I figured now that some of us already have TCG I'm guessing there's some people that have questions concerning something in the book, some reference they just can't place, something they don't understand etc. Maybe others can help there. As I marked the topic itself "Spoilers" I will not hide spoilers, as that's what this thread is all about in the first place.
WARNING: You should probably have finished the book before posting/reading here as things from all over the book will be discussed, including the ending.
To start it off - When Korlat offers herself as the Sister of Night to Yan Tovis she insists that "her blood is not pure". Withal realizes her meaning and it breaks his heart. Unfortunately I don't really get the (hidden?) meaning. What does she mean by that? Was she possibly a child of rape, also the reason why Sandalath seems not to have cared for her? How would the blood not be pure Andii then, possibly her father is Edur or Liosan? Or did she mean something else entirely?
Also weird that just a few sentences later Korlat is refered to as "The Sister of Cold Nights". I guess this must be an error, right? Sister of Cold Nights was the original/one name used by the Elder Goddess who cursed Kallor together with K'rul and Draconus. Why would Korlat be called that all of a sudden?
This post has been edited by Panador: 17 February 2011 - 06:00 PM
We were never what people could be. We were only what we were.
Remember Us.
I know and that's what I thougth but Yan Tovis started saying "The blood of the Eleint--" yet Korlat still insisted "My blood is not pure" so I thought she refered to something else. If her being Soletaken was this hidden meaning I still don't really understand Withal's reaction, his thinking that Korlat would. "have not plane in the palace of Queen Sandalath Drukorlat." Orfantal after all was Soletaken as well and she desperately wanted him and I guess Korlat and Orfantal both became Soletaken at the same time so Korlat being Soletaken couldn't be the reason she was not wanted by Sandalath.
This post has been edited by Panador: 14 February 2011 - 05:03 PM
We were never what people could be. We were only what we were.
Remember Us.
If you've read the whole book you should be able to work not only what she means but who her father is... ^^
Sister of Cold Nights is a title and the previous Sister of Cold Nights is dead - go figure..
"He was not a modest man. Contemplating suicide, he summoned a dragon". (Gothos' Folly)- Gothos
Hm k, not through the book yet, hope it'll be clear to by then. I get that "Sister of Night" was a title, thought "Sister of Cold Nights" was one (among many) name of this Elder Goddess. She isn't really dead though, is she? She lives on in Silverfox, in some way.
Well, gotta finish the book.
We were never what people could be. We were only what we were.
Remember Us.
Fair enough - when you've finished it, perhaps we can continue this discussion.. and by then a few other members will have their copies and the discussion will commence in earnest
"He was not a modest man. Contemplating suicide, he summoned a dragon". (Gothos' Folly)- Gothos
Just finished it and I fear I still don't know who her father is. She mentioned Spinnock Durav not minding her "low birth", that's about the only thing I saw. From the way Sandalath talked about Blind Gallan he could be her father for all I know, although I don't believe that, but how would that make her blood "not pure". I looked for any mention or even hint of a father, some non-Andii in her or her mother's life before Whiskeyjack, and some link to the "Sister of Cold Nights" title, but didn't notice either.
Also, try as I might I can't remember/think of what "demon" Fiddler refered to at the end. A "demon" in the bay of Malaz Harbour who Fiddler talked to in the past, I can't remember any mention of a creature in the harbour. Only a stranded Stormrider was mentioned once I think but beyond that... *shrug*.
HUGE SPOILER - don't read if you haven't read the book yet.
And,
Spoiler
why did Cotillion - have to - stab the Crippled God? I guess it was the only way to get him back to his world, free him from his broken flesh?
Guess most of those are things that make sense when reading the whole series again but I probably won't do that for a couple years now.
We were never what people could be. We were only what we were.
Remember Us.
A "demon" in the bay of Malaz Harbour - this I think was referenced in one of the books, not sure which one.. .admittedly it didnt mention fidller speaking to it but there was a reference somewhere... that I thought was a throw away comment back then.... *sigh* time to spead read..........
