[nacht]

Does anybody have a spreadsheet for the complete Deck of Dragons and the current holders of the titles (and maybe the tiles too).? Maybe there are some forum topics dedicated to this topic (though i searched the titles) and did not find any specific topics.
I know that the early books listed the deck but may not be updated with the latest events.

This post has been edited by nacht: 26 January 2011 - 09:07 PM

[Aptorian]

I know D'rek (forum member, not the Elder Being) has been doing spreadsheets of various system and groupings, but I don't think anyone but Erikson or his advanced reading minions have that kind of information.

What is worse is that there has been a lot of change and actual position vary from what you hear in a reading.

How far are you in the series? We could try and make a list of known characters and their positions in the Houses.

[nacht]

I have read all of SE's books twice except the Buchelain/Korbal Broach novellas and all of ICE's books once.
I am on a 3rd read of MT and Reaper's gale and this time I am keeping a Marker handy.

Who would have thought that one day I would be reading Novels with a Highlighter in hand.

[D'rek]

There aren't any real "holders" of cards. The cards may have the same names as positions in the pantheon but they can represent whoever and whatever they like. Off the top of my head, though, below is a list of cards in the Deck of Dragons, and in brackets are characters known to hold those positions in the pantheon. So yeah, Rake is the Knight of Darkness of High House Dark, that is his position in the pantheon. But if you lay out the Deck on another continent as him, the Knight of Dark card could just as easily represent some random human who is doing or will soon do some actions that the Knight of Dark card represents symbolically. For example, in DG Kalam gets the Assassin of Shadow card in a reading - Cotillion still holds that position in the pantheon, but Kalam is or will perform actions that are best represented by the Assassin card.


SPOILERS FOR ALL BOOKS BELOW


High House Life

King
Queen (T'riss aka The Queen of Dreams since... well a long time)
Champion
Priest
Herald
Soldier
Weaver

Builder (mystery title seen only in RotCG)
Whore (mystery title seen only in RotCG)

High House Death

King (Hood until the end of TtH)
Queen
Knight (Dassem Ultor from roughly 1050 BS until the second/most recent Chaining; Baudin after DG; switched to the Seguleh 2nd by TtH)
Magi (possibly Talamandas after MoI, but it's not confirmed)
Herald (Gethol until MoI, later Toc the Younger)
Soldier (The Seguleh 2nd for a while, then switched to Baudin)
Spinner
Mason (Thordy is ref'd as a Mason in TtH)
Virgin

High House Light

King
Queen
Champion (Osserc)
Priest
Captain
Soldier (ref'd or hinted as Kyle to some extent a couple times, but nothing official)
Seamstress
Builder
Maiden

High House Dark

King
Queen (presumably Mother Dark)
Knight (Anomander Rake)
Magi
Captain
Soldier
Weaver
Mason
Wife

High House Shadow

King (Shadowthrone following NoK; previously Jhedel and many others)
Queen
Assassin (Cotillion following NoK)
Knight (Trull Sengar from tBH through RG)
Magi (Iskaral Pust)
Hound (The Hounds of Shadow)

High House of Chains

The King in Chains (Rhulad until RG, Skinner after RotCG)
Consort (Poliel until tBH)
Reaver (Kallor)
Knight (Karsa Orlong)
The Seven of the Dead Fires (The Unbound)
Herald (Gethol)
--Mowri is said to have embraced all 3 of the following in MoI, the below names may be occupying the positions at a more mortal level:
Cripple (Munug)
Leper (Silgar until HoC)
Fool

High House War

Lords of War (Togg and Fanderay)
Hunter (Treach)
Guardians of the Dead (Bridgeburners)
Mercenary
Army/Soldier

The Unaligned

Oponn
Obelisk (aspect of Burn in some regards)
Crown
Sceptre
Orb
Throne
Chain
Master of the Deck (Ganoes Paran)
Lifeslayer (Icarium)
Deathslayer (The Crippled God)
Salvation /The Apocalyptic

[Aptorian]

D, on 26 January 2011 - 08:21 PM, said:

The King in Chains (Rhulad until RG, Skinner after RotCG)

Is there actually a reference to Rhulad being King of the House of Chains. He is hinted at being the Mortal Sword of a Thousand Deaths in HOC but I'd don't remember him being mentioned as King. When Skinner claims the tittle the CG says that it was about time somebody claimed the tittle, suggesting that the House until then had yet to have a ruler.

