[Jingospice]

Black Company, on 06 April 2011 - 02:15 AM, said:

So in MT, Corlo says, ""It had been said, by Guardsmen who would know, that [Iron Bars] was nearly a match for Skinner." Ok, Iron Bars = big time badass. I mean, he kills Rhulad by punching in his forehead. BUT, then in RotCG, Iron Bars almost gets done in by the weakest member of that Seguleh boarding party. Yes, Seguleh are probably the most feared fighters in the Wu world, but we have seen people who can take on even the best of them: Karsa had a relatively easy time with the Seguleh he sparred against [12th?] in RG, Rake stumbles his way to the 7th ranking before tiring and warrening out, and the 2nd apparently has a bone to pick with Skinner to see who's better. For a guy who is mentioned in the same breath as Skinner, who is mentioned in the same breath as the Seguleh 2nd and Dassem Ultor, seems like something is amiss.

And that brings me to Skinner. There are a couple allusions to how Skinner fought Dassem to a standstill. Yet, in their fight in RotCG, Skinner can't scratch Dassem, and the only thing keeping Dassem from carving Skinner up is the enhanced armor he got from Ardata (that's another thing, Dassem is wielding Vengeance/Grief at this point, isn't he? While not as spectacularly powerful as Dragnipur, the sword is still supposed to be pretty bad, and it can't do more than scratch the armor? There is a quote or two that alludes to Vengeance being as strong as the wielder's will, or something like that. I guess Skinner is at best #2 on Dassem's shitlist). It took a hasty exit through the CG's warren to save Skinner. The difference in skill just seems pretty glaring.

Maybe Skinner has lost a step or two. But the discrepancies between their reputations as shown throughout the SE and ICE books and their actual skill seem a bit much.

I completely agree on the point about Iron Bars. He fought multiple Toblakai gods solo, and was then able to kill them with the help of Ublala. I understand that he had an arrow in his chest, but he is an avowed. It seems as if he should have been able to come away from the fight with the Seguleh with out a mortal wound.

But about Skinner and Dassem, i think by this point it has been decided that Dassem is in the top three or four best fighters in the world (Rake, and the Seguleh 1st and 2nd being the others). I dont think they fought to a standstill the last time they dueled, I think Skinner just managed to get away with out dying (this could mean that he took a mortal wound but didnt die because he is an avowed).

[Aptorian]

Iron Bars was fighting the Seregahl with the assistance of Corlo, with out him it would have been impossible. Also, even though he claimed he was "limited" I suspect the Errant was also pushing.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

And he was going to die anyway at the end if Silchas hadn't stepped in.

[MTS]

Jingospice, on 18 April 2011 - 02:46 AM, said:

Black Company, on 06 April 2011 - 02:15 AM, said:

So in MT, Corlo says, ""It had been said, by Guardsmen who would know, that [Iron Bars] was nearly a match for Skinner." Ok, Iron Bars = big time badass. I mean, he kills Rhulad by punching in his forehead. BUT, then in RotCG, Iron Bars almost gets done in by the weakest member of that Seguleh boarding party. Yes, Seguleh are probably the most feared fighters in the Wu world, but we have seen people who can take on even the best of them: Karsa had a relatively easy time with the Seguleh he sparred against [12th?] in RG, Rake stumbles his way to the 7th ranking before tiring and warrening out, and the 2nd apparently has a bone to pick with Skinner to see who's better. For a guy who is mentioned in the same breath as Skinner, who is mentioned in the same breath as the Seguleh 2nd and Dassem Ultor, seems like something is amiss.

And that brings me to Skinner. There are a couple allusions to how Skinner fought Dassem to a standstill. Yet, in their fight in RotCG, Skinner can't scratch Dassem, and the only thing keeping Dassem from carving Skinner up is the enhanced armor he got from Ardata (that's another thing, Dassem is wielding Vengeance/Grief at this point, isn't he? While not as spectacularly powerful as Dragnipur, the sword is still supposed to be pretty bad, and it can't do more than scratch the armor? There is a quote or two that alludes to Vengeance being as strong as the wielder's will, or something like that. I guess Skinner is at best #2 on Dassem's shitlist). It took a hasty exit through the CG's warren to save Skinner. The difference in skill just seems pretty glaring.