Draconus was the first that came to mind, doesn't really add up though imo, the Consort of Mother Dark doing it with one of the hostages. And Korlat would then be equal to Spite and Envy (who's their mother anyway? Think it was mentioned, not like I can remember though), a Goddess, "low birth" doesn't really make sense then.
For all intents and purposes she seems to be and look like any other Tiste Andii, so simply by skin color her father might have been an Edur. Tulas Shorn is the only one who comes to mind there, being the only prominent Edur in TCG, I don't recall even a hint of a link being mentioned between Tulas, Sandalath, Korlat.
We were never what people could be. We were only what we were.
Remember Us.
well if you look at it from an Andi point of view.... Draconus is not Andi and therefore wouldn't be pure Andi blood.... or else it could be Edgewalker....
well if you look at it from an Andi point of view.... Draconus is not Andi and therefore wouldn't be pure Andi blood.... or else it could be Edgewalker....
With the risk of sounding like utter fool
Shouldn't people like Nimander and Yan Tovis ought be even more impure. Nimander's mum is Lady Envy, a Draconus/Sheltata Lore mix. Yan Tovis blood ought to be even more "polluted" as she has countless of generations of human blood in her veins. Yet in DoD both Twilight and Yedan has genetic/blood memories and skills.
" Ah, I despair, or I would if I cared enough. No, instead, I will make some ashcakes. Which I will not share."
Don't know if using spoilers is required, but since the're big ones I'll do it anyway. So don't read if you haven't read the book, it spoils all!!
Again, don't read unless you know the outcome, it's all here. Don't even try it if your almost done, it's spoiled to the final letter.
Final warning, eye bleeding spoilers for all storylines:
Spoiler
Ofc the biggest question left is, is the CG dead or released? Also he could not be killed by being torn apart, but two knives to the back do it. I think he's released as his followers seem to alter their course (but in the epilogue it sounds like the Jade slashes will always be there) and it's the Malazan tales of the Fallen which could not have existed if he actually died. Some other thing that bothered me, the Ravens come back to give his flesh back but the parts from Korel don't seem needed. A nice link between Stonewielder and tCG would have been nice, because now one of the very few and minor references is the mention of the whorl. On a whole don't really liked the seemingly contradiction between the Liosan in SW (L'Oric etc.) and the Liosan attacking Karankas).
All in all I actually didn't like this book as much as the previous ones. My most annoying moment being Hetan. I mean come on how lame is that. She apparantly gets the live by the blood of Fener as do the Imass and Hood but not all those dead soldiers who got the same blood splattered on them. Same goes for the undead Jaghut. Apparently SE got some problems with kill your darlings in the last book (the 'all' survive). Also the book wasn't as consistend as I would have liked. Ruin talks to Shorn about the husk blade and what will happen if he veers, but by then he already has while in possesion of the sword while leaving Ryuad. QB calls Oratal the product of magic, the CG a product of his infection. The Oratal dragon gets pulled in by the oratal sword, but in doing so totally ignores a whole island of the stuff (even if mined empty there should be more left than one sword). Paran can move whole armies through gates even suprising the Assail in the strongest citadel, but is too late in riding to his sisters aid. And all in all I counted only 10 pures (3 up north that 'Paran' kills, three in the final final battle, the one hood kills, the one Brys kills, Reverence on top of the spire and Calm). And finally (for now) the one who kills Calm is Karsa, judging by the sword, but 'he doesn't like fighting' and Ubala is the one with Icarium when he wakes up. But he has a mace.
Not to be to negative, I did like the book and it has a lot of great scenes and some closure but I feel it was rushed. Loved that SE had this great writing tempo and it would have been hard to wait longer, but it might have done the book some good. And maybe I'm too harsh, found the MTotF books mostly worth an 8 or 9 and this one still a 7.
As to who the father of Korlat is I found no clue, but it was spectacular to find out that one of QB's souls is the son of MD and Draconus. Although that scene didn't seem to have any point in the rest of the story. But reading it front to cover in 5 days could make me miss something.
Don't know if using spoilers is required, but since the're big ones I'll do it anyway. So don't read if you haven't read the book, it spoils all!!
Again, don't read unless you know the outcome, it's all here. Don't even try it if your almost done, it's spoiled to the final letter.
