[worry]

I've been thinking...if Icarium is a walking talking wormhole into Chaos, and he's taken on a K'rul-like position as bearer of Warrens, does that mean the new Warrens bypass the Eleint entirely? Is that why they are so powerful in comparison to the older ones? Is that one of the reasons the Eleint are so hellbent on getting into the mortal world? W/ Icarium out of commission for the entire book, it's never really addressed, but maybe that's the difference?

[Aptorian]

Was Tiam and the dragon flight summoned by the release of the O-dragon or were they already on their way before that?

[worry]

I think they had to be before that...weren't they part of the evil alliance?

[Aptorian]

I don't think that the dragons was part of any alliance. They were more like a wildcard that was suddenly played that made everything pretty precarious.

Hell I don't even think there was any evil alliances per say, merely powers and ascendants moving to oppose the choices and plays they expected their rivals to play.

The Errant, Knuckles and Killy seemed to be playing their own game and the rest of the powers were waiting to see where their gamble would take things.

This post has been edited by Maybe Apt: 24 January 2014 - 09:08 PM

[worry]

There's definitely an alliance between the FA, KCNR, TL, and Togg and Fanderay and I'm almost positive that the Eleint are in on it too, and someone explicitly states it. I could be wrong and I don't have any quotes to back it up unfortunately. Obviously the TL have a slain dragon so I'm not saying it was a particularly trustworthy alliance or well-coordinated beyond timing.

Actually nm, I found a quote (internal monologue of Brother Equity): "But, Sister Revenance, then I look into your ancient eyes, and I see how the hunger of our allies has infected you. The Tiste Liosan, the Eleint, the Lord and Lady of the Beast Hold -- but all they desire is chaos, anarchy, destruction, the end of the Age of Gods and the Age of Humans..."

[Aptorian]

Hmm. Now that you mention it I do recall some of that. I was thinking about Treach moving Gruntle to the caves as being Togg and Fancy but that is obviously wrong.

[worry]

For the record, I'm not necessarily saying that anything in the DoD/TCG text implies this is the case. It's just conjecture on the ever mysterious new warrens and what's possible.

[HoosierDaddy]

The efficacy of Icarium's warrens might be due to the fact that Kolanse as a whole was behind the times as warrens were concerned. Thus, Icarium's warrens might have been souped up versions of what should have been there naturally.

As to the eleint being part of the Alliance: Nah'ruk and Liosan were murdering them to become soletaken and/or make gates

[Abyss]

I took it that the Eleint in question were the TL sole taken, but i suppose it could have been the ones stuck in SD. Tho I don't see how.

[HoosierDaddy]

Abyss, on 26 January 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

I took it that the Eleint in question were the TL sole taken, but i suppose it could have been the ones stuck in SD. Tho I don't see how.

They'd still be classified as TL if that were the case, yeah? Nobody considers Rake, Korlat, Orfantal, etc. Eleint. They are TA.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Isn't the fact Icarium masters time an analogy for what Odin would be to K'ruls Greek titan Kronos? I mean K'rul is all encompassing whilst Icarium is simply adept at funneling power around. Odin never claimed he owned time, he merely mastered it.

In other words I think Icariums warrens are old warrens he has free access to. When released simultaneously or rather channelled retroactively you receive raw chaos at the end.

Might be a crazy theory as I have nothing solid to back that assumption up though. I just took it to be that sort of a relationship.

The Elient wanted power, I always assumed their stake in the alliance was a shot at the one thing accessing that power in its entirety, Icarium. I think that was why he was an FA trump card. again more just a theory than anything grounded in fact.

[Avernite]

What I assumed is that the Eleint were just that - the Eleint that formed Tiam. After all, they got free of Starvald Demelain, a plus in any case (and, as far as I could tell, they were still free at the end of TCG, which is bound to mess with everything afterwards).

In fact, I'd almost think the freeing of Korabas was an annoyance to them, as it 'forced' the Eleint to join together into Tiam, rather than going off doing their own thing with their freedom. Their alliance with the FA was probably more a case of 'if we want to be truly free we must make sure noone can lock us in again or hunt us down', as the FA plot occupied such badasses as Quick Ben, Draconus (well, sort of), Shadowthrone, Hood, Tool, the KCCM, the KCNR, Karsa, Fener, ... who could almost all have killed or trapped many Eleint.