Maybe Skinner has lost a step or two. But the discrepancies between their reputations as shown throughout the SE and ICE books and their actual skill seem a bit much.

I completely agree on the point about Iron Bars. He fought multiple Toblakai gods solo, and was then able to kill them with the help of Ublala. I understand that he had an arrow in his chest, but he is an avowed. It seems as if he should have been able to come away from the fight with the Seguleh with out a mortal wound.

But about Skinner and Dassem, i think by this point it has been decided that Dassem is in the top three or four best fighters in the world (Rake, and the Seguleh 1st and 2nd being the others). I dont think they fought to a standstill the last time they dueled, I think Skinner just managed to get away with out dying (this could mean that he took a mortal wound but didnt die because he is an avowed).

I'll write it again:

Quote

Skinner fought Dassem, the Sword of the Empire, to a standstill.

It's emphatically stated in black and white that 'he fought him to a standstill.' Not that he merely survived or ran away, but that despite his best efforts, Dassem physically couldn't kill him. Now, that was way back, pre-armour and pre-ascension, in the days of the Stratem invasions. Guy came within inches of killing the Emperor as well, don't forget that. Nowadays Skinner is more powerful thanks to Ardata, but Dassem is also much more powerful due to the fact he is an Ascendant. So that's why the fight was much more anticlimactic than people were hoping for. However, it is illogical to then say that because of that fight Skinner was a weak little bitch back in the day that walked away from Dassem not through skill but cowardice. No, Dassem just got miles more powerful than he did.

As for Iron Bars, Apt and BtE are right, it was in no way a solo effort, but the part he did play was pretty extraordinary nonetheless. He was also facing opponents who weren't practiced at fighting together as well IIRC, and so got in each other's way. Plus that fight was more about endurance and not being hit than the duel with Leal. You're forgetting that fight barely lasted ten seconds. It's less an indictment of Iron Bars' skill than a testament to Leal's that she managed to score so many hits in such a small window (and with a dirk in her chest at one point to boot). As for the Seguleh, form is everything. Duels are lost in an instant due to inferior technique. Thus when it's stated that every swipe from Leal was aimed at an artery or tendon or whatever, when he gets hit it's not as if it's going to be a mere flesh wound either.

[Jingospice]

MTS, on 18 April 2011 - 06:17 AM, said:

Jingospice, on 18 April 2011 - 02:46 AM, said:

Black Company, on 06 April 2011 - 02:15 AM, said:

So in MT, Corlo says, ""It had been said, by Guardsmen who would know, that [Iron Bars] was nearly a match for Skinner." Ok, Iron Bars = big time badass. I mean, he kills Rhulad by punching in his forehead. BUT, then in RotCG, Iron Bars almost gets done in by the weakest member of that Seguleh boarding party. Yes, Seguleh are probably the most feared fighters in the Wu world, but we have seen people who can take on even the best of them: Karsa had a relatively easy time with the Seguleh he sparred against [12th?] in RG, Rake stumbles his way to the 7th ranking before tiring and warrening out, and the 2nd apparently has a bone to pick with Skinner to see who's better. For a guy who is mentioned in the same breath as Skinner, who is mentioned in the same breath as the Seguleh 2nd and Dassem Ultor, seems like something is amiss.

And that brings me to Skinner. There are a couple allusions to how Skinner fought Dassem to a standstill. Yet, in their fight in RotCG, Skinner can't scratch Dassem, and the only thing keeping Dassem from carving Skinner up is the enhanced armor he got from Ardata (that's another thing, Dassem is wielding Vengeance/Grief at this point, isn't he? While not as spectacularly powerful as Dragnipur, the sword is still supposed to be pretty bad, and it can't do more than scratch the armor? There is a quote or two that alludes to Vengeance being as strong as the wielder's will, or something like that. I guess Skinner is at best #2 on Dassem's shitlist). It took a hasty exit through the CG's warren to save Skinner. The difference in skill just seems pretty glaring.

Maybe Skinner has lost a step or two. But the discrepancies between their reputations as shown throughout the SE and ICE books and their actual skill seem a bit much.