Final warning, eye bleeding spoilers for all storylines:
Spoiler
As to who the father of Korlat is I found no clue, but it was spectacular to find out that one of QB's souls is the son of MD and Draconus. Although that scene didn't seem to have any point in the rest of the story. But reading it front to cover in 5 days could make me miss something.
So
Spoiler
QB isn't Grizzin Farl as speculated?
" Ah, I despair, or I would if I cared enough. No, instead, I will make some ashcakes. Which I will not share."
Don't know if using spoilers is required, but since the're big ones I'll do it anyway. So don't read if you haven't read the book, it spoils all!!
Again, don't read unless you know the outcome, it's all here. Don't even try it if your almost done, it's spoiled to the final letter.
Final warning, eye bleeding spoilers for all storylines:
Spoiler
As to who the father of Korlat is I found no clue, but it was spectacular to find out that one of QB's souls is the son of MD and Draconus. Although that scene didn't seem to have any point in the rest of the story. But reading it front to cover in 5 days could make me miss something.
So
Spoiler
QB isn't Grizzin Farl as speculated?
Spoiler
no, my guess would be that Grizzin Farl is the Forkul Assail god
Don't know if using spoilers is required, but since the're big ones I'll do it anyway. So don't read if you haven't read the book, it spoils all!!
Again, don't read unless you know the outcome, it's all here. Don't even try it if your almost done, it's spoiled to the final letter.
Final warning, eye bleeding spoilers for all storylines:
Spoiler
As to who the father of Korlat is I found no clue, but it was spectacular to find out that one of QB's souls is the son of MD and Draconus. Although that scene didn't seem to have any point in the rest of the story. But reading it front to cover in 5 days could make me miss something.
So
Spoiler
QB isn't Grizzin Farl as speculated?
Spoiler
no, my guess would be that Grizzin Farl is the Forkul Assail god
Isn't
Spoiler
Kilmandros the FA's god? So is the son of MD and Draconus someone we've heard about or a new guy? and how did he wind up in QB?
" Ah, I despair, or I would if I cared enough. No, instead, I will make some ashcakes. Which I will not share."
Huge gouge your eyes out spoilers so don't read it if you haven't read the book :-
Spoiler
Firstly when Silchas first showed the sword to Ryadd, neither of them were veered. Secondly when he and Ryadd veered, the sword was sheathed. It only did it's thing when he unsheathed it in his Soletaken form.
Regarding the otataral sword and the summoning of Korabas - Otataral island is thousands of miles from where they were so why would she not feel the summons of the otataral that was nearest to her? It also did this - which we haven't seen it do before :-
The rust-coloured blade seemed to blaze in Banaschar’s eyes – he staggered back a step.
Nearby, Fiddler swore under his breath. “Adjunct – it’s … awake.”
“And,” whispered Banaschar, “it shall summon.”
The CG mentions that he is "mostly whole" - finger ends are missing etc.. so I'm not sure why this is a problem.
I'll not go on as I've had more chance to read it than you, but just saying...
"He was not a modest man. Contemplating suicide, he summoned a dragon". (Gothos' Folly)- Gothos
Don't know if using spoilers is required, but since the're big ones I'll do it anyway. So don't read if you haven't read the book, it spoils all!!
Again, don't read unless you know the outcome, it's all here. Don't even try it if your almost done, it's spoiled to the final letter.
Final warning, eye bleeding spoilers for all storylines:
Spoiler
Ofc the biggest question left is, is the CG dead or released? Also he could not be killed by being torn apart, but two knives to the back do it. I think he's released as his followers seem to alter their course (but in the epilogue it sounds like the Jade slashes will always be there) and it's the Malazan tales of the Fallen which could not have existed if he actually died. Some other thing that bothered me, the Ravens come back to give his flesh back but the parts from Korel don't seem needed. A nice link between Stonewielder and tCG would have been nice, because now one of the very few and minor references is the mention of the whorl. On a whole don't really liked the seemingly contradiction between the Liosan in SW (L'Oric etc.) and the Liosan attacking Karankas).
