[epicfantasynerd]

For those looking for the Silchas/Tulas reunion dialogue - the scene starts on page 449 but the death dialogue is on 452-453

However, based on the dialogue - it seems unlikely that Tulas was killed for a simple rape of a hostage.

Tulas says he forgives Rake for killing him.

"I forgive him - for all of it - for my anger, now proved so ... misplaced. ..."

"I forgive him, yes, but I already fear that he would not forgive me, if he could. For my words. My rage. My stupidity. ..."

Silchas then figures out:
"Does it not occur to you that, with a secret as deadly as you seem to suggest, my brother would do all he needed to to prevent its revelation?"

So based on that - I'd say that the rape of Sand is not quite enough to be this Wu shattering secret.

But of course I could be way wrong as usual.

[Mulch]

I think given that it would shatter Silchas and Tulas's friendship that is why it was Wu shattering

[Ceda Cicero]

Mulch, on 03 March 2011 - 03:53 PM, said:

I think given that it would shatter Silchas and Tulas's friendship that is why it was Wu shattering

If you're saying this by way of supporting the notion that Rake killed Tulas for raping Sand and knocking her up with Korlat, I again disagree. The quotes above indicate that Rake and Tulas had an incredibly complex political (for lack of a better term) relationship and that Rake felt compelled to kill Tulas for reasons for more complicated than simple vengeance for a rape. Both Tulas and Ruin would seem to indicate that if Rake were still around, he and Tulas would be able to reach an accord and even make peace. I highly doubt this would be the case if, again, Rake held Tulas responsible for raping Sand.

I'd draw on some side comments from TtH for further support of this. We know that Tulas was one of many names (along with Scabandari and other Edur) mentioned as power players in the last days of Kharkanas and the conflicts that were running rampant in KG/Emurlahn. I think Tulas's murder by Rake's hand is bound up in all of that somehow, and we won't know more about it until the Andii trilogy.

[epicfantasynerd]

Cicero, on 03 March 2011 - 07:09 PM, said:

Mulch, on 03 March 2011 - 03:53 PM, said:

I think given that it would shatter Silchas and Tulas's friendship that is why it was Wu shattering

If you're saying this by way of supporting the notion that Rake killed Tulas for raping Sand and knocking her up with Korlat, I again disagree. The quotes above indicate that Rake and Tulas had an incredibly complex political (for lack of a better term) relationship and that Rake felt compelled to kill Tulas for reasons for more complicated than simple vengeance for a rape. Both Tulas and Ruin would seem to indicate that if Rake were still around, he and Tulas would be able to reach an accord and even make peace. I highly doubt this would be the case if, again, Rake held Tulas responsible for raping Sand.

I'd draw on some side comments from TtH for further support of this. We know that Tulas was one of many names (along with Scabandari and other Edur) mentioned as power players in the last days of Kharkanas and the conflicts that were running rampant in KG/Emurlahn. I think Tulas's murder by Rake's hand is bound up in all of that somehow, and we won't know more about it until the Andii trilogy.

Agreed. I think it points to something deeper - I don't think Rake (romantic though he may be) would consider Silchas and Shorn's friendship to be all that important in the grand scheme of things.

[Hetan]

Regarding Tulas Shorn - I'm pretty sure he is the "prince or King" whom Sandalath referred to in this quote :-

"Silchas Ruin came to us upon that road. Wounded, stricken, he said he had forged an alliance. With an Edur prince – or was he king? If so, not for long. Emurlahn was destroyed, torn apart. He too was on the run."

and from the way Sandalath said that, it didn't sound like she particularly knew him and you'd think she would

Just to back that bit up, Silchas says to Tulas :-
“Was your prison Hood’s realm, Prince, or Dragnipur?”
Tulas straightened, tilted his head. “You refuse me my proper title.”
“I see no throne, Tulas Shorn. Was ‘prince’ not honorific enough? Would you prefer pretender?”