I completely agree on the point about Iron Bars. He fought multiple Toblakai gods solo, and was then able to kill them with the help of Ublala. I understand that he had an arrow in his chest, but he is an avowed. It seems as if he should have been able to come away from the fight with the Seguleh with out a mortal wound.

But about Skinner and Dassem, i think by this point it has been decided that Dassem is in the top three or four best fighters in the world (Rake, and the Seguleh 1st and 2nd being the others). I dont think they fought to a standstill the last time they dueled, I think Skinner just managed to get away with out dying (this could mean that he took a mortal wound but didnt die because he is an avowed).

I'll write it again:

Quote

Skinner fought Dassem, the Sword of the Empire, to a standstill.

It's emphatically stated in black and white that 'he fought him to a standstill.' Not that he merely survived or ran away, but that despite his best efforts, Dassem physically couldn't kill him. Now, that was way back, pre-armour and pre-ascension, in the days of the Stratem invasions. Guy came within inches of killing the Emperor as well, don't forget that. Nowadays Skinner is more powerful thanks to Ardata, but Dassem is also much more powerful due to the fact he is an Ascendant. So that's why the fight was much more anticlimactic than people were hoping for. However, it is illogical to then say that because of that fight Skinner was a weak little bitch back in the day that walked away from Dassem not through skill but cowardice. No, Dassem just got miles more powerful than he did.

As for Iron Bars, Apt and BtE are right, it was in no way a solo effort, but the part he did play was pretty extraordinary nonetheless. He was also facing opponents who weren't practiced at fighting together as well IIRC, and so got in each other's way. Plus that fight was more about endurance and not being hit than the duel with Leal. You're forgetting that fight barely lasted ten seconds. It's less an indictment of Iron Bars' skill than a testament to Leal's that she managed to score so many hits in such a small window (and with a dirk in her chest at one point to boot). As for the Seguleh, form is everything. Duels are lost in an instant due to inferior technique. Thus when it's stated that every swipe from Leal was aimed at an artery or tendon or whatever, when he gets hit it's not as if it's going to be a mere flesh wound either.

Correct me if I am wrong but he was the mortal sword of hood, or else the knight of death (same thing I think) BEFORE he was betrayed. So when he fought Skinner he was already an ascendant (explained more in later books, but implied in NOK). And Skinner was an avowed, so things like a slice across the neck or a stab to the heart would not kill him. Im not saying that Skinner had no skills or was a coward, but I dont think he was as good a fighter as Dassem. If he were equal to Dassem, he wouldn't have a need for the armor (which only seemed to make him worse). I pictured their battle not so much of a draw skill wise, but Skinner's skill combined with his near immortality allowed him to keep pace with Dassem because he was able to keep fighting after taking mortal wounds.

[Sinisdar Toste]

holding a position in a house doesn't necessarily make you an ascendant, neither does being a mortal sword. it's right there in the title, mortal.

[Silencer]

I think the problem here is PoV. "Skinner managed to walk away", "Fought Dassem to a standstill" and the fact that the two themselves have never talked about it doesn't exactly give us a firm footing. When it comes down to it, it was a member of the Guard who said Dassem and Skinner's fight ended in a standstill. Which is a biased PoV coming only, presumably, from what they heard from Skinner - or, if they witnessed it, that would be different, but there's no say here or there on that issue.

So what it comes down to is Chinese Whispers, basically. Unless someone in the know recounts that duel for us, we can't say how it went down, only how people *think* it went down. And then we have to take the latest duel which we've actually seen into account, which is basically Dassem handing an overly arrogant Skinner his ass. It's not a great benchmark, but it's all we have to go on, and tells us how they stand NOW, with a *possible* show of what might have gone down last time, but nothing set in stone.

It's like all the Rake vs X topics. We just don't KNOW how they'd go down, until they do or don't.

[Jingospice]

Sinisdar Toste, on 19 April 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:

holding a position in a house doesn't necessarily make you an ascendant, neither does being a mortal sword. it's right there in the title, mortal.

From MOI [quote] Dassem Ultor, who was broken by Hood's taking of his daughter at the Time of the Chaining...Dassem, his Champion - Dessembrae- had grown to rival his power[quote]

He was alive and present at the Chaining, he had grown to almost rival Hood's power, he was probably an ascendant.