[D'rek]

Roger Ramjet, on 26 January 2011 - 08:30 PM, said:

D, on 26 January 2011 - 08:21 PM, said:

The King in Chains (Rhulad until RG, Skinner after RotCG)

Is there actually a reference to Rhulad being King of the House of Chains. He is hinted at being the Mortal Sword of a Thousand Deaths in HOC but I'd don't remember him being mentioned as King. When Skinner claims the tittle the CG says that it was about time somebody claimed the tittle, suggesting that the House until then had yet to have a ruler.

Well, there's this:

Quote

Steven Erikson: Kallor as King or Reaver? The intent was, he certainly aspired to be king, and still does. But the throne is not empty. (Q and A with malazanempire No 1 (2003))

[nacht]

Quote

But if you lay out the Deck on another continent as him, the Knight of Dark card could just as easily represent some random human who is doing or will soon do some actions that the Knight of Dark card represents symbolically.

You came up with these cards right out of memory (and this quickly!). Wow! Wow! You should be in the list of most badass fans :-)

Do you think each house might be tied to by a "pure" dragon (it is after all a deck of dragons)

some more candidates.

Weaver of High House Life - That nice witch from Malaz (mentor of Kiska)
Virgin of Death - Dunsparrow
Orb - K'rul
Magi of High House Dark - Quick Ben
King of Shadow - Trull's son
Knight of Dark - Maybe Nimander now
Mason of Death - WhiskeyJack



BTW, how do these cards relate to the "Destrai anant (Destraint), Shield Anvil and Mortal sword".
It seems Mortal Sword might match to the Knight.

How about Samar Dev who is supposed to be Head Priestess of Burn

[nacht]

Maybe we should first try to ascertain the relationships between the Cards, the Gods, the Warrens, the Dragons and the "special" mortals that serve them.

[Siergiej]

Mortal sword, as the name suggests, is mortal. Therefore, has nothing to do with the Knight or Champion positions (hi Rake, hi Osric!). Also, I don't think there is any direct connection, between religious titles (destriant, shield anvil, mortal sword) and the Deck of Dragon.

[ShadowRaven]

I might be wrong about some of these and I'm not sure which are "permanent" holders or just holding the position for the moment, but here are some additions:

House of Life

King - Brys Beddict
Herald - Ublala Pung


House of Death

King - Bridgeburners are hinted at having taken the position after Hood's death, although they are also the Guardians of the Dead in the House of War
Mason - Wasn't it confirmed as Hedge in DoD?
Virgin - Dunsparrow, but I think Sinn was also hinted to occupy this position at some point?


House of Dark

Queen - As D'rek said, Mother Dark is the obvious choice, Fid's reading in DoD appointed Sandalath Drukorlat into this position, but there's also the unoccupied position of Wife in there so who knows...
Consort - We haven't seen it as a card but Draconus was referred to as the Consort of Darkness in TtH/DoD a couple of times (although that could've just been an honorific when he lived among the Andii getting it on with Mother Dark)


House of Chains

Consort - Didn't the former empress of Lether, Janall, claim to be the new consort? I don't remember whether anyone else except her has stated it.
Fool - Banaschar



Furthermore, I think there is a passage in tBH or RG (can't confirm since I don't currently have to the book) that discusses the relationship of the "higher" (at least King, Queen, Magi and Knight) and "lower" positions within each house and how that affects how permanent the position is.