Presumably this must have been before Scabandari took the role? Or alternatively the prince or king in the first quote is Scabandari and Tulas was the pretender as a faction leader. I'm wondering if Silchas was allied with Tulas Shorn who was then killed by Rake (for an unknown reason) prior to Silchas' alliance with Scabandari? But I still don't think Tulas is the one who did the dirty on Sandalath.

"An alliance of the defeated, of the fleeing. They would open a gate leading into another realm. They would find a place of peace, of healing. No throne to fight over, no sceptre to wield, no crown to cut the brow. They would take us there.
Salvation."


So Tulas and Silchas were big buddies before a) the Shattering of Emurlahn and before drinking the blood of the Eleint? It's also clear from the exchange below that some are able to withstand the draconic rage better than others :-

Silchas Ruin shook his head. “It was not. You were lost in the shattering – so even I do not know what happened to you. I … I searched, for a time.”
“As I would have done for you.”
“But then Scara –“
“Curse of the Eleint.”
Silchas nodded. “Too easily embraced.”
“But not you. Not me.”
“It pleases me to hear you say that. Starvald Demelain –“
“I know. The Storm shall be a siren call.”
“Together, we can resist it.”


And Ryadd was considered to be one who could not control himself enough and that's why Silchas took him away

“Oh, there is one other thing – a spawn of Menandore –“
“An enemy?”
“He was born this side of Starvald Demelain.”
“Ah, then a potential ally. Three … a good number. Does this child command the power inside him, does he rule the rage within ?”
“If he did, he would be here with us right now.”

[Quick~]

Just wrapped up, it's been one hell of a ride. Had one minor point to mention that I didn't think was worthy of a thread's discussion so figured this seemed like an active topic for the discussion of little questions! =)

Basically, do we think there is any particular meaning behind the changing of Shadowthrone's name at the end of the book?

Once everything is done and dusted he gets referred to as Ammeanas instead of Ammanas, which initially I took to be an error before I realised the obvious connection with Meanas and the modern warren of shadow. I'm baffled as to whether there was any particular significance or not behind it though =(

[tiam]

Iamme, on 03 March 2011 - 02:19 PM, said:

tiam, on 03 March 2011 - 11:42 AM, said:

Iamme, on 02 March 2011 - 10:53 PM, said:

Nimander has Edur blood too. Edur blood has nothing to do with being low born or Nimander is considered low born too?

Isnt he simply the son of Rake and Envy?

Envy was daughter of Sheltatha Lore, daughter of Bloodeye and T'iam,.

Yor absolutely right I completely forgot about how roundabout these geneaologies are.

Hetan, on 04 March 2011 - 08:01 AM, said:

Regarding Tulas Shorn - I'm pretty sure he is the "prince or King" whom Sandalath referred to in this quote :-

"Silchas Ruin came to us upon that road. Wounded, stricken, he said he had forged an alliance. With an Edur prince – or was he king? If so, not for long. Emurlahn was destroyed, torn apart. He too was on the run."

and from the way Sandalath said that, it didn't sound like she particularly knew him and you'd think she would

Just to back that bit up, Silchas says to Tulas :-
“Was your prison Hood’s realm, Prince, or Dragnipur?”
Tulas straightened, tilted his head. “You refuse me my proper title.”
“I see no throne, Tulas Shorn. Was ‘prince’ not honorific enough? Would you prefer pretender?”

Presumably this must have been before Scabandari took the role? Or alternatively the prince or king in the first quote is Scabandari and Tulas was the pretender as a faction leader. I'm wondering if Silchas was allied with Tulas Shorn who was then killed by Rake (for an unknown reason) prior to Silchas' alliance with Scabandari? But I still don't think Tulas is the one who did the dirty on Sandalath.

"An alliance of the defeated, of the fleeing. They would open a gate leading into another realm. They would find a place of peace, of healing. No throne to fight over, no sceptre to wield, no crown to cut the brow. They would take us there.
Salvation."