[IgnatiusKruppe]

Also, the top ranked Seguleh there was in the top 20, and there didn't seem to be anything to suggest that Leel was ranked that much lower


It's hard to figure out Seguleh though.. I'd think that once you got past the seriously epic Seguleh that the 10th-100th would be fairly similar and
just mildly epic world-shattering fighters..But then i start thinking that if the differences weren't major they'd be fighting each other all the time.

I just can't really wrap my head around how there could be that much distinguishing the (at highest) 35th that pressed Iron F'n Bars and
the one Karsa fought in the teens.

Also.. I can suspend disbelief enough to accept that Iron Bars didn't know who Seguleh are, but Corlo really didn't have anything to add
when Iron Bars asked who Seguleh are? Just seems like average people the world over have some sort of knowledge of the Seguleh
and it makes no sense why Avowed wouldn't, Then again I guess he could have been on Assail & then Lether for the majority of his life and
therefore deprived of the wonderful new summer blockbuster, "Rake Meets The Seguleh"

[Shrug]

I don't really see why no one has considered this possibility, but when it's said 'Skinner fought Dassem to a standstill', the following sentence--'it broke US'--should already be a telltale. Why should Skinner and Dassem fighting individually break up the Crimson Guard?

Simple. Skinner did not fight Dassem, personally, to a standstill. Skinner's ARMY fought Dassem's besieging ARMY to a standstill. It was a duel of strategy and tactics, not a duel of sword skills. This is why the result of their duel are completely different from expectations, and this is why no one else ever really talks about it. It was a battle, not a duel. If Skinner had indeed personally fought Dassem before, why did he not recognise Dassem during their actual duel?

Of course, I'm only just through RotCG so I might have missed details from later in the series...but without that, 'it broke us' is already clear enough that it's not talking about just the two of them.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Shrug, on 17 August 2011 - 09:43 AM, said:

I don't really see why no one has considered this possibility, but when it's said 'Skinner fought Dassem to a standstill', the following sentence--'it broke US'--should already be a telltale. Why should Skinner and Dassem fighting individually break up the Crimson Guard?

Simple. Skinner did not fight Dassem, personally, to a standstill. Skinner's ARMY fought Dassem's besieging ARMY to a standstill. It was a duel of strategy and tactics, not a duel of sword skills. This is why the result of their duel are completely different from expectations, and this is why no one else ever really talks about it. It was a battle, not a duel. If Skinner had indeed personally fought Dassem before, why did he not recognise Dassem during their actual duel?

Of course, I'm only just through RotCG so I might have missed details from later in the series...but without that, 'it broke us' is already clear enough that it's not talking about just the two of them.

Well Dassem has changed drasticly from when they first fought one another (supposing that they did). This would explain
why he didn't recognize him. Also I recall all this happening in the evening?? so who knows what Skinner thought he saw.
all we know for sure is that Dassem was the last thing He'd expect. After all according to all reports Dassem was
dead.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

@Shrug:Only problem being that in NoK Temper muses on how everyone thought the Awoved were unstoppable, yet Dassem killed all those he fought with the exception of Skinner.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 17 August 2011 - 09:54 AM

[Shrug]

@Bauchelain: RIght, I haven't seen NoK yet so that's a piece I am missing. That does change things.

Strange why the Avowed talking about Skinner fighting Dassem would equate their fight with breaking the Crimson Guard up though...the duel and the battle are two separate things on two entirely different scales. I'll work my way into NoK and look at the context, because what Temper says is actually quite ambiguous, assuming you are quoting directly?

[Whiskey Bass]

Shrug, on 17 August 2011 - 09:57 AM, said:

@Bauchelain: RIght, I haven't seen NoK yet so that's a piece I am missing. That does change things.

