[Mott]

My first thought was Ublala and Draconus but they've been together for such a short amount of time so I'm not so certain anymore. Shadowthrone and Pust would make more sense. I wonder what he has worked out though it seems to have something to do with the gods connections to specific mortals but past that I can't come up with anything.

I was leaning towards Brys being the wrapped body since people seem to get into the habit of re-dying in Malaz (Toc).He wasn't particularly close to Tavore though and I can't think of his great regret unless it was not getting it on with Aranict. I suppose leading his soldiers into the middle of a giant lizard battle could count as a regret. Heboric makes sense since he was floating around in Mael's realm and he might be able to shed light on Tavore from what he learnt from Felisin, he certainly had a lot of regret but his spirit seemed to have been driven half-mad. Bottle seems a possibility as well since his will is no doubt strong and he was disconnected from his body at the time, he probably knows more than has been revealed since he likes to spy on coversations so much but I can't think of a big regret. Every person I think of as likely I end up arguing myself out of their suitability but I suppose it would be less fun if I knew the answer.

[Ceda Cicero]

I just have to think it's Heboric. Last we saw of his physical body it was dumped into the sea and wrapped (IIRC) as Abyss said. Plus, when Paran contacted Hood to release Heboric's soul to take out the Jade Giants, he explicitly stated that he had been trying to reach Mael.

The "nightmare of guilt" thing is key. And Heboric is a soul that would inarguably be trapped in a nightmare of guilt. Hell, when he was alive, he was trapped in a nightmare of guilt.

[Ceda Cicero]

ansible, on 03 February 2011 - 12:14 AM, said:

I have to think the body is either Brys or Heboric. Brys because contextually it seems obvious that Mael is referring to him and looking at him at the same time. But, not conclusive. Heboric seems to fit for all the reasons mentioned above.

When Calm talks about there being twelve Pures, my first thought was twelve Pure dragons of Starvald Demelain (though it might indeed refer to Pure FA).

Looking back through MT:

Midnight Tides, p. 588, TOR MMPB said:

The boy shrugged. 'T'iam, Kalse, Silannah, Ampelas, Okaros, Karosis, Sorrit, Atrahal, Eloth, Anthras, Kessobahn, Alkend, Karatallid, Korbas....Olar. Eleint. Draconean. Dragons. The Pure Dragons. The place where the road comes from is closed. By the mixed blods who gathered long ago. Draconus, K'rul, Anomandaris, Osserc, Silchas Ruin, Scabandari, Sheltatha Lore, Sukul Ankhadu, and Menandore.'

Now - there are 14 dragons listed. T'iam and Korbas I would place in a separate category, since they are unique. That leaves...the twelve dragons for the twelve gates? We know Sorrit is dead - and Tiam too, right? So out of the original 14, only 12 are alive.

[EDIT: Ok, there are 15 dragons including Olar Ethil. Either she is unique and not pure (first Soletaken, perhaps?), or one of the other dragons may be dead (perhaps Calm senses Kessobahn's imminent demise) and Olar is the 12th one living.]

Calm says:

Quote

Twelve Pures remained, feeding. Twelve. Perhaps there were others, lost in farflung places, but she knew nothing of them. No, these twelve, they would be the faces of the final storm, and, pre-eminent among them all, she would stand at that storm's centre.

The 12 being dragons instead of Forkrul Assail fits nicely with the TCG blurb about dragons coming again. Also, check out that cover and tell me you don't see a fucking dragon at the head of the final storm.

Also, did anyone else just notice the name KESSOBAHN among the dragons listed by Rud Ellale? What the fuck. So the Liosan just slew a major dragon, like Sorrit, who probably controlled a warren. However, Kessobahn is still alive which jives with Calm still sensing 12 dragons (unless this timeline of 10 pages is just crazy).

Quote

He'd known what the answer would be and he nodded. Our father. Your pain, your blood, our gift. Celebrate our rebirth, Our Father Kessobahn, with your death. And for you, there shall be no return.

I think this gives a lot of insight into Eleint. "there shall be no return" suggests that if Kessobahn had not been subsequently torn apart by these new Soletaken, he would have returned. This sounds exactly like how Rake and everyone drank the blood of T'iam.... and now that T'iam isn't coming back, perhaps she was torn to pieces like Kessobahn instead of being allowed to "return"?

There was an interesting comment about how not even the Azath can breach Akhrast Korvalain - does this mean there is no path in the Azath that leads to this realm? Previously it's been assumed the Azath leads to all (or most) worlds/realms...

