[LordofTheFallen]

Does everyone remember Ho from RotCG? He was a human d'ivers. he had 7-9 souls in him and allong with giving him great magical power it helped keep him alive. (his body was damaged and the soul housing it would die, but another would step up to the plate, heal the body, and continue on.) When Ho was hit by magic and "Killed" one of his souls died and another replaced it and healed the body and so on. But it didn't make him a completely different person or anything. He was exactly the same.

If Quick Ben is the same way, with 12 souls inside him, then he shouldn't need to switch between them for anything, everything they know gets implanted onto his dominant soul, and if needed all the others can die off and he won't loose anything. I highly doubt that he is an ascendant of any kind (it was said that you could tell cause they radiated power) and I don't think "Adaephon" is anything more than a middle name. I think he was simply the most fit vessel for a bunch of mages on the run, and he kept them alive.

In a way he is like gruntle, except his "followers" abandoned their bodies when they joined him, but as with gruntle, he doesn't need the individual souls once he is "sembled" (think of QB as permanently sembled" if he looses one, no big deal. And just like gruntle I imagine he can feel every thought that they have simotaniously.

[Sinisdar Toste]

LordofTheFallen, on 30 June 2011 - 03:45 AM, said:

Does everyone remember Ho from RotCG? He was a human d'ivers. he had 7-9 souls in him and allong with giving him great magical power it helped keep him alive. (his body was damaged and the soul housing it would die, but another would step up to the plate, heal the body, and continue on.) When Ho was hit by magic and "Killed" one of his souls died and another replaced it and healed the body and so on. But it didn't make him a completely different person or anything. He was exactly the same.

let me stop you right there. cuz i don't know where you got any of this. the way i understood it, was that Ho was once a man, and he was experimenting with the ritual that creates soletaken and d'ivers. whatever he did, it split his body into at least four separate d'ivers bodies. he was betrayed by them, and the original Ho ended up in the otataral mines, still powerful and potent, but trapped and not to concerned about it. his d'ivers bodies continued to live in li heng and became known to silk. all of the d'ivers bodies of the man known as Ho have the vigour and potency of a regular d'ivers, but they don't want to be sembled again, until Ho, the original, returns at the end of the book and forces them to do it. as far as i'm aware, he never had more than one soul.

[Mcflury]

And I also think it was very well written in tCG, near the end, when Paran (Ganoes ofc) end QB had a conversation. In this it was often mentioned that QB touched face, and Ganoes explicitly wonders whether this is some sort of personal ritual to change dominant soul. And indeed, if you read the passage careful (can't quote or anything because I'm just pulling this from memory, not from actual detailed words) you can see that indeed whenever he touched his face some small personality change occurs. I don't really remember what changes exactly occurred, but I do remember thinking "heh, cool, so here we can actually see QB change face all the time" when I read it.

So, since we can see QB does indeed change souls I assume this is a pretty good proof that he actually does so. (and with change souls I mean make another of his souls dominant over the rest) Because if it wasn't needed, why would he do it anyway?

[Gatekeeper]

Agree.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Mcflury, on 30 June 2011 - 07:42 AM, said:

And I also think it was very well written in tCG, near the end, when Paran (Ganoes ofc) end QB had a conversation. In this it was often mentioned that QB touched face, and Ganoes explicitly wonders whether this is some sort of personal ritual to change dominant soul. And indeed, if you read the passage careful (can't quote or anything because I'm just pulling this from memory, not from actual detailed words) you can see that indeed whenever he touched his face some small personality change occurs. I don't really remember what changes exactly occurred, but I do remember thinking "heh, cool, so here we can actually see QB change face all the time" when I read it.

So, since we can see QB does indeed change souls I assume this is a pretty good proof that he actually does so. (and with change souls I mean make another of his souls dominant over the rest) Because if it wasn't needed, why would he do it anyway?

i'm definitely gonna have to pay more attention to his mannerisms when i get into the second half of the series on my reread, see if i can pick out any more subtle personality changes

[Gatekeeper]

It took me awhile to come up with the theory I must say, mostly wirh help from Paran. I come to think he doesn't soul shift, he simply accesses what he need from the "soul vault@

[Mcflury]

Sinisdar Toste, on 01 July 2011 - 04:37 AM, said:

i'm definitely gonna have to pay more attention to his mannerisms when i get into the second half of the series on my reread, see if i can pick out any more subtle personality changes

Aye I'm not too sure he does it before tCG as well, but at least in that one paragraph of tCG he does obviously change souls that way (and only then I picked it up because Paran said it )
But it might indeed be interesting to see whether it's a general habit of his throughout the whole series... might give us some more QB insights

[D'rek]

Sinisdar Toste, on 01 July 2011 - 04:37 AM, said:

Mcflury, on 30 June 2011 - 07:42 AM, said:

And I also think it was very well written in tCG, near the end, when Paran (Ganoes ofc) end QB had a conversation. In this it was often mentioned that QB touched face, and Ganoes explicitly wonders whether this is some sort of personal ritual to change dominant soul. And indeed, if you read the passage careful (can't quote or anything because I'm just pulling this from memory, not from actual detailed words) you can see that indeed whenever he touched his face some small personality change occurs. I don't really remember what changes exactly occurred, but I do remember thinking "heh, cool, so here we can actually see QB change face all the time" when I read it.