[D'rek]

worry, on 24 January 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

There's definitely an alliance between the FA, KCNR, TL, and Togg and Fanderay and I'm almost positive that the Eleint are in on it too, and someone explicitly states it. I could be wrong and I don't have any quotes to back it up unfortunately. Obviously the TL have a slain dragon so I'm not saying it was a particularly trustworthy alliance or well-coordinated beyond timing.

Actually nm, I found a quote (internal monologue of Brother Equity): "But, Sister Revenance, then I look into your ancient eyes, and I see how the hunger of our allies has infected you. The Tiste Liosan, the Eleint, the Lord and Lady of the Beast Hold -- but all they desire is chaos, anarchy, destruction, the end of the Age of Gods and the Age of Humans..."

The quotes you're thinking of come, I think, from the Errant talking to Sechul and also one mention from Kadagar Fant. It's spread across a few different mentions, though, and I think the amount of formality to the alliance varies a lot. There's a very clear partnership established between the FA and Killy/Sechul, as well as between the FA and Liosan. I don't recall anyone mentioning actually communicating with the KCNR, only that the Errant nudged the KCNR into the Bonehunters' way on their way to Ampelas Rooted. Similarly, there's a mention from either the Errant or Kadagar of working in cohesion with the Eleint coming through the gate from Starvald Demelain, but I think it could equally be taken as meaning an actual alliance as simply taking advantage of the inevitable Eleint presence resulting from releasing the Otataral Dragon. I tend to think it would be more the latter - if the Errant and co. had negotiated a formal alliance with the Eleint, they could've just broken down the SD gate themselves, but instead they released the Otataral Dragon in order to use both her and the Eleint's natural response for their own ends.

Togg and Fanderay, I'm not sure about. My gut says there was no talk of them being part of it, and they were just on their own side trying to turn things their way

[gandrin]

On the other hand, there is clearly an alliance forged in response to the "evil" alliance. This is quoted from MTS from another forum topic: The quote is from TCG



Very well, I am not indifferent to your...needs. This possibility only gained life when two usurpers reawakened the remnants of Kurald Emurlahn – the Realm of Shadow – and then set out to travel the warrens, and indeed the Holds. Seeking knowledge. Seeking the truth of things. What they eventually discovered did not please them. And in the boldness of their...youth, they decided that something must be done.'
'Two new gods,' Shurq Elalle murmured. 'They came to you?'
'Not at first. Instead, they sought out loyal allies among the mortals they had once commanded. Well, perhaps 'mortals' is not quite accurate in some instances. No matter. Let us call it a wondrous conflagration of circumstance and character, a kind of audacity which made anything possible. Before long, they found the need to gather additional allies. Shall I list them for you?'
'Why not?'
'The Son of Darkness, who understood the true burden of a surrendered future, the fatality of empty faith. The Warlord of the Sleeping Goddess, who would defy the eternal patience of the earth itself, and Stonewielder, the One who stood facing Caladan Brood, ensuring the world's balance. These two are destined to walk disparate paths, but what they seek is much the same. The Queen of Dreams, whose pool had grown still as death itself. The Lord of Tragedy – and, well, a host of others, all drawn into the fold.'

Son of Darkness - Anomander Rake
Warlord of the Sleeping Goddess - Caladan Brood
Stonewielder - Greymane
Queen of Dreams - T'riss
Lord of Tragedy - Dassembrae

You could probably add Hood, D'rek, K'rul, Mael and Edgewalker to that list. Perhaps Fener, Trake and the Wolves as well.


Though the Wolves switched sides.

[worry]

You guys are totally nutty. Not that I mind! But the Eleint motivation line was a throwaway that popped into my head last minute. I was way more focused on Icarium's direct channel into Chaos whereas K'rul has to go through the Eleint to shape his paths, and what that might mean for the new warrens. HD's notion is an interesting alt, but I think the super warrens are already in effect while Sinn and Grub are still in Lether, at the dead Azath house...so basically since Icarium activated his (admittedly imperfect) machine in RG.