[Siergiej]

Ok, I admit that I am only about one third through Return of the Crimson Guard, so maybe some fundamental truth will shine on me 'n stuff, but still, I find it quite confusing.

Don't You think that Claw is totally lame? Really, they are feared around the Empire, so they are the supposed to be some badass assasin guild hammering everything on Laseen's way but... did they managed to do anything right so far? Maybe I am missing something, but just take a look at their biggest missions:

- Kill Kellanved and Dancer when they come back to Malaz: FAILED. Despite knowing exact time and place, they let them ascend. Claws get slaughtered on the way. Totally lame. What a bunch of losers.
- Kill the Old Guard (not sure if it's exact english name, I mean Kellanved's loyalists): FAILED BEYOND IMAGINATION. They didn't get no one important. I can understand that some awesome,cool, loved by soldiers characters could make it through Laseen's operations but... everyone? Choss - alive. Amaron - alive. Urko - alive. Cartheron - alive, despite having at least 3 encounters with Claw. Idiots. Dassem - alive, ascended, descended, traveled the world around since the betrayal at Y'Ghatan.
- Kill Whiskeyjack. CAN'T FIND WORDS TO DESCRIBE THE LEVEL OF FAIL. They somehow managed to wipe out the most elite army unit in the process, and WJ wasn't even wounded. Jesus.
- Kill Sha'ik. FAILED. Pearl is an idiot. But on the other hand, it was hard to expect someone with bolt in his forehead to be still active. That's one of Claw's smallest failures.
- Kill Kalam. FAILED TWICE. Two traps. Both in the same city, simply crowded with Claws. It looks like taking out a former member of their ranks equipped with otataral dagger is too much for 300 trained assasins. With a little help from Apsalar they end up being crushed, hammered, owned and shadowraped. Lame. Hundreds of Claws die in the process. Kalam's whereabout remain unknown.

Maybe I am overreacting, but... isn't Claw a bit disappointing? At the moment it looks a bit like that: You want to be sure, that the job won't be done? Just let Claw try.

[ansible]

Pretty much everyone you mentioned the Claw failing against is a total badass. Not surprising that a few Imperial assassins couldn't take down individuals who eventually became ascendants and gods...

[Abyss]

Actually, you're picking out specific instances of fail against exceptional individuals.

There is a reason people fear the Claw and it goes to a long history of sneaking into places, killing everyone of power, magic, political or otherwise, and then opening the doors for the Malazan army. There are any number of references to this happening in 7C and Genabackis. in fact, GotM tells us that even with Rake on their side, the Pale mage cadre ran for it because the Claw were in the city doing their thing.

Altho admittedly a lot of that history relates to Dancer's Talon, Laseen basically hung onto the Empire because she had the Claw. No super uber old guard, no Imass legions, no massive Mage batallions and healer squads - just a fairly large group of well trained assassins and mage-assassins who were generally feared.

Dancer created the Talon which led to the Claw. Kellanved is Kellanved. Dassem and Kalam are two of the best killers/warriors in ever. These are not 'mere' targets. The Old Guard mostly took themselves out of the fight. And as far as we know most of the attempts to get rid of Whiskeyjack were indirect suicide missions, not outright assassination attempts that the BBs would have handled anyways.

So sure, they are the Redshirts/Stormtroopers of the series some of the time, but that's because they were up against someone bigger and badder.

- Abyss, Fingernail.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

The claws are assassins. They hit from shadows and go.Their purpose is scare ordinary citizens shitless. They aren't expected to fight all quarters.

Regarding Kalam it's mentioned many times that magic dulled their abilities and nevertheless Kalam is mauled pretty badly both times.

Regarding Shaik, they had nothing to do with her. Those were the Red Blades.

Regarding Old Guard, I thought the idea was that they were never really meant to kill them and anyway Dancer is the greatest assassin to live, Dassem the greatest swordsman, Urko kills Avowed with one punch. They aren't exactly ordinary people.

[Siergiej]

Quote

Not surprising that a few Imperial assassins couldn't take down individuals who eventually became ascendants and gods...

I assume what You really wanted to write in the plac of "a few" was "few hundeds"

And of couse they were special individuals. Who do You think Imperial assassins would be sent to kill? That's their job to eliminate dangerous people, not some casual civilians.And as for Old Guard... they started a rebelion in RotCG. Well done Claw! As for Sha'ik - Pearl, anyone? As for Kalam... mauled pretty badly? Well that's simply fucking intimidating, especially when You consider what he did to them. Really.

[MTS]

The Claw didn't try and kill Whiskeyjack, all orders concerning him were either from Surly or Tayschrenn, and they were not involved directly, so that example isn't really noteworthy.