My crazy theory is that since the Azath housing the Gates of Starvald Demelain is dying, Shadowthrone's gambit is to somehow usurp this Azath like he usurped the Deadhouse and become master of Starvald Demelain (healing the wounds of the gates and resealing them with the Azath, saving the world but also becoming the most insanely powerful god...ever?).

I need a whole 'nother 12 hours to process everything in your post, but I just had to say - aside from giving you rep already - that that quote from MT and pointing out that Kessobahn has been mentioned already is absolutely awesome.

This post has been edited by Ciceronian: 03 February 2011 - 01:00 AM

[Khellendros]

Why do people seem to think that the 'me with mine, you with yours' bit refers to single partnerships like K'rul and Kruppe, Shadowthrone and Pust, etc.? I got the impression they were talking about their worshippers, rather than a single person.

The body Mael brings is totally Heboric.

And staying with that scene, I liked their little reference to a horserider in front of Tool, which they considered a heartbreaking tale - clearly Toc, and clearly that's not over yet.


I have to say, I was filled with some trepidation after Pat's review and subsequent comments made it sound like there would be quite a few major characters/plotlines not even featuring, but this first chapter featured/referenced just about everyone I wanted to see in the final book! Only Apsalar, Crokus, and Silverfox missing.

[champ]

Quote

‘Kalse and Ampelas have shared your gift. They looked upon one another with faces of stone. There was pain. There was fire. An eye opened and it looked upon the Abyss.'

So Kalse/Ampelas Uprooted were in fact dragons...

It's lines like this that make SE the legend that he is, so easily missed if not paying attention!

[Khellendros]

That is a damn good spot! The eye opened and looked upon the Abyss must be referring to the Errant's eye.

This post has been edited by Khellendros: 03 February 2011 - 01:34 PM

[Steve Halter]

ansible, on 03 February 2011 - 12:14 AM, said:

When Calm talks about there being twelve Pures, my first thought was twelve Pure dragons of Starvald Demelain (though it might indeed refer to Pure FA).

That was my first thought also. But, then I also like the FA theory as it explains why some of them die so easily. Maybe there are 12 pure dragons left and 12 pure FA. Maybe Kil was trying to do her own warren control of some sort. She does have a big hate on for dragons.

[champ]

Am sure that in one of the books it mentions "a dozen" Jade Statues...

I may just be making this up but I have this detail logged in my noggin from somewhere...

If I am not just making it up then the twelve pure FA's calling down 1 Jade Statue each...

But if it's fabricated then god knows why I am thinking this... Probably cross book mix-up

[Salt-Man Z]

champooon, on 03 February 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Am sure that in one of the books it mentions "a dozen" Jade Statues...

I may just be making this up but I have this detail logged in my noggin from somewhere...

If I am not just making it up then the twelve pure FA's calling down 1 Jade Statue each...

But if it's fabricated then god knows why I am thinking this... Probably cross book mix-up

In HoC, Heboric sees "scores" of them.

[champ]

Salt-Man Z, on 03 February 2011 - 04:11 PM, said:

champooon, on 03 February 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

Am sure that in one of the books it mentions "a dozen" Jade Statues...

I may just be making this up but I have this detail logged in my noggin from somewhere...

If I am not just making it up then the twelve pure FA's calling down 1 Jade Statue each...

But if it's fabricated then god knows why I am thinking this... Probably cross book mix-up

In HoC, Heboric sees "scores" of them.

I know there's the reference where he sees an endless procession of them vanishing into the void, I just cannot remember specifically if there was the key word "dozen" in one of the many sightings, I will have to take a gander tonight see if I can spot anything

[iRFNA]

On tavore and ganoes eventually being reunited... I have a sneaking suspicion that the dagger that mael gave tavore, which so horrified her, might take her sibling murdering to the next level.

[Illuyankas]

champooon, on 03 February 2011 - 01:01 PM, said:

Quote

‘Kalse and Ampelas have shared your gift. They looked upon one another with faces of stone. There was pain. There was fire. An eye opened and it looked upon the Abyss.'

So Kalse/Ampelas Uprooted were in fact dragons...

It's lines like this that make SE the legend that he is, so easily missed if not paying attention!

Not to mention Kalse dreaming of ice while Kalse Uprooted was being driven around by Captain CrazyJhag himself. Good eye.

[MegaLeafs]

Paran, Aren, and a Burning Throne.

I'm thinking T'lan Imass? Could that be what he is up to, he has the connection to Silverfox as well who went off doing who knows what on Assail, isn't that where Paran is, there is that other T'lan clan there as well, weren't the FA doing some stuff there as well?