[Ceda Cicero]

Is it a valid assumption to call Agayla the Weaver of High House Life? I think there's lots of evidence in her brief appearances in Stonewielder. I know the topic says spoilers for the whole series, but I figure it's better to be safe than sorry where SW is concerned at this time, so I'll tag this:

Spoiler

Agayla shows a lot of affinity with T'riss, to the point where T'riss insists on addressing her more as a peer and advisor than a subject or worshiper. Further, the Queen of Dreams actually refers to her as "Weaver" about 3-4 separate times. She could just be referring to Agayla's propensity for using her weave as a tool of Divination, but then that same propensity could very well be what earned her that slot in the House.

[nacht]

Siergiej, on 27 January 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:

Mortal sword, as the name suggests, is mortal. Therefore, has nothing to do with the Knight or Champion positions (hi Rake, hi Osric!). Also, I don't think there is any direct connection, between religious titles (destriant, shield anvil, mortal sword) and the Deck of Dragon.

The Deck (like in Tarot) is used to divine the future by adepts like Fiddler (and feather Witch with the Tiles). A lot of the "god's" actions are actually implemented by the mortals (especially the ones who have been invested with the god's power). So it feels like there should be some kind of link.

For example, Pust is the Magi but it feels like he has "Destraint" type powers.

[D'rek]

ShadowRaven, on 27 January 2011 - 02:48 PM, said:

I might be wrong about some of these and I'm not sure which are "permanent" holders or just holding the position for the moment, but here are some additions:

House of Life

King - Brys Beddict
Herald - Ublala Pung


House of Death

King - Bridgeburners are hinted at having taken the position after Hood's death, although they are also the Guardians of the Dead in the House of War
Mason - Wasn't it confirmed as Hedge in DoD?
Virgin - Dunsparrow, but I think Sinn was also hinted to occupy this position at some point?


House of Dark

Queen - As D'rek said, Mother Dark is the obvious choice, Fid's reading in DoD appointed Sandalath Drukorlat into this position, but there's also the unoccupied position of Wife in there so who knows...
Consort - We haven't seen it as a card but Draconus was referred to as the Consort of Darkness in TtH/DoD a couple of times (although that could've just been an honorific when he lived among the Andii getting it on with Mother Dark)


House of Chains

Consort - Didn't the former empress of Lether, Janall, claim to be the new consort? I don't remember whether anyone else except her has stated it.
Fool - Banaschar



Furthermore, I think there is a passage in tBH or RG (can't confirm since I don't currently have to the book) that discusses the relationship of the "higher" (at least King, Queen, Magi and Knight) and "lower" positions within each house and how that affects how permanent the position is.

Most of these you've said above are just what cards people got in a certain reading. You can go about tossing cards at people all day, it doesn't give them actual positions in the pantheon. If used properly, the Deck just uses the nature of pantheonic positions to reflect on what a person is going to do or is like, themselves.

I mean seriously, you think Banaschar is the Fool in Chains because he helped the Errant? It's just the only Fool of ____ card in the Deck, so it is showing how he is being a Fool. Unless you really think the Errant is the Crippled God in disguise...


So, let's all remember here folks: CARD GOTTEN IN A DECK READING != PANTHEONIC POSITION

Furthermore, using a random title does not magically create a pantheonic position, either. Draconus can call himself the Consort of Dark all he wants. He's also called the Suzerain of Night and he probably makes a great cheesecake so I'm calling him Baker of High House Cake right now. It doesn't mean those are actual established pantheonic positions, they're just titles that he or someone else made up (this guy's banging Mother Dark, let's call him Consort of Dark), etc.

As for the "higher" and "lower" positions, that all just goes into that the rulers of the High Houses can do whatever they want with their Houses. If Hood wants to flip positions around and have multiple Soldiers, he can do it. If Shadowthrone wants to appoint every worshipper he has Queen of Dark, he can. Since they're pretty much just titles and we've no knowledge of particular initiation rites, there's nothing holding ST back from doing so. It wouldn't change anything but the lingo, anyways.