Regarding Kalam, Pearl didn't want to kill him. He wanted Kalam to wash up on Malaz, and he wanted to hunt Kalam, to display dominance. They toyed with him, and their failure there was one of overconfidence in facing one of the best assassins since Dancer only two or so Hands at a time.

As for the others:
Amaron - commander of the Talons
Choss - High Fist
Urko - fells Avowed with a single blow
Cartheron Crust - insanely cunning and smart
I can't be bothered listing any more, but you get the point.

They manage to capture Janul, another Old Guard High Fist, and reportedly kill many others. It's only the legendary figures of the Empire that manage to escape, and I doubt there were hundreds looking for them and fighting them.

[Aptorian]

I think one of the best examples of Claws being dangerous motherfuckers is when Korbolo Dom sends a bunch of his personal killers into Dryjnas warren to kill her. That was pretty scary, because if you could do that to Dryjna, then you could do that to any God... if they were sufficiently distracted of course, otherwise I think you should probably just kill yourself.

[D'rek]

Jenisapt Rul, on 19 January 2011 - 07:33 PM, said:

I think one of the best examples of Claws being dangerous motherfuckers is when Korbolo Dom sends a bunch of his personal killers into Dryjnas warren to kill her. That was pretty scary, because if you could do that to Dryjna, then you could do that to any God... if they were sufficiently distracted of course, otherwise I think you should probably just kill yourself.

Well, those were a particular branch of Talons, not Claws, but NoK showed us another bunch of Talons (the Shadow cultists) and the Claw were their equal in the fighting there.

[Aptorian]

Yeah, I remember them being Talons, but for the point of the argument, they are apples and... apples. Same profession and training.

[Ulrik]

Siergiej, on 19 January 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:

Quote

Not surprising that a few Imperial assassins couldn't take down individuals who eventually became ascendants and gods...

I assume what You really wanted to write in the plac of "a few" was "few hundeds"

And of couse they were special individuals. Who do You think Imperial assassins would be sent to kill? That's their job to eliminate dangerous people, not some casual civilians.And as for Old Guard... they started a rebelion in RotCG. Well done Claw! As for Sha'ik - Pearl, anyone? As for Kalam... mauled pretty badly? Well that's simply fucking intimidating, especially when You consider what he did to them. Really.

Well, you are still repeating same...that Claw some times failed against most skilled targets. And intentionally you put aside whole lore that is told on the background. They got some Old Guard. They almost got Dassem, without Temper intervention, Desseambrae would be as good as dead. You missed dozens of their operations during cleaning of noble families. Controlling cities. Unmentioned Claws in regular army eliminating opponents.


If I put it your way, Whiskeyjack really sucks. He lost his chance to change/ lead Empire. He lost most of his BBs. He missed targwt in unfinished bussines in Darujhistan, not mention killing Adjunct and surviving Rake. He chose insufficient guards for Silverfox, didnt protect Korlat, stubbornly refused heal his leg and died because of it.

Or was it simply because even such excellent man was torn between much stronger mortal, ascendant and god powers - and was overwhelmed by them? You have to see complete picture.

[Siergiej]

He didn't lose his chance to rule the Empire, because he didn't even really consider it. WJ doesn't want to be the Emperor. The rest is actually true. He is awesome character, portrayed as a brave man and inspiring leader, but not much beyond that, really. Especialli the leg part is accurate.

Quote

Or was it simply because even such excellent man was torn between much stronger mortal, ascendant and god powers - and was overwhelmed by them?

Yeah, right, he was stubborn and didn't let anyone heal him because he was torn between ascendants. Perfectly logical.

Quote

The Claw didn't try and kill Whiskeyjack, all orders concerning him were either from Surly or Tayschrenn, and they were not involved directly, so that example isn't really noteworthy.

Regarding Kalam, Pearl didn't want to kill him. He wanted Kalam to wash up on Malaz, and he wanted to hunt Kalam, to display dominance. They toyed with him, and their failure there was one of overconfidence in facing one of the best assassins since Dancer only two or so Hands at a time.

Don't have the exact quote now (I may look for it tomorrow if I don't forget), but I am nearly sure that somewhere in MoI WJ realizes that betraying BB's was targeted at him. It must have been during some dialogue with Dujek.
As for Kalam... well, what You wrote is a perfect definition of 100% fail. They toyed with the most dangerous non-ascendant assasin on Wu, and got punished for this. Lame and stupid, isn't it? But not nearly as idiotic as getting bitchslapped again in Malaz while having everything set up, in the end of Bonehunters. In my opinion the Claw seemed insanely weak during that part.

Quote

As for the others:
Amaron - commander of the Talons
Choss - High Fist
Urko - fells Avowed with a single blow
Cartheron Crust - insanely cunning and smart
I can't be bothered listing any more, but you get the point.

