[D'rek]

Crazy theory which I haven't bothered to double-check if it's even feasible: After Koryk sees TCG get stabbed and Fiddler is saying "He'll figure it out, blah blah"... what if nobody but Koryk saw TCG get stabbed, and Fiddler is talking under the assumption Koryk is just confused about a completely healthy CG leaving?

[Sinisdar Toste]

i'm certain that that is not what happened. remember the flash of jade light shooting into the sky immediately after cotillion kills kaminsod? i'm betting that was his soul joining his worshippers in their interstellar statues.

i think i'm beginning to understand why SE said that TtH is the cypher for the series, cuz it's looking like this finale is gonna require an abyss-like rundown of why everything happened the way it did. i'll try my hand at it, but i'm sure i'll miss some things.

*ahem*

1) the crippled gods heart had to be snatched out from under the FA. the final scene at the spire with gesler, hood and gu'rull answers this. gu'rull brings it out to the Bonehunters on Elan plain

2) as much as possible of kaminsod needs to be returned to him if he is to stop being a bitter angry cripple, so crone and her brood return from whence they came.

3) unfortunately, the chains on kaminsod were put in place by a multitude of gods and ascendants and can't really be broken, so korabas needs to be summoned to the barrow in order to have something to transfer them to. see the mael, k'rul, heboric, kaminsod scene. this also has the nice effect of heading off the manifestation of t'iam.

4) but, if korabas' influence is allowed to completely saturate the barrow everybody on it will die, including kaminsod, thus ensuring that the jade giants will hit Wu, ending it all. so d'rek has been following banaschar, chewing through the gut of the world to curl up around the barrow and protect the life on it from korabas' touch. i assume that as another force of decay and entropy, d'rek would be better able to counteract korabas than anyone else

5) even though kaminsod's chains are gone, he is still a lodestone to his worshippers and cannot leave Wu as a corporeal entity, so cotillion has to give him the 'ol stabby-stabby, allowing his soul to join the countless other souls inside their soul-ships. koryk, the poor guy (honestly, i was so angry at SE for the what he done to koryk in DoD and tCG), was so gut wrenched when it happened because he saw in kaminsods look something no one had ever looked upon him with before.

[Blacksox]

I am not so sure Sandalath was raped.

My crazy theory is that Draconus shagged Sandalath. I believe Draconus either slept with Sandalath to get back at MD for something or simply just cheated on MD with her.That would possibly explain some of the rift between MD and the Tiste Andii as well as Draconus voicing apologies to MD.

[Ceda Cicero]

This bit with Cotillion and the stabbing is going to do my head in. I think there's enough evidence to suggest that SE meant for it to be vague, the outcome unclear. And that... is going... to drive me mad.

If there's any room to interpret that Cots stabbed the Crippled God to kill him rather than ascend him, that has ALL kinds of implications that I will never fully be able to embrace or understand. Not least of which is the near total invalidation of Tavore's sweat and blood and tons of Bonehunter deaths.

[D'rek]

Maybe the best approach here is to look at what we know of the situation after the dust has settled and figure out what would have more likely resulted in the circumstances.

One bit of info: ST mentions how pretty much all the gods hate him and Cot, now. This isn't surprising considering we saw how they wanted to use tCG and ST&C were part of getting rid of tCG (one way or another).

So, what else do we know about the after-party?

[Held]

Ok this is my first post, but I am on my second read of tcg. As to whether it was planned that Cots release tcg or was meant to kill him, I believe that it was planned to release him as Mael and Krul speak to this in their conversation with him.
"'I am Krul the Maker of Warrens. Now it is time for you to leave to return to your home. The Crippled God considered this and then said,'I am flesh and bone. Made in the guise of a human. Where my children call down to me, I cannot go. Would you have me summon them down?' 'No, that would mean our deaths, all of us. 'Yes, it would,' 'There will be a way', Krul said. 'It begins with Heboric but ends with another.'"

This conversation makes me believe that if Mael and Krul knew that there was a way to release tcg and that it would take 'another' to do it then there was foresight and planning. It also means that there was colaberation between mael, Krul, and Cots.