Ciceronian, on 27 January 2011 - 04:03 PM, said:

Is it a valid assumption to call Agayla the Weaver of High House Life? I think there's lots of evidence in her brief appearances in Stonewielder. I know the topic says spoilers for the whole series, but I figure it's better to be safe than sorry where SW is concerned at this time, so I'll tag this:

Spoiler

Agayla shows a lot of affinity with T'riss, to the point where T'riss insists on addressing her more as a peer and advisor than a subject or worshiper. Further, the Queen of Dreams actually refers to her as "Weaver" about 3-4 separate times. She could just be referring to Agayla's propensity for using her weave as a tool of Divination, but then that same propensity could very well be what earned her that slot in the House.

For all we know, though, T'riss has dozens of high-level adherents who weave (because that's a particular method of divination?) and are on a pretty personal basis. It may just be how the QoD operates. Just like Draconus above, calling someone something with capital letters doesn't make them have a pantheonic position.

[Ceda Cicero]

D, on 27 January 2011 - 07:51 PM, said:

ShadowRaven, on 27 January 2011 - 02:48 PM, said:

I might be wrong about some of these and I'm not sure which are "permanent" holders or just holding the position for the moment, but here are some additions:

House of Life

King - Brys Beddict
Herald - Ublala Pung


House of Death

King - Bridgeburners are hinted at having taken the position after Hood's death, although they are also the Guardians of the Dead in the House of War
Mason - Wasn't it confirmed as Hedge in DoD?
Virgin - Dunsparrow, but I think Sinn was also hinted to occupy this position at some point?


House of Dark

Queen - As D'rek said, Mother Dark is the obvious choice, Fid's reading in DoD appointed Sandalath Drukorlat into this position, but there's also the unoccupied position of Wife in there so who knows...
Consort - We haven't seen it as a card but Draconus was referred to as the Consort of Darkness in TtH/DoD a couple of times (although that could've just been an honorific when he lived among the Andii getting it on with Mother Dark)


House of Chains

Consort - Didn't the former empress of Lether, Janall, claim to be the new consort? I don't remember whether anyone else except her has stated it.
Fool - Banaschar



Furthermore, I think there is a passage in tBH or RG (can't confirm since I don't currently have to the book) that discusses the relationship of the "higher" (at least King, Queen, Magi and Knight) and "lower" positions within each house and how that affects how permanent the position is.

Most of these you've said above are just what cards people got in a certain reading. You can go about tossing cards at people all day, it doesn't give them actual positions in the pantheon. If used properly, the Deck just uses the nature of pantheonic positions to reflect on what a person is going to do or is like, themselves.

I mean seriously, you think Banaschar is the Fool in Chains because he helped the Errant? It's just the only Fool of ____ card in the Deck, so it is showing how he is being a Fool. Unless you really think the Errant is the Crippled God in disguise...


So, let's all remember here folks: CARD GOTTEN IN A DECK READING != PANTHEONIC POSITION

Furthermore, using a random title does not magically create a pantheonic position, either. Draconus can call himself the Consort of Dark all he wants. He's also called the Suzerain of Night and he probably makes a great cheesecake so I'm calling him Baker of High House Cake right now. It doesn't mean those are actual established pantheonic positions, they're just titles that he or someone else made up (this guy's banging Mother Dark, let's call him Consort of Dark), etc.

As for the "higher" and "lower" positions, that all just goes into that the rulers of the High Houses can do whatever they want with their Houses. If Hood wants to flip positions around and have multiple Soldiers, he can do it. If Shadowthrone wants to appoint every worshipper he has Queen of Dark, he can. Since they're pretty much just titles and we've no knowledge of particular initiation rites, there's nothing holding ST back from doing so. It wouldn't change anything but the lingo, anyways.

