn't have an army to worry about anymore, just his sword and his list.

On a side note, Rake fights with Dragnipur which though makes for better efficiency, probably detracts from his skill somewhat. From TtH, it's metaphysical weight is staggering, even when he isn't manifesting it in reality as he did in Daru before the big fight.

[MTS]

 Clockwork Apt, on 06 April 2011 - 03:30 AM, said:

The Seguleh he faced was not even numbered, just one of the lower levels, yet that does not mean that this Seguleh was not a rising star. Could be he faced the future First of the Seguleh society.

She was in the Agatii ('the Thousand'), so she was ranked, just the lowest on the ship (Oru was in the top twenty for reference). As for Iron Bar's skill, he'd never faced a Seguleh before, and it takes longer than six heartbeats to adjust to that sort of thing. Plus, Iron Bars' strength is not so much in his swordsmanship as his incredible will to survive and keep fighting. Thus it stands to reason a fairly high-ranked Seguleh would give him a run for his money.

Quote

Skinner is never mentioned as the match of Dassem. He is mentioned as the only Guardsman to have come away alive from a confrontation with Dassem. That could just mean that Skinner saw Dassem, threw a rock at him, screamed like a little girl and ran away.

I doubt it, Skinner is mentioned as being only inferior to Blues in terms of swordsmanship, and stronger besides.

[Sinisdar Toste]

 Black Company, on 06 April 2011 - 03:56 AM, said:

Apt, I can't cite page numbers but there are numerous occasions where it's said Skinner fought Dassem to a standstill, not just survived.

I really think you should, cuz the correct wording of these passages seems pretty pivotal to your case. i`m with apt in thinking/recalling that they only mention skinner having survived a meeting with dassem.

[T-6005]

It's hard to keep someone consistent across so long, but I'd have to agree that maybe for that fight Iron Bars' skill level maybe takes a tiny little hit.

Let's be serious, any other fight we've seen Iron Bars in the guy has literally kicked the ever-loving crap out of people.

Multiple times in the series, Iron Bars is the guy you go to when you need to stick somebody somewhere and make sure that no one gets past.

I don't know how to do spoilers, otherwise I'd mention a certain graveyard and wall in a little bit more detail.

[Cyphon]

Erikson has mentioned before the contextualisation of fights.

If you are reading MT, you'd remember that Osserc, mentioned that he crossed Anomander, and is beat up, to the surprise of Sheltere Lore and another dragon Lady.

His response is,

"Cold reason cannot stand against pure fury".

Clearly implying he can fight/even/better Rake but not that day. Seeing as he's Father Light and all, against only the knight of the dark.

Skinner may well have fought Dassem to a standstill, but I'm guessing that the fight was entirely to his contextual advantage, and even then, he could only fight to a standstill. No more information is given beyond that it was to a standstill. And with Erikson, whole worlds of meaning and perception can be in that yawning gap of knowledge.

Iron Bars and Seguleh, I believe he was injured, and the Seguleh just let rip on him. It;s mentioned time and time again in the series that the warriors are formidible, but generally get their ass handed to them when they don't know what they're dealing with. Six heartbeats is not enough for even a great swordsman to realise exactly what he's against, especially if he's injured as Apt mentions.

[MTS]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 06 April 2011 - 06:07 AM, said:

 Black Company, on 06 April 2011 - 03:56 AM, said:

Apt, I can't cite page numbers but there are numerous occasions where it's said Skinner fought Dassem to a standstill, not just survived.

I really think you should, cuz the correct wording of these passages seems pretty pivotal to your case. i`m with apt in thinking/recalling that they only mention skinner having survived a meeting with dassem.

Return of the Crimson Guard:

Quote

‘The Duke, now he was a man to follow. We stopped them for a time, you know. The only ones that ever did. Skinner fought Dassem, the Sword of the Empire, to a standstill. But it broke us. We were tired, so tired. And the Duke disappeared soon after that. So we divided into companies and went our separate ways.’

[korik]

You have to remember that these are opinions from characters in the books, they have their own prejudices and views that may not be "fact", whatever that is in this series

I agree that Iron Bars was injured when fighting the Seguleh and you have to remember that since Skinner fought Dassem to a standstill, Dassem has ascended and grown in power considerably...

[L'oric]

 T-6005, on 06 April 2011 - 06:08 AM, said:

It's hard to keep someone consistent across so long, but I'd have to agree that maybe for that fight Iron Bars' skill level maybe takes a tiny little hit.

Let's be serious, any other fight we've seen Iron Bars in the guy has literally kicked the ever-loving crap out of people.

Multiple times in the series, Iron Bars is the guy you go to when you need to stick somebody somewhere and make sure that no one gets past.

I don't know how to do spoilers, otherwise I'd mention a certain graveyard and wall in a little bit more detail.