So, since we can see QB does indeed change souls I assume this is a pretty good proof that he actually does so. (and with change souls I mean make another of his souls dominant over the rest) Because if it wasn't needed, why would he do it anyway?

i'm definitely gonna have to pay more attention to his mannerisms when i get into the second half of the series on my reread, see if i can pick out any more subtle personality changes

After first hearing that theory I re-read the part of MoI where he wakes up with Talamandas and they have a loaded conversation full of arcane knowledge. I didn't note any particular references to head-touching.

[Fiddler Fisher]

excuse me if someone has already mentioned this possibility... i know some have touched upon the subject of a reverse d'ivers. but has anyone actually thought that QB somehow became or was a true d'ivers?
there is no information from the books of what happened in the dessert, but what we do know is that in DoD QB or something with a high mage's power looking like QB either dies or somehow disappears.
in of tCG (i don't remember the details and i have the book on loan) QB takes the scepter from something (shadow, dark or k'chain i believe), and is riding down from from a mountain on a horse of (dark?). daring someone (or something) that if they want it, they can come and get it. I'm not sure but if i remember right that mountain was on the outskirts of the BH vs short tails battle. maybe QB veered back together at the last minute?

P.S. sorry for all the question marks, i don't know the series as much as most of you i've only read it once

[champ]

Young Boy, on 02 July 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

excuse me if someone has already mentioned this possibility... i know some have touched upon the subject of a reverse d'ivers. but has anyone actually thought that QB somehow became or was a true d'ivers?
there is no information from the books of what happened in the dessert, but what we do know is that in DoD QB or something with a high mage's power looking like QB either dies or somehow disappears.
in of tCG (i don't remember the details and i have the book on loan) QB takes the scepter from something (shadow, dark or k'chain i believe), and is riding down from from a mountain on a horse of (dark?). daring someone (or something) that if they want it, they can come and get it. I'm not sure but if i remember right that mountain was on the outskirts of the BH vs short tails battle. maybe QB veered back together at the last minute?

P.S. sorry for all the question marks, i don't know the series as much as most of you i've only read it once

At the end of DoD I think it's just a case that QB teleported out the way before he was blown up... He throws his hands up before he was hit by the blast and that is what probably saved him...

It's not like it's the first time he has done something like this... In the earlier Malazan campaigns in Blackdog (iirc) he was known as Rool the Rude (sp?) who was apparently killed then too...

When QB reappears in tCG he's actually at the Spar of Andii (featured in GoTM) in the depths of Chaos...

[Fiddler Fisher]

champ, on 02 July 2011 - 06:49 AM, said:

Fiddler Fisher, on 02 July 2011 - 06:32 AM, said:

excuse me if someone has already mentioned this possibility... i know some have touched upon the subject of a reverse d'ivers. but has anyone actually thought that QB somehow became or was a true d'ivers?
there is no information from the books of what happened in the dessert, but what we do know is that in DoD QB or something with a high mage's power looking like QB either dies or somehow disappears.
in of tCG (i don't remember the details and i have the book on loan) QB takes the scepter from something (shadow, dark or k'chain i believe), and is riding down from from a mountain on a horse of (dark?). daring someone (or something) that if they want it, they can come and get it. I'm not sure but if i remember right that mountain was on the outskirts of the BH vs short tails battle. maybe QB veered back together at the last minute?

P.S. sorry for all the question marks, i don't know the series as much as most of you i've only read it once

At the end of DoD I think it's just a case that QB teleported out the way before he was blown up... He throws his hands up before he was hit by the blast and that is what probably saved him...

It's not like it's the first time he has done something like this... In the earlier Malazan campaigns in Blackdog (iirc) he was known as Rool the Rude (sp?) who was apparently killed then too...

When QB reappears in tCG he's actually at the Spar of Andii (featured in GoTM) in the depths of Chaos...