Strange why the Avowed talking about Skinner fighting Dassem would equate their fight with breaking the Crimson Guard up though...the duel and the battle are two separate things on two entirely different scales. I'll work my way into NoK and look at the context, because what Temper says is actually quite ambiguous, assuming you are quoting directly?

although Skinner may not be the best swordsman the guard had, he was still superbly skilled and super strong which is an incredibly dangerous combination, this man would be seen as an unstopable champion/talisman to his fellow guard,.

to see Dassem kill four or five other guardsmen(probably unheard of at the time) and then subdue their most fearsome martial champion, would have catastrophic effects on the morale of the surounding guard.

one weak link can be the cause of a battle turning

imo

This post has been edited by Wily Tuchuk: 14 October 2011 - 02:45 PM

[Seiko]

Skinner does recognize Dassem during their duel. He points at him and says something that couldn't be heard from whomever's POV we see the duel from. And Dassem reacts uncharacteristically when Skinner's name is brought up by Kyle & Co. while they're traveling together. I think they did duel to a standstill in the past, but by the time ROTCG rolls around Dassem has obviously surpassed him.

This post has been edited by Seiko: 17 August 2011 - 06:50 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Shrug, on 17 August 2011 - 09:57 AM, said:

@Bauchelain: RIght, I haven't seen NoK yet so that's a piece I am missing. That does change things.

Strange why the Avowed talking about Skinner fighting Dassem would equate their fight with breaking the Crimson Guard up though...the duel and the battle are two separate things on two entirely different scales. I'll work my way into NoK and look at the context, because what Temper says is actually quite ambiguous, assuming you are quoting directly?

Here's the actual quote from NoK.

'It was said the Awoved were unstoppable, but Dassem had slain every one who had challenged him: Shirdar, Keal, Bartok. Only Skinner, they say, had come away alive from their clash.'

[worry]

It seems likely that they would clash in the context of a battle between the Guard and the Empire. It wasn't like a formal duel or anything, but they did personally fight, AND it was during a military clash, AND the outcome of their fight (along with the several other dead Avowed) rocked the Guard.

[seint kanem's shadowrope]

Black Company, on 06 April 2011 - 02:15 AM, said:

So in MT, Corlo says, ""It had been said, by Guardsmen who would know, that [Iron Bars] was nearly a match for Skinner." Ok, Iron Bars = big time badass. I mean, he kills Rhulad by punching in his forehead. BUT, then in RotCG, Iron Bars almost gets done in by the weakest member of that Seguleh boarding party. Yes, Seguleh are probably the most feared fighters in the Wu world, but we have seen people who can take on even the best of them: Karsa had a relatively easy time with the Seguleh he sparred against [12th?] in RG, Rake stumbles his way to the 7th ranking before tiring and warrening out, and the 2nd apparently has a bone to pick with Skinner to see who's better. For a guy who is mentioned in the same breath as Skinner, who is mentioned in the same breath as the Seguleh 2nd and Dassem Ultor, seems like something is amiss.

And that brings me to Skinner. There are a couple allusions to how Skinner fought Dassem to a standstill. Yet, in their fight in RotCG, Skinner can't scratch Dassem, and the only thing keeping Dassem from carving Skinner up is the enhanced armor he got from Ardata (that's another thing, Dassem is wielding Vengeance/Grief at this point, isn't he? While not as spectacularly powerful as Dragnipur, the sword is still supposed to be pretty bad, and it can't do more than scratch the armor? There is a quote or two that alludes to Vengeance being as strong as the wielder's will, or something like that. I guess Skinner is at best #2 on Dassem's shitlist). It took a hasty exit through the CG's warren to save Skinner. The difference in skill just seems pretty glaring.

Maybe Skinner has lost a step or two. But the discrepancies between their reputations as shown throughout the SE and ICE books and their actual skill seem a bit much.

about skinners skills compared to dassem we only get ppl's opinions or the rumors they heard as we continue reading. reading dassem owning skinner in ROTCG tells you some of those rumors are not true, or they are half truths. skinner might be good but i think his skills are exaggerated. within the CG and those they faced he might have been impressive, but facing dassem we saw what happened, so i think you should judge their skills based on their fight, not based on what carlo or others "think". skinner ran away from dassem and then in SW he ran from iron bars. i dont see dassem running from anybody. skinner needs an amor to protect him, dassem does not. skinner rolls with a squad, dassem is alone. from these you can see dassem is stronger in skill and personality, skinner is like kallor, an oppurtunist and both of them got owned by dassem. about the seguleh 2, maybe skinner ran away before he got punked by the seguleh, we know he likes to run. i believe even mok will beat skinner. onos toolan should have almost the same skill as dassem, and mok owned him who is seguleh 3, i dont think skinner can match the seguleh 2 regardless of all the rumors. regarding iron bars, i think he will match skinner but not dassem, remember in SW on the wall the former champion before iron bars said iron bars reminds him of dassem but he is not as smooth a fighter as dassem. even blues can match skinner and i dont see any of them beating dassem. the only ones i can see beating dassem are the seguleh, mok and the no.2, but he might give them a run for their money but not seguleh 1, thats impossible. about skinners armor and grief, clearly it shows the armor's strength, i dont think this is something you need to worry about, its a powerful armor, thats why he dons it, without it he would have been dead, or he will be easier to kill.