All in all I actually didn't like this book as much as the previous ones. My most annoying moment being Hetan. I mean come on how lame is that. She apparantly gets the live by the blood of Fener as do the Imass and Hood but not all those dead soldiers who got the same blood splattered on them. Same goes for the undead Jaghut. Apparently SE got some problems with kill your darlings in the last book (the 'all' survive). Also the book wasn't as consistend as I would have liked. Ruin talks to Shorn about the husk blade and what will happen if he veers, but by then he already has while in possesion of the sword while leaving Ryuad. QB calls Oratal the product of magic, the CG a product of his infection. The Oratal dragon gets pulled in by the oratal sword, but in doing so totally ignores a whole island of the stuff (even if mined empty there should be more left than one sword). Paran can move whole armies through gates even suprising the Assail in the strongest citadel, but is too late in riding to his sisters aid. And all in all I counted only 10 pures (3 up north that 'Paran' kills, three in the final final battle, the one hood kills, the one Brys kills, Reverence on top of the spire and Calm). And finally (for now) the one who kills Calm is Karsa, judging by the sword, but 'he doesn't like fighting' and Ubala is the one with Icarium when he wakes up. But he has a mace.
Not to be to negative, I did like the book and it has a lot of great scenes and some closure but I feel it was rushed. Loved that SE had this great writing tempo and it would have been hard to wait longer, but it might have done the book some good. And maybe I'm too harsh, found the MTotF books mostly worth an 8 or 9 and this one still a 7.
As to who the father of Korlat is I found no clue, but it was spectacular to find out that one of QB's souls is the son of MD and Draconus. Although that scene didn't seem to have any point in the rest of the story. But reading it front to cover in 5 days could make me miss something.
Not gonna start with the spoiler-tags, or pretty much every post in this thread would be 90% hidden. Gonna edit my starting post to reflect that this thread should only be read if you've finished the book.
I also tend to agree that Kaminsod was released, not killed, however I wish that had been clarified in some way. They only said that it was necessary, seeing how distressed Koryk was, but didn't specifically say that he was freed through this act. Their whole goal was to free the Crippled God, it would just be extremely weird to kill him in the end. If this had been their purpose from the start it would have been fine but all this talk about his suffering, giving him freedom, empathising with him etc. ... killing him just doesn't make sense. Destroying his body to free him ... much more so. Someone, don't remember who, even said/thought that it seemed the Jade Slashes were already a bit farther away but this couldn't be (given the short time, I think).
Just read this part again and I'm 90% certain now that he was released, because of this line, immediately after Cotillion stabs him: "The green fire ignited, shot spiralling INTO THE SKY - so fast it was gone in moments." Sounds like him going home to me.
As for only his heart and not the rest of the body parts, that was actually adressed once. They pretty much said - it won't pretty, he won't be completely whole, but the heart (and the sacrifice of the Ravens) suffice. Especially given the goal of destroying his body to actually free him, it makes sense that the body doesn't have to be perfectly whole/healed.
Yeah, Hetan coming back was.... too much. I like her and it was horrible what was done to her and I'm glad for Tool and the children to have her back but ... I didn't get the feeling this world worked like that. It's just too much of a happy ending. I didn't think that Hetan came back through Fener's Blood but that Toc brought her back, given his "connection" to the realm of the dead. But yeah, didn't think of that, maybe he just brought her body back, maybe he knew what was about to happen to Fener and that it might work on Hetan, one last nice thing he could do for his friend. I think the Jaghut DID come back to life (Hood did so I assumed the others did as well, didn't need pointing out I thought).
Silchas and Tulas talking about the sword, they pointed out the importance of Silchas "wielding" it, holding it in his hand while veering, opposed to keeping it in its scabard while veering. Apparently that makes a difference.
I'm guessing Otataral Isle is just too far away, if there hadn't been a concentrated source of Otataral (the sword) nearby I guess Khorabas would have flown there sooner or later. I don't recall the CG laying any claim on having created Otataral or whatever. Going by the first theory about the origins of Otataral (not in this book, some of the earlier ones, think it was Heboric's theory) the Jade Giants entry in this world, the "clash" of their... being with the materials, the magic etc. of this world creates Otataral. If this still holds Otataral could be seen as a by-product of the Crippled God's being here, after all the Jade Giants seem to have come here because of him in he first place.