So Tulas and Silchas were big buddies before a) the Shattering of Emurlahn and before drinking the blood of the Eleint? It's also clear from the exchange below that some are able to withstand the draconic rage better than others :-

Silchas Ruin shook his head. “It was not. You were lost in the shattering – so even I do not know what happened to you. I … I searched, for a time.”
“As I would have done for you.”
“But then Scara –“
“Curse of the Eleint.”
Silchas nodded. “Too easily embraced.”
“But not you. Not me.”
“It pleases me to hear you say that. Starvald Demelain –“
“I know. The Storm shall be a siren call.”
“Together, we can resist it.”


And Ryadd was considered to be one who could not control himself enough and that's why Silchas took him away

“Oh, there is one other thing – a spawn of Menandore –“
“An enemy?”
“He was born this side of Starvald Demelain.”
“Ah, then a potential ally. Three … a good number. Does this child command the power inside him, does he rule the rage within ?”
“If he did, he would be here with us right now.”

I agree it doesnt seem to be Tulas, and Rake killed him for some deal he had made with Edgewalker to keep a secret of some distinction (you put the edgewalker quote inanother thread).

But the 'prince or king' that would lead them to a new world seems like it has to be Bloodeye. THeres no room for a change given that Ruin and Bloodeye got to Wu defeated a KCCM army then Ruin was betrayed. Tulas doesnt fit in. Ciceronian is right in that Shorn was killed for one of Rakes internal Kharkanas schemes that well see in the trilogy.

[Mulch]

Read further on now and it's clearly Draconus erm.... I think????

[miriya]

Clear as mud, yup.


I was curious about Sand's hostage situation; I mean, she's obviously Andii, so why would she be a hostage in Kharkanas? Hetan's comment up there made a lot of sense; in that regard, and I'd totally buy the Osserc theory. Furthermore, Annie Mandy's rage doesn't have to be because that other person raped Sand -- I mean, yeah, there's plenty of it, but really. What about diplomacy no-no's? I imagine it would probably be frowned on for those holding hostages to bang them as a general rule, and Sand probably had a stick up her arse about pure blood as it was. And Sand was obviously young as a hostage -- she could have been seduced, whether there by some sort of statch (how old do you think an Andii has to be to be considered a fully emotionally developed adult? A thousand years old?) in which case it could be considered rape, or by her just being young and dumb and possibly dazzled by the power/grace/charm of her 'captor'? She doesn't seem to have too many qualms about sleeping/being in a relationship with with non-Andii (I mean, she married Withal), but she'd probably cop an attitude about having children.

So imagine Sand the hostage hooking up with Osserc/whoever was her 'captor', fooling around a bit, and then ... maybe he thought it was a passing thing? Maybe the getting knocked up part was bad? Maybe it was intended as a great big eff you to Kharkanas, or Rake in particular? Imagine if (and oh, those Liosians) that other party had a similar stick in their ass about racial purity/classism? Imagine Sand getting shipped back to Kharkanas, shamed and jilted and pissed, knocked up with some foreign lordling's child; it'd be a total slap in the face to Kharkanas and the Andii race in general, don't you think?

It's something to think about, at least.


Personally, I'd lol if it were Kallor. Yeah, I know it doesn't make too much sense, but I'd lol anyway; Kallor would tap it, just to be a dick.

[Luzburg]

miriya, on 06 March 2011 - 06:25 AM, said:

Clear as mud, yup.


I was curious about Sand's hostage situation; I mean, she's obviously Andii, so why would she be a hostage in Kharkanas? Hetan's comment up there made a lot of sense; in that regard, and I'd totally buy the Osserc theory. Furthermore, Annie Mandy's rage doesn't have to be because that other person raped Sand -- I mean, yeah, there's plenty of it, but really. What about diplomacy no-no's? I imagine it would probably be frowned on for those holding hostages to bang them as a general rule, and Sand probably had a stick up her arse about pure blood as it was. And Sand was obviously young as a hostage -- she could have been seduced, whether there by some sort of statch (how old do you think an Andii has to be to be considered a fully emotionally developed adult? A thousand years old?) in which case it could be considered rape, or by her just being young and dumb and possibly dazzled by the power/grace/charm of her 'captor'? She doesn't seem to have too many qualms about sleeping/being in a relationship with with non-Andii (I mean, she married Withal), but she'd probably cop an attitude about having children.