[Ceda Cicero]

Held, on 08 March 2011 - 09:52 AM, said:

Ok this is my first post, but I am on my second read of tcg. As to whether it was planned that Cots release tcg or was meant to kill him, I believe that it was planned to release him as Mael and Krul speak to this in their conversation with him.
"'I am Krul the Maker of Warrens. Now it is time for you to leave to return to your home. The Crippled God considered this and then said,'I am flesh and bone. Made in the guise of a human. Where my children call down to me, I cannot go. Would you have me summon them down?' 'No, that would mean our deaths, all of us. 'Yes, it would,' 'There will be a way', Krul said. 'It begins with Heboric but ends with another.'"

This conversation makes me believe that if Mael and Krul knew that there was a way to release tcg and that it would take 'another' to do it then there was foresight and planning. It also means that there was colaberation between mael, Krul, and Cots.

Good catch, great first post too. Welcome.

[Obdigore]

So...

1) Sand was a hostage between competing factions. She was there during the civil war after mommy-D turned away. Although I like the Draconus theory, it does not fit as she would be both soletaken and much more powerful then randomly dying to a K'chain because she doesn't know how to use a sword. But he is the only one who is vital to the story that would fit. Let us list the others and points against:

A) Rake - well unless he is a fan of delayed suicide as punishment, it probably wasn't him.
Silchas - Put in a hole by Scabby as a power grab. Probably wasn't him.
C) Scabby - Would have been hunted down and killed by Rake instead of letting the others do it.
D) Spinnock - I would think that Rake would have put him in the sword instead of treating him as a trusted friend and agent.
E) Tulas - Seemed to Indicate that Rake put him down because he felt he had to for the safety of his people. Not for his abuse of a hostage.

2) It is my opinion that the Otat dragon was needed to crush the chains binding tCG. They fashioned a body and moved him there to move the magical chains with him. Once the chains were destroyed, Heboric reached up with his monumental hands and chained Otat again, but Otat managed to free a god and save the world. Seems to be what she wanted. She seemed like a little kid that just wanted to help.

I no longer understand how someone can make a kid wit T'iam. If T'iam is a giant multi-headed dragon of voltronesque death, how does one produce a kid with her?

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 08 March 2011 - 03:17 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

Obdigore, on 08 March 2011 - 03:16 PM, said:

2) It is my opinion that the Otat dragon was needed to crush the chains binding tCG. They fashioned a body and moved him there to move the magical chains with him. Once the chains were destroyed, Heboric reached up with his monumental hands and chained Otat again, but Otat managed to free a god and save the world. Seems to be what she wanted. She seemed like a little kid that just wanted to help.

There it is. i knew i was forgetting something. Korabas dissolves the crippled gods chains, then heborics hands trap korabas. pink ribbons tied in a bow

[tiam]

Sinisdar Toste, on 07 March 2011 - 05:09 AM, said:

i'm certain that that is not what happened. remember the flash of jade light shooting into the sky immediately after cotillion kills kaminsod? i'm betting that was his soul joining his worshippers in their interstellar statues.

i think i'm beginning to understand why SE said that TtH is the cypher for the series, cuz it's looking like this finale is gonna require an abyss-like rundown of why everything happened the way it did. i'll try my hand at it, but i'm sure i'll miss some things.

*ahem*

1) the crippled gods heart had to be snatched out from under the FA. the final scene at the spire with gesler, hood and gu'rull answers this. gu'rull brings it out to the Bonehunters on Elan plain

2) as much as possible of kaminsod needs to be returned to him if he is to stop being a bitter angry cripple, so crone and her brood return from whence they came.

3) unfortunately, the chains on kaminsod were put in place by a multitude of gods and ascendants and can't really be broken, so korabas needs to be summoned to the barrow in order to have something to transfer them to. see the mael, k'rul, heboric, kaminsod scene. this also has the nice effect of heading off the manifestation of t'iam.