Not really, I don't. Seriously, from those You listed only Amaron shouldn't be a piece of cake for trained murderers, as he is the only one they couldn't surprise with anything special. But seriously, since when do you get some assasination resistance for being smart or being higly ranked officer? It's not like high fists are invincible or something. And having rocket launchers in Your arms also won't help You when You get backstabbed and poisoned with some grim paralt shit. And there is also Toc the Older, whom I forgot to mention earlier.

Dassem - okay, supersoldier, superswordsman, superbadass, bla, blah, blah. But they actually knocked him out and... didn't finish the job. Why? Who knows. My guess: they suck.

But You reminded me of one important mission they succeeded in. Eliminating Talons. Geez, Talons must have been pretty damn weak by the way

Yep, I am overreacting a little bit. But I am still disappointed with Claw. Disappointed as hell.

[ansible]

Quote

Don't have the exact quote now (I may look for it tomorrow if I don't forget), but I am nearly sure that somewhere in MoI WJ realizes that betraying BB's was targeted at him. It must have been during some dialogue with Dujek.

This might not be the one you mean, but:

Memories of Ice, p. 597, Tor TPB said:

'Virtually wiping out the Bridgeburners at Pale--'

'Was an accident and while you didn't know it at the time, you know it now. Tayschrenn ordered them to remain in the tunnels because he thought it was the safest place. The safest.'

'Seemed more like someone wanted us to be a collateral fatality,' Whiskeyjack said. No, not us. Me. Damn you, Dujek, you lead me to suspect you knew more of that than I'd hoped. Beru fend, I hope I'm wrong... 'And with what happened at Darujhistan--

'What happened at Darujhistan was a mess. Miscommunication on all sides. It was too soon after the Siege of Pale - too soon for all of us.'

'So I wasn't the only one rattled, then.'

'At Pale? No. Hood take us, we all were. That battle didn't go as planned. Tayschrenn really believed he could take down Moon's Spawn - and force Rake into the open. And had he not been left virtually on his own in the attack, things might well have turned out differently. [...]'

And a few pages later:

Memories of Ice, p.599, Tor TPB said:

'Tayschrenn. He's been wanting to apologize to you. For what happened to the Bridgeburners.'

'He knows where to find me, Dujek.'

So this is a bit of a retcon from GotM; basically, if you believe Dujek, Laseen fucked up a few times and it seemed like she was out to get the Bridgeburners. But really, she was trying to do what was best for the Empire. It wasn't targeted at Whiskeyjack.

Also, I feel like you're overlooking one of the main themes of the series, which is old vs. new. Put another way, those who think they are badass (and they might really be badasses, or maybe they were once) are often put in their place by those who are even more badass and powerful. There are examples of this all over the series, and I think the Claw's slow erosion is one of them. Once they were a superior tactical force, assassinating nobles and rulers and becoming truly feared by not only the populace but also virtually every Imperial soldier. Then they became weak by relying on magic, Mallick Rel completely infiltrates them, Kalam rips through them, and then Apsalar finishes them off during a Shadow Dance that borders on ascension.

The Claw were once genuinely dangerous, but they've had their asses handed to them. If this disappoints you, I think many other things in this series will disappoint you as well.

[MTS]

*sigh* The point was they might not have been able to defeat a Hand of Claw one-on-one (apart from Urko and Dassem), but that these were the foremost leaders and strategists of the Empire, and they were so for a reason. They are very smart, and they were very powerful. They would have had supporters, and they would know how to disappear, and they succeeded. Can't be assassinated if your enemy has no clue where you are. Worked for Laseen, and it damn sure worked for Kellanved. So the Claw only failed in that they couldn't locate these people. I'd hardly call that a total fail. Even later they are still badass individuals that some nameless Claw can't expect to fuck with and win.

Quote

Don't have the exact quote now (I may look for it tomorrow if I don't forget), but I am nearly sure that somewhere in MoI WJ realizes that betraying BB's was targeted at him. It must have been during some dialogue with Dujek.

Yes, but the Claw weren't involved in that - Tayschrenn ordered them to mine the walls, and it was the sorcery that raged above that buried them alive. IIRC we have no evidence the Claw were anywhere near that mess.

Quote

Dassem - okay, supersoldier, superswordsman, superbadass, bla, blah, blah. But they actually knocked him out and... didn't finish the job. Why? Who knows. My guess: they suck.

They had two members of the Sword and a demi-god to deal with. As for finishing the job, Temper tried to stab him when he was unconscious and look what happened to him - he got thrown halfway across a room.

Quote

Yeah, right, he was stubborn and didn't let anyone heal him because he was torn between ascendants. Perfectly logical.

It is logical, actually. It's revealed in BH Hood had a hand in delaying the healing of Whiskeyjack's leg.

Quote

with a little help from Apsalar they end up being crushed

Oh sure, let's expect the Claw to stand up to what is essentially their god. That's not fail, that's just bad luck.