Ganoes and Tavore didn't plan this whole thing, that was said a couple times. Thus he didn't *have* to ride to her aid, he trusted in her to handle her end of things and only when he was done with his stuff did he ride to her help. He was held up by this High Watered Jerk, why defeating him was so important I don't really get myself. I'm not even entirely sure about the Host's goal there. They squated in the Pures' front yard, annoyed the hell out of them and then... fled? They didn't retrieve the Heart of the Crippled God, they didn't secure the site of his Chaining, they didn't have anything to do with Khorabas... was their purpose just to delay the efforts of the Assail for long enough so the rest could do their thing?
Calm is killed by Ublala, just checked again, immediately after she kills Mappo "A sound to her left, and then a voice. 'That's not nice.'" And then something massive slamming into the side of her head (opposed to probably cutting it in half, had it been Karsa's sword). He proceeds to kill her of course. Maybe you mixed it up because of the "to see a Toblakai standing before her." But Ublala also is a Toblakai, not as pure as Karsa but I guess someone who is as old as Calm, who knew the original Toblakai, who was freed by Toblakai, Karsa etc. she would just think Toblakai. Afaik Ublala is rather "pure" for his part of the world. She even thinks "You freed me! No. You're not him. That was long ago. Another place - another time." She mixed him up with Karsa for a second, then realized it was not him, but another Toblakai. 'I don't like fighting,' he said. Also sounds much more like Ublala than Karsa.
Ublala is the one with Icarium when he comes around, yes. That broke my heart, Icarium not even remembering Mappo. But him and Ublala should work well together, the one doesn't remember because of this condition, the other forgets after couple minutes ^^ and Ublala doesn't even know about Icarium's history so can't tell him, and they'll definitely value each other as friends. Liked that part.
Where's this thing about one of QB's souls being the son of MD (Mother Dark?) and Draconus? Don't recall that, that'd really be something else. Oo
I'm fine with how most things were wrapped up, just very few seemed as you say rushed, e.g. the Apsalar/Crokus (not Cutter) thing. Imo it didn't even have to be in the book, it didn't add anything at all and I think most people would just have assumed that Crokus would sooner or later come to his senses, find her and they'd be happily ever after.
We were never what people could be. We were only what we were.
Remember Us.
I'm keeping up with the spoilers, don't know why but really don't want to spoil everythingfor those who find themselves attracted to these pages without finishing it (as would I). Besides I tend to type a lot and will improve the layout instead of wall of text it. Also spoilers for Stonewielder.
Spoiler
On the Otataral, it's just that when Kalam kills the FA at the citadel, she laughs after she heard that Kalam unsheated Otataral. I took it that it's just the stuff that summons not the sword specifically. Hence my comment on Otataral island. The glowing was for me a sign that the Otataral dragon was close or it being a special place not the sword (it could have been Kalam's knife for instance). Don't really have a map in my head so I just wonderd.
The CG's flesh from stonewielder would have tied in with the story ot tCG nicely. It's not really a ' problem' but more of a minor letdown as it would have been nice to have that tied together. I actually expected the stormriders to walk into one of the many thight battles, especially when the Perish ships get attacked in the harbor near the Spire and Omtose being back and all. Also Ruthan Gudd. So nothing big but a missed chance in my opinion.
Hetan is laid down in a sack nearby just before Fener dies. I'm pretty sure the Jaghut were still undead.
On QB (one of this souls is Tiste Andii) in his first chapter he says to MD that she and his father each should play their part but he is going to do his own thing. Cause I know of at least 2 men who where lovers of MD and FL isnt in this book so I figured Draconus was his father.
I actually like the Apasalar/Crokus thing as it is Shadowthrone and Cottilion going full circle. The other things I probably just missed. The other things I probably misread.
Help
Gonna edit my starting post to reflect that this thread should only be read if you've finished the book.
But him and Ublala should work well together, the one doesn't remember because of this condition, the other forgets after couple minutes ^^ and Ublala doesn't even know about Icarium's history so can't tell him, and they'll definitely value each other as friends. Liked that part.