Thanks for the info, but that still doesn't help the cause, except proving that QB has something to do with the TA. by the fact that he stole the scepter more likely of dark. i still believe that QB is a d'ivers. come to think of it, there are mentions of d'ivers "smelling" like soletaken, so that could help this cause. Something that SE did do was leave a lot of loose ends with his characters. there was only one character he wrapped up fully, and that was fiddler. so we don't know what scheme QB does after the series ends. Who knows maybe he dies for real that time.

edit:
When QB nearly goes insane aboard the transports on the way to malaz city before the betrayal, it could be that he is sembled and would die for real if things went wrong. (and just to spite myself () could also mean that he is having trouble controlling the other souls.)

This post has been edited by Fiddler Fisher: 02 July 2011 - 08:12 AM

[Gatekeeper]

What Champ said. QB, in my opinion, didnt have all these obvious clues of taking knowledge from souls pre TCG, but I think SE saw that all of this ravaged our thoughts, so put in little head nods to the fans. For us, I would say. The Spar of Andii was one such .

[ergault]

Dolorous Menhir, on 06 April 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

Wasn't there another reference to Quick Ben as a "snake" in The Crippled God? Not sure where it occurred, but it stuck in my mind given that it's been suggested in the past.

stormy mentions it to lostara lil after she mentions that QB mentions that he didnt think gesler and stormy were dead after their abduction...not to mention that stormy mentions that maybe QB aint as dead as ppl think mentioning that hes a snake and always will be a snake

[worry]

Ah, now that you mention it...

[Fiddler Fisher]

ergault, on 04 July 2011 - 04:12 AM, said:

Dolorous Menhir, on 06 April 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

Wasn't there another reference to Quick Ben as a "snake" in The Crippled God? Not sure where it occurred, but it stuck in my mind given that it's been suggested in the past.

stormy mentions it to lostara lil after she mentions that QB mentions that he didnt think gesler and stormy were dead after their abduction...not to mention that stormy mentions that maybe QB aint as dead as ppl think mentioning that hes a snake and always will be a snake

i believe that in another QB thread someone mentioned that SE said Quick wasn't a snake. I'm kinda willing to question his sources though, as i have seen no evidence of such an interview (i haven't looked very hard though) if anyone would be willing to search for that interview, as i generally have horrible luck with google searches.

[dktorode]

I've read the actual interview where SE says QB is not a snake soletaken specifically....dont ask me to find it though.

[Lister of Smeg]

But SE also said there were no Hounds of Light and that we wouldn't see Whiskeyjack again after MoI, so I'd take anything he says with a pinch of salt.

[LordofTheFallen]

i think we can rule out Quick as a d'ivers, since they need to eat living flesh in order to create more of themselves. So unless Quick is chowing down on small woodland creatures in his spare time he wouldn't have more than one body (since all the bodies his souls inhabited are now dead). That said, it is possible that he may be a soletaken. If the TA within him was a soletaken then it may have made Quick one too. Though I think that something like this would have come up somewhere in the last ten books if he was able to turn into a dragon.

As to him switching between souls, when Dejim Nebrahl was still trapped in hi prison and he was getting released, he has access to all seven of his souls at the same time while they were all in one body, he didn't have to switch back and forth. Though dejim was created specifically to house those seven souls (though he could apparently make more) so it may have been different from Quick who had 12 in one body and had got them spur of the moment.

[Fiddler Fisher]

yes, that could be, but if it isn't a matter of QB being a soletaken or d'ivers, then the 1 body 12 souls option is the most reasonable. and i believe that if that is the case, it wouldn't be a matter of 'switching' souls, but more of containing them. as ever soul occupying QB's body are high mages and would want control. that said i still don't believe that is the case.

To me a more likely solution is still more of a 'shape-shifting' idea. there was a lot of mention of QB 'playing' gods, but none of warship. Could he have been the Destraint/MS/SA of a cult like Hood's? (fighting the god at every turn). And maybe received powers from that. or maybe even just been able to use his other souls to resurrect himself. (is there any mention of QB losing warrens at any point?). If QB is part of a cult, i would bet it would be Shadow (and ST/Cots). Something to support that would come from NoK (spoiler doesn't reveal much plot btw)

Spoiler

early on it is mentioned that all members of the cult of shadow are assassins and QB has a close companionship with Kalam-- more than any other bridgeburner

[LordofTheFallen]

Quick was a follower of Shadow, but he left the service. It wasn't said that all Shadow followers are assassins, it said that if one were to abandon the cult they would get assassinated. So Quick isn't associated with shadow anymore, though he still uses it and all other warrens at his convenience.

In terms of him "playing gods" that means he's either tricking them or using other means to get what he wants from them. Quick himself said somewhere " No I dont (either kill or worship) gods, but I do beat them at their own game sometimes."

I also don't think he receives powers from gods (Though in HoC he threatens Hood unless to give Talamandas his full powers, which Quick then uses) and I don't think he uses his occupying souls to resurect himself simply because he hasn't ever died, and thus has no need of them.