4) but, if korabas' influence is allowed to completely saturate the barrow everybody on it will die, including kaminsod, thus ensuring that the jade giants will hit Wu, ending it all. so d'rek has been following banaschar, chewing through the gut of the world to curl up around the barrow and protect the life on it from korabas' touch. i assume that as another force of decay and entropy, d'rek would be better able to counteract korabas than anyone else

5) even though kaminsod's chains are gone, he is still a lodestone to his worshippers and cannot leave Wu as a corporeal entity, so cotillion has to give him the 'ol stabby-stabby, allowing his soul to join the countless other souls inside their soul-ships. koryk, the poor guy (honestly, i was so angry at SE for the what he done to koryk in DoD and tCG), was so gut wrenched when it happened because he saw in kaminsods look something no one had ever looked upon him with before.

You had me believing this one was one side of the arguement and mine was (possibly) the other Until...

Held, on 08 March 2011 - 09:52 AM, said:

Ok this is my first post, but I am on my second read of tcg. As to whether it was planned that Cots release tcg or was meant to kill him, I believe that it was planned to release him as Mael and Krul speak to this in their conversation with him.
"'I am Krul the Maker of Warrens. Now it is time for you to leave to return to your home. The Crippled God considered this and then said,'I am flesh and bone. Made in the guise of a human. Where my children call down to me, I cannot go. Would you have me summon them down?' 'No, that would mean our deaths, all of us. 'Yes, it would,' 'There will be a way', Krul said. 'It begins with Heboric but ends with another.'"

This conversation makes me believe that if Mael and Krul knew that there was a way to release tcg and that it would take 'another' to do it then there was foresight and planning. It also means that there was colaberation between mael, Krul, and Cots.

...THis quote fu nails my theory. Its still a bit ambigious as to the relevance of the Adjunct being a Talon but I accept that this puts my theory down more or less, though the shady and surprising nature of still feels odd like were all missing something.

Maybe Held (already on a second reread what a hero) will have some more quote fu for us.

Seen as im never happy without a crazy theory, does anyone else remember a Storm Rider in the background when Krul and Mael are walking with Kaminsod? Just the one I think in the distance but what relevance does this have for the whole

SWspoiler

Spoiler

The Lady is a fragment of the CG who took on a different personality (most popuar theory last time I looked which has ben a while) that was killed by the Storm Riders, who it seemed had the unique ability to kill chunks of TCG

[Lister of Smeg]

I think Tavore revealing she is a talon and her stating that she's a child of the Emperor shows she has been in cahoots with ST and Cotillion this whole time. The three of them together plotted out just about everything that happens in the series, with the help of their allies - Hood, Rake, etc.

I've been thinking about her motives a lot since I finished the book and I have just about convinced myself that she was working with/for ST from the start. Her statements to the contrary in DoD in particular may have been a bit of misdirection, though the only reason I can think of for her doing that is so that her soldiers thought they were on their own so they wouldn't look to a god to pull them out at the last second. That way they had to fight to their last breath as there was no retreat.

[tiam]

Interesting point there.

Can anyone think of the clear indication of betrayal that was so prominent in DoD? At any point I mean?

Also, and I admit I may have dreamt this, but didnt nefarius Bredd turn up at the end to help Fiddler then vanish at a later date.

[D'rek]

tiam, on 08 March 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

Interesting point there.

Can anyone think of the clear indication of betrayal that was so prominent in DoD? At any point I mean?

Well, Rath'Thurvian's dire warning was simply that "she will betray us" and could have referred to any female character in any context. Krughava betraying the wolves and their cause easily fits the bill, but plenty of other things could match it too, depending on what Rath'Thurvian thought was going to happen in the future (ie, he sees freeing tCG as a betrayal by Tavore).

[Migol]

D, on 09 March 2011 - 01:10 AM, said:

tiam, on 08 March 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

Interesting point there.

Can anyone think of the clear indication of betrayal that was so prominent in DoD? At any point I mean?

Well, Rath'Thurvian's dire warning was simply that "she will betray us" and could have referred to any female character in any context. Krughava betraying the wolves and their cause easily fits the bill, but plenty of other things could match it too, depending on what Rath'Thurvian thought was going to happen in the future (ie, he sees freeing tCG as a betrayal by Tavore).

I was pretty sure that his warning was about Setoc or possibly the female wolf God, as that would be the betrayal that totally destroyed the perish.