I think you forget that iron bars didnt actually lose to the seguleh. For all we know she could have been the 100th or the 30th, but regardless technically speaking the seguleh are all amazing even those not of the top 1000....see tool versus the initiates under mok. (Don't get me wrong Tool is lessened because of the drawing of silverfox and he doesnt want to actually hurt them but they are very good)

I also think that Skinner was never on par with Dassem. He survived his encounters with Dassem much like the head assassin of the crimson guard survives against topper. By running.

sincerely

[The Crazy Mob]

Quote

‘The Duke, now he was a man to follow. We stopped them for a time, you know. The only ones that ever did. Skinner fought Dassem, the Sword of the Empire, to a standstill. But it broke us. We were tired, so tired. And the Duke disappeared soon after that. So we divided into companies and went our separate ways.’

It doesn't mean that actually fought though. It could mean that Skinner's army fought Dassem's to a standstill. Especially in the context of "We stopped them for a time". That sounds like two armies in a stalemate.

[Black Company]

Bothers me alot less now; I can see Iron Bars after a long time of fighting and running and fighting and water deprivation, sun stroke, and a crossbow bolt in the chest might not be at full strength. Skinner; yeah, Blues is considered the premier swordsman in the Crimson Guard, but he's never put into context with Dassem. It's always Skinner and Dassem. There isn't really any other character in the whole series that is mentioned as an archnemesis of Dassem. Shrug. Just saying he has turned into quite the disappointment. Iron Bars is still cool.

[MTS]

Iron Bars a disappointment? Hey, anyone who can (SW spoiler)

Spoiler

choke a guy to death with someone squeezing his heart through a hole in his chest is all sorts of badass.

Skinner is only a disappointment because of his stupid armour, as the level of swordsmanship required to beat people is less - he doesn't have to worry about being hit (generally), but he does kick Greymane's ass no problem (without his sword, admittedly). The poison blade is a bit of a dick move, but the point still stands. I see a comparison with Kallor - he's still a brilliant swordsman, but Dassem has since ascended and wields Vengeance, and is without peer, so any fighter bar someone like the Seguleh First is going to be outmatched.

 The Crazy Mob, on 06 April 2011 - 01:43 PM, said:

Quote

‘The Duke, now he was a man to follow. We stopped them for a time, you know. The only ones that ever did. Skinner fought Dassem, the Sword of the Empire, to a standstill. But it broke us. We were tired, so tired. And the Duke disappeared soon after that. So we divided into companies and went our separate ways.’

It doesn't mean that actually fought though. It could mean that Skinner's army fought Dassem's to a standstill. Especially in the context of "We stopped them for a time". That sounds like two armies in a stalemate.

I agree - there was likely a military engagement going on at the time (hence the 'it broke us comment), and a situation a la the Surgen fight occurred in the middle of it. However:

Quote

It was said the Avowed were unstoppable, but Dassem had slain every one who had challenged him: Shirdar, Keal, Bartok. Only Skinner, they say, had come away alive from their clash.

The word used is 'challenged' which suggests a duel, and the fact that Dassem was the one to kill all of them means that they fought personally.

This post has been edited by MTS: 06 April 2011 - 02:56 PM

[L'oric]

 MTS, on 06 April 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Iron Bars a disappointment? Hey, anyone who can (SW spoiler)

Spoiler

choke a guy to death with someone squeezing his heart through a hole in his chest is all sorts of badass.

Skinner is only a disappointment because of his stupid armour, as the level of swordsmanship required to beat people is less - he doesn't have to worry about being hit (generally), but he does kick Greymane's ass no problem (without his sword, admittedly). The poison blade is a bit of a dick move, but the point still stands. I see a comparison with Kallor - he's still a brilliant swordsman, but Dassem has since ascended and wields Vengeance, and is without peer, so any fighter bar someone like the Seguleh First is going to be outmatched.

I would also like to point out that I can't see the poison killing Dassem anyway...not really...what is this mortal coil anyway.

Sincerely

[Abyss]

The answer is Wolverine.


But the point is that Skinner is a serious contender for "best swordsman", and that pre-Ardata-armour, he didn't die while fighting pre-God-of-Sorrw dassem, which is something. Ho'd win aside, the point, the important point, is that Skinner is a seriously dangerous dude.

IB, on the other hand, isn't ever said to be an exceptional swordsman, so much as he's said to be, paraphrasing, so willfully hardass that he can take an immense amount of punishment and keep fighting. Obviously he's good, very good, with a sword, but knock away his sword, he comes at you with his fists. Put him up against a better technical fighter, he takes a stabby to the chest in order to win the fight.

I suspect that ICE is ultimately leading to a fight between these two. At the end of RCG, the Guard is effectively split in half between K'azz' group and Skinner's Disavowed. K'azz himself may not be able to stand up to Skinner, but by the time we get to the end of ICE's books, i suspect IB will.

[nacht]

The only way to stop bars is to melt him, convert him into ball bearings, hide them in special magicked urns and spread the urns thoughout the world.

[tiam]

Very Minor SW spoiler and large TTH spoiler

Spoiler

its stated in SW by Shell I think that Blues is technically the best swordsman of the Guard while fighters such as Bars, Skinner, Lazar could over bear him using their size strength will etc. Theres no need to think Skinner is a technically brilliant swordsman he fights more like Karsa rather than the Dassem Rake duel in TTH