So imagine Sand the hostage hooking up with Osserc/whoever was her 'captor', fooling around a bit, and then ... maybe he thought it was a passing thing? Maybe the getting knocked up part was bad? Maybe it was intended as a great big eff you to Kharkanas, or Rake in particular? Imagine if (and oh, those Liosians) that other party had a similar stick in their ass about racial purity/classism? Imagine Sand getting shipped back to Kharkanas, shamed and jilted and pissed, knocked up with some foreign lordling's child; it'd be a total slap in the face to Kharkanas and the Andii race in general, don't you think?

It's something to think about, at least.


Personally, I'd lol if it were Kallor. Yeah, I know it doesn't make too much sense, but I'd lol anyway; Kallor would tap it, just to be a dick.

Unlikely.... BUT.. he did kill Orfantal, her favoured son. Could be on to something there. Also, we know that he hooked up with a Liosan already and that must have been much harder to do.

[miriya]

Luzburg, on 06 March 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

miriya, on 06 March 2011 - 06:25 AM, said:

Clear as mud, yup.


I was curious about Sand's hostage situation; I mean, she's obviously Andii, so why would she be a hostage in Kharkanas? Hetan's comment up there made a lot of sense; in that regard, and I'd totally buy the Osserc theory. Furthermore, Annie Mandy's rage doesn't have to be because that other person raped Sand -- I mean, yeah, there's plenty of it, but really. What about diplomacy no-no's? I imagine it would probably be frowned on for those holding hostages to bang them as a general rule, and Sand probably had a stick up her arse about pure blood as it was. And Sand was obviously young as a hostage -- she could have been seduced, whether there by some sort of statch (how old do you think an Andii has to be to be considered a fully emotionally developed adult? A thousand years old?) in which case it could be considered rape, or by her just being young and dumb and possibly dazzled by the power/grace/charm of her 'captor'? She doesn't seem to have too many qualms about sleeping/being in a relationship with with non-Andii (I mean, she married Withal), but she'd probably cop an attitude about having children.

So imagine Sand the hostage hooking up with Osserc/whoever was her 'captor', fooling around a bit, and then ... maybe he thought it was a passing thing? Maybe the getting knocked up part was bad? Maybe it was intended as a great big eff you to Kharkanas, or Rake in particular? Imagine if (and oh, those Liosians) that other party had a similar stick in their ass about racial purity/classism? Imagine Sand getting shipped back to Kharkanas, shamed and jilted and pissed, knocked up with some foreign lordling's child; it'd be a total slap in the face to Kharkanas and the Andii race in general, don't you think?

It's something to think about, at least.


Personally, I'd lol if it were Kallor. Yeah, I know it doesn't make too much sense, but I'd lol anyway; Kallor would tap it, just to be a dick.

Unlikely.... BUT.. he did kill Orfantal, her favoured son. Could be on to something there. Also, we know that he hooked up with a Liosan already and that must have been much harder to do.

Kallor didn't have much interest in letting any of his kids live -- of course, these were times during his own empires, and I don't recall exactly but I don't think Korlat was around during his empire days. Though if Sand was sequestered in Kharkanas, he simply might not have had access to her.

Nah, if Annie swore revenge, he wouldn't have been chilling with Kallor without first ripping him a new Dragnipur-sized butthole.


I'm wondering about Sand's name, too. Naming conventions among the Andii (or possibly Tiste in general) are pretty much unexplained. Is it that high-born/ 'nobles' get family names, and the 'commoners' don't? Among the Edur, there are the Sengars and the Mosags, and among the Andii Silann miiiight be a last name, and there are two-named Liosans, too. Rake, Bloodeye, Ruin and the rest make sense that their second names are more descriptors as opposed to family names, also their parents weren't exactly the family name sort of folks. Nimander gets a last name, Spinnock has one, but Clip, Kedeviss and the crew don't, neither do Korlat, Serrat, etc.

But really where I'm kind of going is, if she had been accepted, would she be Korlat Drukorlat? I didn't think about it when reading that Sand was her mom, but that seems kind of coincidental. Maybe a portion of the parent's name is used as a bastard naming convention, but now I'm really curious.