This post has been edited by seint kanem's shadowrope: 14 October 2011 - 01:27 AM

[seint kanem's shadowrope]

Aptorian Sharktopus, on 06 April 2011 - 03:30 AM, said:

Black Company, on 06 April 2011 - 02:15 AM, said:

So in MT, Corlo says, ""It had been said, by Guardsmen who would know, that [Iron Bars] was nearly a match for Skinner." Ok, Iron Bars = big time badass. I mean, he kills Rhulad by punching in his forehead. BUT, then in RotCG, Iron Bars almost gets done in by the weakest member of that Seguleh boarding party. Yes, Seguleh are probably the most feared fighters in the Wu world, but we have seen people who can take on even the best of them: Karsa had a relatively easy time with the Seguleh he sparred against [12th?] in RG, Rake stumbles his way to the 7th ranking before tiring and warrening out, and the 2nd apparently has a bone to pick with Skinner to see who's better. For a guy who is mentioned in the same breath as Skinner, who is mentioned in the same breath as the Seguleh 2nd and Dassem Ultor, seems like something is amiss.

You can't compare all these people in this way.

Rhulad of MT was a nothing in the big scheme of things, and some would argue, he still was nothing in RG.

In RCG Iron Bars was weakened by incarceration/deprevation and had a point blank crossbow wound in his chest.

The Seguleh he faced was not even numbered, just one of the lower levels, yet that does not mean that this Seguleh was not a rising star. Could be he faced the future First of the Seguleh society.

Karsa is an ascendant whose aspect is stubborness and arrogance. If Karsa wants to kick your ass, you better be a fucking god, or he will cut you down to size. A woman who is not even half his size, was never going to beat him. He broke her wrists when she tried to block him. Never a fair fight.

Rake just stopped at the 7th because he had no wish for that fight. He had been fighting all day. For all we know he could have fought the 1st and killed him. When ever Rake went to that island it was a long long time ago, none of the not undead Seguleh were alive back then (unless the are ascended).

The 2nd has been dead for thousands of years. No way of telling where he is in the hierarchy any longer.

Skinner is never mentioned as the match of Dassem. He is mentioned as the only Guardsman to have come away alive from a confrontation with Dassem. That could just mean that Skinner saw Dassem, threw a rock at him, screamed like a little girl and ran away.

just point of correction about rake on the seguleh island. he only fought for 1 hour 30 mins (or 3 bells i think - check MOI), he did not fight all day. he came in arrogantly and was walking around when he got challenged, and after he ran like skinner into his warren he was so distrouted he never went back. when he saw mok in MOI he told picker to walk with him before mok woke up, he did not want that fight.

[seint kanem's shadowrope]

Shrug, on 17 August 2011 - 09:57 AM, said:

@Bauchelain: RIght, I haven't seen NoK yet so that's a piece I am missing. That does change things.

Strange why the Avowed talking about Skinner fighting Dassem would equate their fight with breaking the Crimson Guard up though...the duel and the battle are two separate things on two entirely different scales. I'll work my way into NoK and look at the context, because what Temper says is actually quite ambiguous, assuming you are quoting directly?

its possible during the clash of dassems army and the CG army, skinner and dassem dueled personally. so their armies fought which broke the CG, and the commanders did as well leading to the stand still. but i have a question though. in NOK the 7 cities champions dassem beat, were they the same avowed of the CG, or were they different? i dont remember the line dassem killing the avowed but i remember him destroying each of the 7 cities champions