[Obdigore]

Migol, on 09 March 2011 - 05:44 AM, said:

D, on 09 March 2011 - 01:10 AM, said:

tiam, on 08 March 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

Interesting point there.

Can anyone think of the clear indication of betrayal that was so prominent in DoD? At any point I mean?

Well, Rath'Thurvian's dire warning was simply that "she will betray us" and could have referred to any female character in any context. Krughava betraying the wolves and their cause easily fits the bill, but plenty of other things could match it too, depending on what Rath'Thurvian thought was going to happen in the future (ie, he sees freeing tCG as a betrayal by Tavore).

I was pretty sure that his warning was about Setoc or possibly the female wolf God, as that would be the betrayal that totally destroyed the perish.

Wow you posted this as I was reading the thread and this is what I have started thinking as well. Creepy but I agree.

Now, back to Sand - I think that it could have been Draconus, but I also think that perhaps it wasn't rape. Perhaps draconus started seducing any and all Andii women (or men) he could find, and they didn't turn him down, which is why MommyD ran away? Anyone remember that her priests loved to screw when she was turned away but when she came back they hadn't, according to Nimmy?

If the whole turning away thing is based on sexual congress, then the rift between Drac and MommyD could be based on the same thing?

Anyone know if Orfantal was older than Korlat? I seem to think he was but when she was talking about how Sand just told her (korlat) to defend Orfy... the younger, wanted child? Do we know who Orf's father was and I missed it?

PS my previous post was retarded because I was confusing Sand and Korlat and their power/strength.

So Korlat survives where Orfy does not... because she is more powerful? I think it has to be Draconus.

D'rek - do your lineage charts still have Tiam as the mother to numerous dragons? If so... how could the insane voltrondragonofdoomforotataral get impregnated?

[Dutch]

tiam, on 08 March 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

Also, and I admit I may have dreamt this, but didnt nefarius Bredd turn up at the end to help Fiddler then vanish at a later date.

Yeah, laughed my socks off when this happened, Fiddler looking at a small marine rushing past him to fill the gap who said he would take care of it and Fid asking then who the hell he was and the marine answering: Well, I'm Nefarius Bred sir.

It happened after Hedge throwing that dud cusser which cracked open on the helm of that soldier.

[tiam]

D, on 09 March 2011 - 01:10 AM, said:

tiam, on 08 March 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

Interesting point there.

Can anyone think of the clear indication of betrayal that was so prominent in DoD? At any point I mean?

Well, Rath'Thurvian's dire warning was simply that "she will betray us" and could have referred to any female character in any context. Krughava betraying the wolves and their cause easily fits the bill, but plenty of other things could match it too, depending on what Rath'Thurvian thought was going to happen in the future (ie, he sees freeing tCG as a betrayal by Tavore).

Migol, on 09 March 2011 - 05:44 AM, said:

D, on 09 March 2011 - 01:10 AM, said:

tiam, on 08 March 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

Interesting point there.

Can anyone think of the clear indication of betrayal that was so prominent in DoD? At any point I mean?

Well, Rath'Thurvian's dire warning was simply that "she will betray us" and could have referred to any female character in any context. Krughava betraying the wolves and their cause easily fits the bill, but plenty of other things could match it too, depending on what Rath'Thurvian thought was going to happen in the future (ie, he sees freeing tCG as a betrayal by Tavore).

I was pretty sure that his warning was about Setoc or possibly the female wolf God, as that would be the betrayal that totally destroyed the perish.

is there any indication I mean that this was THE betrayal. It was a fairly prominent theme and I understand why Erikson might have left it ambigious. I for some reason interpreted it as humans betraying the gods of war, which I admit makes little sense given that 'she' will betray us.

Obdigore, on 09 March 2011 - 05:55 AM, said:

Migol, on 09 March 2011 - 05:44 AM, said:

D, on 09 March 2011 - 01:10 AM, said:

tiam, on 08 March 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

Interesting point there.

Can anyone think of the clear indication of betrayal that was so prominent in DoD? At any point I mean?

Well, Rath'Thurvian's dire warning was simply that "she will betray us" and could have referred to any female character in any context. Krughava betraying the wolves and their cause easily fits the bill, but plenty of other things could match it too, depending on what Rath'Thurvian thought was going to happen in the future (ie, he sees freeing tCG as a betrayal by Tavore).