[Illuyankas]

The interesting thing when it comes to Kallor is that he's only around from 120,000 years before the present books, but he's interacting with the Liosan personally, which means they haven't been isolated for as long as I thought before. I guess we'll see more of that in the Kharkanas trilogy, if it comes up.

[Ceda Cicero]

I know this has been mentioned in passing elsewhere - if I've missed more extensive discussion and should be taking this to another thread, someone point me in the right direction.

Cotillion stabbing the Crippled God. Need help. Was this to ensure his ascension? I don't think so.... If not, what are we meant to glean from that? I understand that in the conversation he has with ST after the event, ST approves. What gets me is why Koryk is the only soldier who is disturbed by this... Would've thought the rest of the marines/heavies would've been a little miffed at going through all that to protect the barrow only to have Cotillion show up and take him out.

[Illuyankas]

He didn't know about the whole 'need to lose your physical manifestation so yo soul can ghost ride back to yo crib with yo jade homies, Crip out, holmes' thing, similar to Hood getting killed and his soul heading off back to the hood, dawg.

No apologies can make up for what I have just done.

[D'rek]

Re Tulas/Scabby/Silchas:

It seems to me that Silchas was allied with Tulas first, and then allied with Scabby. I can't recall Scabby ever being referred to as a prince or a king, only Father Shadow by the Edur later. This quote

Quote

"Silchas Ruin came to us upon that road. Wounded, stricken, he said he had forged an alliance. With an Edur prince – or was he king? If so, not for long. Emurlahn was destroyed, torn apart. He too was on the run."

is not especially important, but based on the honorifics I would say refers to Tulas. And while inconclusive, Tulas harping on the honorifics here

Quote

“Was your prison Hood’s realm, Prince, or Dragnipur?”
Tulas straightened, tilted his head. “You refuse me my proper title.”
“I see no throne, Tulas Shorn. Was ‘prince’ not honorific enough? Would you prefer pretender?”

kind of reinforces the notion that the prince/king bit earlier was in reference to him.

As far as the "timeline" of it all goes, I see it as

1. Emurlahn is sundered
2. Silchas Ruin meets and recruits Sandalath and folks on the road of Gallan
3. Tulas is killed
4. Silchas looks for Tulas for a wee bit
5. Scabby's Edur and Silchas' Andii team up and continue on the road of Gallan, exiting in Lether
6. With the royal line of the Edur gone, including Tulas, and Scabby gone too, Kalse, Eloth and Ampelas take over Emurlahn
7. Silchas and Scabby fight the K'Chain, Sandalath dies, Silchas gets Azathed
8. Mael, Killy and Gothos finnestify Scabby
9. Killy goes with Rake into KE for an average tuesday of dragon bashing




re Sandalath:

are we sure she was a Hostage to the Liosan? I always thought she was a Hostage between rivaling factions of the Andii civil war....



re stabbing TCG:

I had a crazy notion at the time that it was because he needed to be crippled to use the power of his worship on Wu, in order to use that power to get out of Wu or some such. But then I realized Cotillion doesn't go to the effort of stabbing someone if he's not going to kill them...

[Ceda Cicero]

D, on 06 March 2011 - 04:13 PM, said:

Re Tulas/Scabby/Silchas:

It seems to me that Silchas was allied with Tulas first, and then allied with Scabby. I can't recall Scabby ever being referred to as a prince or a king, only Father Shadow by the Edur later. This quote

Quote

"Silchas Ruin came to us upon that road. Wounded, stricken, he said he had forged an alliance. With an Edur prince – or was he king? If so, not for long. Emurlahn was destroyed, torn apart. He too was on the run."

is not especially important, but based on the honorifics I would say refers to Tulas. And while inconclusive, Tulas harping on the honorifics here

Quote

"Was your prison Hood's realm, Prince, or Dragnipur?"
Tulas straightened, tilted his head. "You refuse me my proper title."
"I see no throne, Tulas Shorn. Was 'prince' not honorific enough? Would you prefer pretender?"

kind of reinforces the notion that the prince/king bit earlier was in reference to him.