Ciceronian, on 27 January 2011 - 04:03 PM, said:

Is it a valid assumption to call Agayla the Weaver of High House Life? I think there's lots of evidence in her brief appearances in Stonewielder. I know the topic says spoilers for the whole series, but I figure it's better to be safe than sorry where SW is concerned at this time, so I'll tag this:

Spoiler

Agayla shows a lot of affinity with T'riss, to the point where T'riss insists on addressing her more as a peer and advisor than a subject or worshiper. Further, the Queen of Dreams actually refers to her as "Weaver" about 3-4 separate times. She could just be referring to Agayla's propensity for using her weave as a tool of Divination, but then that same propensity could very well be what earned her that slot in the House.

For all we know, though, T'riss has dozens of high-level adherents who weave (because that's a particular method of divination?) and are on a pretty personal basis. It may just be how the QoD operates. Just like Draconus above, calling someone something with capital letters doesn't make them have a pantheonic position.

You're absolutely right on Agayla.

On the subject of Janall and Consort of Chains though, isn't there a bit in RG where she's alone in her room reflecting on how she actually is in league with the Crippled God and serves as his Consort now? Someone with better quote fu might want to check it out - I may be making stuff up. But I seem to recall it vaguely.

Edit: I did find it, but don't have time to jam it out on the keyboard. Pages 126-128 in the UK Bantam Press edition. Janall talks with Nisall and lays claim to the title of Queen of Chains multiple times. One might well presume she's mad, but after Nisall leaves she is referred to in the narrative as "Janall, Queen of High House Chains," just before she goes on to have a chat with the Crippled God himself. So it's either a deception of the Crippled God, just madness and delusion on Janall's part, or she does - for a time at least - occupy the position.

This post has been edited by Ciceronian: 27 January 2011 - 08:40 PM

[nacht]

Quote

DECK READING != PANTHEONIC POSITION

This makes sense. So the deck has no real significant except as a divination tool, where each card can point to a different person depending on their role in the events at that particular time.

This explains why Tavore pushes Fiddler for a reading. It help her forumulate some strategy.

[Blueiron]

Am I right in thinking that, as of DoD, there is "Consort of Darkness" card?

[HoosierDaddy]

Consort of Dark/Suzerain of Dark/King of Night stuff gets into Darujhistan also being a card in the Deck. Though, I tend to think of Draconus card' popping up in RotCG more akin to Knight of Shadow randomly making it's way into T'amber's Deck in The Bonehunters. I.e., an emergence or reemergence of a power once present, e.g. House of Chains and House of Shadow.

[Abyss]

Quote

But if you lay out the Deck on another continent as him, the Knight of Dark card could just as easily represent some random human who is doing or will soon do some actions that the Knight of Dark card represents symbolically.

^this. THIS.
REMEMBER THIS.

nacht, on 26 January 2011 - 09:03 PM, said:

...Do you think each house might be tied to by a "pure" dragon (it is after all a deck of dragons)

Nope. But according to TB each warren is.
Mostly.

Siergiej, on 27 January 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:

Mortal sword, as the name suggests, is mortal. Therefore, has nothing to do with the Knight or Champion positions (hi Rake, hi Osric!). Also, I don't think there is any direct connection, between religious titles (destriant, shield anvil, mortal sword) and the Deck of Dragon.

Nope. The titles are flexible and can refer to the same things or different things altogether.

Karsa is at various points the mortal sword, champion and knight of both the House of Chains and the Crippled God.

Brys was at various points the Champion or Mortal Sword of all Tiste, and almost the Mortal Sword of the Errant even tho' he was dead at the time.

Clip was referred to as the Mortal Sword of Rake, who was himself the Knight of High House Dark.

Toc is the Mortal Sword of Togg and the Herald of Death at the same time.


So all together now...

Quote

DECK READING != PANTHEONIC POSITION

- Abyss, ...who notes Rhulad was also the Fool of the House of Chains at least once...

[nacht]

So, who would have guessed that Tavore was playing cards with T'amber during their alone time. I thought they were fencing.

[Sinisdar Toste]

nacht, on 28 January 2011 - 01:20 AM, said:

So, who would have guessed that Tavore was playing cards with T'amber during their alone time. I thought they were fencing.

i believe the feminine form is 'scissoring'