The burning throne bit at the end. I think that is significant. Could that be a separate "Throne" similar to the one ST used to control the Logros? But maybe this one has to do with the Imass on Assail.

[Ceda Cicero]

MegaLeafs, on 04 February 2011 - 09:35 PM, said:

Paran, Aren, and a Burning Throne.

I'm thinking T'lan Imass? Could that be what he is up to, he has the connection to Silverfox as well who went off doing who knows what on Assail, isn't that where Paran is, there is that other T'lan clan there as well, weren't the FA doing some stuff there as well?

The burning throne bit at the end. I think that is significant. Could that be a separate "Throne" similar to the one ST used to control the Logros? But maybe this one has to do with the Imass on Assail.

The first time I read through that section I misread Paran's convos with Noto and Shadowthrone as placing him and the Host in Aren as well, but I think on a closer look it's pretty clear that they were in Aren, but are not anymore. Noto asks him "Tell me again, how is this better than Aren?" and Shadowthrone makes a reference to Paran sitting in Aren, ignoring Mallick, then "opening a gate," presumably one that would take him out of Aren.

[Luzburg]

Ciceronian, on 04 February 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

MegaLeafs, on 04 February 2011 - 09:35 PM, said:

Paran, Aren, and a Burning Throne.

I'm thinking T'lan Imass? Could that be what he is up to, he has the connection to Silverfox as well who went off doing who knows what on Assail, isn't that where Paran is, there is that other T'lan clan there as well, weren't the FA doing some stuff there as well?

The burning throne bit at the end. I think that is significant. Could that be a separate "Throne" similar to the one ST used to control the Logros? But maybe this one has to do with the Imass on Assail.

The first time I read through that section I misread Paran's convos with Noto and Shadowthrone as placing him and the Host in Aren as well, but I think on a closer look it's pretty clear that they were in Aren, but are not anymore. Noto asks him "Tell me again, how is this better than Aren?" and Shadowthrone makes a reference to Paran sitting in Aren, ignoring Mallick, then "opening a gate," presumably one that would take him out of Aren.

Isn't it pretty clear he is in Icarias, possibly besieged by Forkrul Mongrels? Sorry if you know that and I misunderstood

[Ceda Cicero]

Hmmm, I didn't read it as Icarias, but then my recollection of how it's described in DoD is a little hazy. Is there any evidence from the Snake's visit to suggest there's a big, walled keep like that one Paran is standing under? Also if Paran is under siege there (and it appears that he has been for at least some while, even if it hasn't been too long) how would this conflict with the timeline with the Snake arriving in Icarias and finding it abandoned?

More likely, I think Paran is in Kolanse proper, possibly its capital, and possibly the keep stands just over the heart of the Crippled God itself. There's some evidence for this in the K'rul/Mael exchange - K'rul says the warrens around Kaminsod's heart are a mess, and Shadowthrone indicates that Paran has done some pretty nasty stuff with the warrens where he is. (Although, the source of the mess K'rul is referring to could be any number of other things at Kaminsod's heart - FAs, the heart itself causing disturbances, etc.)

This post has been edited by Ciceronian: 04 February 2011 - 10:46 PM

[ShadowRaven]

For some reason the meeting between Shadowthrone and Paran (and my recent reread of MoI) made me think the Host is in the place where the Emurlahn throne is hidden as that whole scene in MoI seemed like foreshadowing (based on the description of the room in MoI, I faintly remember it seeming like a fortress on a coast), and it could be in Kolanse. This could explain Shadowthrone's comment about "finding someplace else to lodge your army", and Noto's comment about Aren (which also has a keep on the coast). Maybe the burning throne is the throne of Emurlahn, that should certainly cause an assault on the warrens

[Varan]

Im guessing one of the two on the barrow is this guy from midnight tides:

Quote

Rhulad spoke. ‘I am Emperor Rhulad of the Tiste Edur. Who, and what, are you, stranger?’
‘I am Forkrul Assail. I am named Serenity.’

Guess he managed to make his way to kolanese afterwards

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Highly umprobable seeing how Serenity was kicked in some deep hole by the two demon Princes at the end of MT. Of course, maybe that wasn't enough to stop a FA.

[amphibian]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 05 February 2011 - 05:17 PM, said:

Highly umprobable seeing how Serenity was kicked in some deep hole by the two demon Princes at the end of MT. Of course, maybe that wasn't enough to stop a FA.

Not just kicked in a hole, they jumped in after him. I've long wondered what happened to those three.