As far as the "timeline" of it all goes, I see it as

1. Emurlahn is sundered
2. Silchas Ruin meets and recruits Sandalath and folks on the road of Gallan
3. Tulas is killed
4. Silchas looks for Tulas for a wee bit
5. Scabby's Edur and Silchas' Andii team up and continue on the road of Gallan, exiting in Lether
6. With the royal line of the Edur gone, including Tulas, and Scabby gone too, Kalse, Eloth and Ampelas take over Emurlahn
7. Silchas and Scabby fight the K'Chain, Sandalath dies, Silchas gets Azathed
8. Mael, Killy and Gothos finnestify Scabby
9. Killy goes with Rake into KE for an average tuesday of dragon bashing




re Sandalath:

are we sure she was a Hostage to the Liosan? I always thought she was a Hostage between rivaling factions of the Andii civil war....



re stabbing TCG:

I had a crazy notion at the time that it was because he needed to be crippled to use the power of his worship on Wu, in order to use that power to get out of Wu or some such. But then I realized Cotillion doesn't go to the effort of stabbing someone if he's not going to kill them...

Re: Sandalath, it's definitely Hostage among factions of Andii. I remember throughout portions of DoD this was made pretty clear. And in tCG, all memories of her time as a hostage are centered around Kharkanas - nothing to indicate that she was ever held as a hostage in Saranas or any other Liosan city.

Re: stabbing, I guess Illy's explanation makes the most sense and there's no doubt that Cots did it so that Kaminsod could fully ascend. But there was just something strange about it to me, about Kaminsod's surprised reaction, Fiddler thinking to himself "tell me we didn't do all that for nothing," Quick Ben pointing at Cotillion's silhouette and telling Fiddler and Hedge to go ask him, Fiddler declining because he wasn't sure he wanted to know, and Cotillion telling Shadowthrone he dislikes failure... There's something about that whole sequence that still has me a little confused.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Cicero, on 06 March 2011 - 06:14 PM, said:

D, on 06 March 2011 - 04:13 PM, said:

Re Tulas/Scabby/Silchas:

It seems to me that Silchas was allied with Tulas first, and then allied with Scabby. I can't recall Scabby ever being referred to as a prince or a king, only Father Shadow by the Edur later. This quote

Quote

"Silchas Ruin came to us upon that road. Wounded, stricken, he said he had forged an alliance. With an Edur prince – or was he king? If so, not for long. Emurlahn was destroyed, torn apart. He too was on the run."

is not especially important, but based on the honorifics I would say refers to Tulas. And while inconclusive, Tulas harping on the honorifics here

Quote

"Was your prison Hood's realm, Prince, or Dragnipur?"
Tulas straightened, tilted his head. "You refuse me my proper title."
"I see no throne, Tulas Shorn. Was 'prince' not honorific enough? Would you prefer pretender?"

kind of reinforces the notion that the prince/king bit earlier was in reference to him.

As far as the "timeline" of it all goes, I see it as

1. Emurlahn is sundered
2. Silchas Ruin meets and recruits Sandalath and folks on the road of Gallan
3. Tulas is killed
4. Silchas looks for Tulas for a wee bit
5. Scabby's Edur and Silchas' Andii team up and continue on the road of Gallan, exiting in Lether
6. With the royal line of the Edur gone, including Tulas, and Scabby gone too, Kalse, Eloth and Ampelas take over Emurlahn
7. Silchas and Scabby fight the K'Chain, Sandalath dies, Silchas gets Azathed
8. Mael, Killy and Gothos finnestify Scabby
9. Killy goes with Rake into KE for an average tuesday of dragon bashing




re Sandalath:

are we sure she was a Hostage to the Liosan? I always thought she was a Hostage between rivaling factions of the Andii civil war....



re stabbing TCG:

I had a crazy notion at the time that it was because he needed to be crippled to use the power of his worship on Wu, in order to use that power to get out of Wu or some such. But then I realized Cotillion doesn't go to the effort of stabbing someone if he's not going to kill them...