I was pretty sure that his warning was about Setoc or possibly the female wolf God, as that would be the betrayal that totally destroyed the perish.

Wow you posted this as I was reading the thread and this is what I have started thinking as well. Creepy but I agree.

Now, back to Sand - I think that it could have been Draconus, but I also think that perhaps it wasn't rape. Perhaps draconus started seducing any and all Andii women (or men) he could find, and they didn't turn him down, which is why MommyD ran away? Anyone remember that her priests loved to screw when she was turned away but when she came back they hadn't, according to Nimmy?

If the whole turning away thing is based on sexual congress, then the rift between Drac and MommyD could be based on the same thing?

Anyone know if Orfantal was older than Korlat? I seem to think he was but when she was talking about how Sand just told her (korlat) to defend Orfy... the younger, wanted child? Do we know who Orf's father was and I missed it?

PS my previous post was retarded because I was confusing Sand and Korlat and their power/strength.

So Korlat survives where Orfy does not... because she is more powerful? I think it has to be Draconus.

D'rek - do your lineage charts still have Tiam as the mother to numerous dragons? If so... how could the insane voltrondragonofdoomforotataral get impregnated?

Orfantal wasnt less powerfulk than Korlat I would say. If Korlat picked up Kallor then Im certain she would have been dropped by a blade to the throat. I wouldnt say its why one survived. Given that neither of them are Ancients (a nice new concept to throw into the last book) id say there even.

As for it not being rape why would Rake be bothered if it wasnt? I understand the arguement of 'betraying MD with other Andii' but tbh I think rape seems the most likely option. Surely Korlat would be alot more powerful having an EG as a father. I still think its Shorn and thats why Rake killed him.

MD turned away because Anomander was the first (of the Tiste peoples) to embrace Tiams blood to stop the civil wars in Kharkanas or between the Tiste peoples in general, atleast thats the vague picture we get from the Kharkanas flashbacks in TTH. Im sure the trilogy will prove me wrong.

Though saying that she would be more powerful having an EG as a father, there was an interesting point about EG in this one. When that FA got his/her head bitten off by Hood (greatest scene ever btw) they mentioned that Hood could have become an EG if hed not chosen to lead the army. I think we have to discard the 'these are EG, these are not despite being of the relative same age and power' theory. EG dont have to be 'elemental' forces, like Mael, though it could be comfortably argued he could have become the 'elemental' of death, in the same way darkness is an element as is destruction (in the case of Kily).

EDIT- I also think that Gothos and Hood are as powerful as Raest and it was simply Raests tyrannical nature that made him abominable to both races.

Dutch, on 09 March 2011 - 10:26 AM, said:

tiam, on 08 March 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

Also, and I admit I may have dreamt this, but didnt nefarius Bredd turn up at the end to help Fiddler then vanish at a later date.

Yeah, laughed my socks off when this happened, Fiddler looking at a small marine rushing past him to fill the gap who said he would take care of it and Fid asking then who the hell he was and the marine answering: Well, I'm Nefarius Bred sir.

It happened after Hedge throwing that dud cusser which cracked open on the helm of that soldier.

Thank you it was like 5 in the morning or something like that when I read that part. Where did he go? Do we hear from him again? I dont think we do unless he was one of the fallen at the barrow?

This post has been edited by tiam: 09 March 2011 - 01:39 PM

[Kanubis]

A small one from me... do we know if Masan Gilani survived?

[chaosek]

Though I have no quotes to even suggest this theory, it would explain a lot if the Queen of Dreams was in on the plans of ST, Cots and Tavore. Instructions could be given through dreams and nobody would notice.

[Obdigore]

Kanubis, on 09 March 2011 - 01:59 PM, said:

A small one from me... do we know if Masan Gilani survived?

I believe that right before they started laughing, right before QB and Kalam showed up, Fiddler was listing who was left, and I believe it was most of his squad, hellian and urb, masan, and a couple others spread out from other squads.

@ Tiam - Nefarious Bredd was either Crump or the Bole Bro, from the descriptions.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 09 March 2011 - 05:59 PM