Re: Sandalath, it's definitely Hostage among factions of Andii. I remember throughout portions of DoD this was made pretty clear. And in tCG, all memories of her time as a hostage are centered around Kharkanas - nothing to indicate that she was ever held as a hostage in Saranas or any other Liosan city.

Re: stabbing, I guess Illy's explanation makes the most sense and there's no doubt that Cots did it so that Kaminsod could fully ascend. But there was just something strange about it to me, about Kaminsod's surprised reaction, Fiddler thinking to himself "tell me we didn't do all that for nothing," Quick Ben pointing at Cotillion's silhouette and telling Fiddler and Hedge to go ask him, Fiddler declining because he wasn't sure he wanted to know, and Cotillion telling Shadowthrone he dislikes failure... There's something about that whole sequence that still has me a little confused.

me as well. this seems like one of those things that will take a lot of inferring from off-hand remarks and little bits of info dropped here and there, in order to figure out. how i understand it is basically the same way illy explained it. he couldn't leave Wu unless his soul was freed to join his worshippers.

mainly, i'm still wracking my brain to figure out what cotillion was asking eloth to do when he asks her to dream for him and says 'listen, this is how it must be'

in fact, this is probably one of the things i'm most confused about. what is the purpose of eloth dreaming for cotillion? what effect does it have?

[tiam]

Cicero, on 06 March 2011 - 06:14 PM, said:

D, on 06 March 2011 - 04:13 PM, said:

Re Tulas/Scabby/Silchas:

It seems to me that Silchas was allied with Tulas first, and then allied with Scabby. I can't recall Scabby ever being referred to as a prince or a king, only Father Shadow by the Edur later. This quote

Quote

"Silchas Ruin came to us upon that road. Wounded, stricken, he said he had forged an alliance. With an Edur prince – or was he king? If so, not for long. Emurlahn was destroyed, torn apart. He too was on the run."

is not especially important, but based on the honorifics I would say refers to Tulas. And while inconclusive, Tulas harping on the honorifics here

Quote

"Was your prison Hood's realm, Prince, or Dragnipur?"
Tulas straightened, tilted his head. "You refuse me my proper title."
"I see no throne, Tulas Shorn. Was 'prince' not honorific enough? Would you prefer pretender?"

kind of reinforces the notion that the prince/king bit earlier was in reference to him.

As far as the "timeline" of it all goes, I see it as

1. Emurlahn is sundered
2. Silchas Ruin meets and recruits Sandalath and folks on the road of Gallan
3. Tulas is killed
4. Silchas looks for Tulas for a wee bit
5. Scabby's Edur and Silchas' Andii team up and continue on the road of Gallan, exiting in Lether
6. With the royal line of the Edur gone, including Tulas, and Scabby gone too, Kalse, Eloth and Ampelas take over Emurlahn
7. Silchas and Scabby fight the K'Chain, Sandalath dies, Silchas gets Azathed
8. Mael, Killy and Gothos finnestify Scabby
9. Killy goes with Rake into KE for an average tuesday of dragon bashing




re Sandalath:

are we sure she was a Hostage to the Liosan? I always thought she was a Hostage between rivaling factions of the Andii civil war....



re stabbing TCG:

I had a crazy notion at the time that it was because he needed to be crippled to use the power of his worship on Wu, in order to use that power to get out of Wu or some such. But then I realized Cotillion doesn't go to the effort of stabbing someone if he's not going to kill them...

Re: Sandalath, it's definitely Hostage among factions of Andii. I remember throughout portions of DoD this was made pretty clear. And in tCG, all memories of her time as a hostage are centered around Kharkanas - nothing to indicate that she was ever held as a hostage in Saranas or any other Liosan city.

Re: stabbing, I guess Illy's explanation makes the most sense and there's no doubt that Cots did it so that Kaminsod could fully ascend. But there was just something strange about it to me, about Kaminsod's surprised reaction, Fiddler thinking to himself "tell me we didn't do all that for nothing," Quick Ben pointing at Cotillion's silhouette and telling Fiddler and Hedge to go ask him, Fiddler declining because he wasn't sure he wanted to know, and Cotillion telling Shadowthrone he dislikes failure... There's something about that whole sequence that still has me a little confused.

You say theres no doubt Cotillion stabbed him so he could 'ascend' but I dont actually believe that. HE seemed to be floating away back to his worshippers just fine. If he needed to be killed its likely the CG would know this but Cotillion strikes from behind. It hardly like he embraced it. Also after the event Cotillion sees ST and ST commends what Cotillion has done.

Im sure that the Adjunct is working for Cotillion so he could kill, not release, TCG. I wrote about thsi in another thread somewhere...

[miriya]

Cicero, on 06 March 2011 - 06:14 PM, said:

Re: Sandalath, it's definitely Hostage among factions of Andii. I remember throughout portions of DoD this was made pretty clear. And in tCG, all memories of her time as a hostage are centered around Kharkanas - nothing to indicate that she was ever held as a hostage in Saranas or any other Liosan city.

Re: stabbing, I guess Illy's explanation makes the most sense and there's no doubt that Cots did it so that Kaminsod could fully ascend. But there was just something strange about it to me, about Kaminsod's surprised reaction, Fiddler thinking to himself "tell me we didn't do all that for nothing," Quick Ben pointing at Cotillion's silhouette and telling Fiddler and Hedge to go ask him, Fiddler declining because he wasn't sure he wanted to know, and Cotillion telling Shadowthrone he dislikes failure... There's something about that whole sequence that still has me a little confused.

See, that would require me remembering things that I obviously didn't. :| I sort of ran with the Liosan thing above and kinda spaced that the hostages were traded between Andii. Sad end to a fun potential theory.

I was a little weirded out by the stabbing of Kaminsod, too. I mean, I get he has to be released, and the 'friendly' gods had said his release would 'end in the hands of the another', but didn't tell him how -- Fid seemed more interested in believing that was the only way, is kind of how I read that, but I could be wrong. I really do think the stabbing was ensuring ascension, but it's still got to be a disturbing thing to see a freaking god get shanked right in front of you.

Fiddler looked back up at the sky. The Jade Strangers looked farther away. He knew that was impossible. Too soon for that. Still …


I had had a brief thought while the 'assassination' was happening that Tavore had tried to rescue TCG, but that 'friendly' faction of gods knew (or assumed) that saving Kaminsod meant his followers were going to dive bomb the planet, and that would suck, so they off'd him, since Kam was acting as a magnet for them. Even giving Tavore a fair chance, if they felt they were cutting it too close, well, we've seen how practical they can be. I don't think that's what happened, but that would actually be a tragedy of the scope that was hinted since Tavore led the Bonehunters off into the wild unknown. 'We want to help you, but not at the cost of our world. Sorry, dude. :<

This post has been edited by miriya: 07 March 2011 - 04:19 AM

[Migol]

tiam, on 27 February 2011 - 06:38 PM, said:

But just before he's about to be released (even though his 'soul' seems to vanish upwards afterwards) Cotillion stabs him, the only real point during the entire series hes ever had the opportunity. I at least got the impression afterwards that Cotillion may have been acting on his own in this. Furthermore the Adjunct turns out to be a Talon, a potential agent of Cotillion. We see conversations between ST an the CG about him not wanting to be betrayed but it seems that Cotillion, through the Adjunct, might have been playing his own game. After the deed ST agrees with Cotillions decision. Therefore could the betrayal not have been the Adjunct herself? Betraying their goal, as an agent of the Talon, for Cotillion? It would be a nice twist if it was...


TL:DR? The adjunct was the betrayer as a Talon

Oh Jeebus. I hope I'm wrong here, but I just had a brainflash go on at your last line.

Didn't at some point midway through the books, Cotillon say something to the effect of "aha! Now I know what the Talons are planning...but we can't let them succeed."

What if the Adjunct's goal in fact WAS to simply free TCG, give him a new body and so on, and Cotillon is the one who backstabs him to stop it? Makes you think