[L'oric]

Siergiej, on 19 January 2011 - 05:38 PM, said:

Ok, I admit that I am only about one third through Return of the Crimson Guard, so maybe some fundamental truth will shine on me 'n stuff, but still, I find it quite confusing.

Don't You think that Claw is totally lame? Really, they are feared around the Empire, so they are the supposed to be some badass assasin guild hammering everything on Laseen's way but... did they managed to do anything right so far? Maybe I am missing something, but just take a look at their biggest missions:


Maybe I am overreacting, but... isn't Claw a bit disappointing? At the moment it looks a bit like that: You want to be sure, that the job won't be done? Just let Claw try.

First let me point out that the Claw became famous because Surly is the one doing the assasinations.

Possum, Topper, and then Kalam as well were the ones conducting the assasinations. Pearl is I'm pretty sure the son of Phaed who is only a few generations removed from Mother Dark, and he wasn't ever considered on par with the elite Claw of the Empire's heyday. Also remember that some assassinations were carried out by Dancer.

Then let me point out that every part of the Malazan Army is less than it used to be. The first Sword never retreated and certainly never lost a battle. Ever. The mage cadres if they didn't have a high mage like Nightchill and Belludan (Sister of Cold Nights an Elder Goddess and her lover), they had mages like Tattersail leading mages that might as well have been High Mages themselves.

Second as everyone else pointed out look who they are trying to kill, and we really don't know how hard they went after some of the old guard since some of them had previosuly probably sworn loyalty to Surly before she became empress.

Kellanved, Dancer, and Dassem Ultor would be impossible for a hand to kill, and since they only practice and train as a hand they would not be ready or able to kill them with some sort of tactic where all 300 of them attack at the same time. Even if they did this is Kallenved, Dancer, and Dassen Ultor all three of them could probably defeat an army and invite a convergence just because they were doing it.

Spoiler

Yes the Claw could be better, but we see in RotCG that there is hope. I don't know if mention of the Raggedy Man in the Imperial Warren by name is a spoiler since the book has been out for such a long time, but he is clearly one of the best Assassins left alive by the end of the book if not the best IMO.

Sincerely

This post has been edited by L'oric: 20 January 2011 - 08:44 AM

[The Seguleh 46th]

L, on 20 January 2011 - 08:39 AM, said:

Siergiej, on 19 January 2011 - 05:38 PM, said:

Ok, I admit that I am only about one third through Return of the Crimson Guard, so maybe some fundamental truth will shine on me 'n stuff, but still, I find it quite confusing.

Don't You think that Claw is totally lame? Really, they are feared around the Empire, so they are the supposed to be some badass assasin guild hammering everything on Laseen's way but... did they managed to do anything right so far? Maybe I am missing something, but just take a look at their biggest missions:


Maybe I am overreacting, but... isn't Claw a bit disappointing? At the moment it looks a bit like that: You want to be sure, that the job won't be done? Just let Claw try.

First let me point out that the Claw became famous because Surly is the one doing the assasinations.

Possum, Topper, and then Kalam as well were the ones conducting the assasinations. Pearl is I'm pretty sure the son of Phaed who is only a few generations removed from Mother Dark, and he wasn't ever considered on par with the elite Claw of the Empire's heyday. Also remember that some assassinations were carried out by Dancer.

Then let me point out that every part of the Malazan Army is less than it used to be. The first Sword never retreated and certainly never lost a battle. Ever. The mage cadres if they didn't have a high mage like Nightchill and Belludan (Sister of Cold Nights an Elder Goddess and her lover), they had mages like Tattersail leading mages that might as well have been High Mages themselves.

Second as everyone else pointed out look who they are trying to kill, and we really don't know how hard they went after some of the old guard since some of them had previosuly probably sworn loyalty to Surly before she became empress.

Kellanved, Dancer, and Dassem Ultor would be impossible for a hand to kill, and since they only practice and train as a hand they would not be ready or able to kill them with some sort of tactic where all 300 of them attack at the same time. Even if they did this is Kallenved, Dancer, and Dassen Ultor all three of them could probably defeat an army and invite a convergence just because they were doing it.

Spoiler

Yes the Claw could be better, but we see in RotCG that there is hope. I don't know if mention of the Raggedy Man in the Imperial Warren by name is a spoiler since the book has been out for such a long time, but he is clearly one of the best Assassins left alive by the end of the book if not the best IMO.

Sincerely

Basically wanna reiterate all the points everyone is making here. The Claw are eroding, but they are still the freaking Claw! As far as i know, not one of the Old Guard were targeted for assassination, they just simply chose to vanish. The Claw may seem weaker now, sure, and my opinion is that it is simply a consequence of not evolving. What worked then does not work now. The Malaz citizentry might be getting desensitized to them, and its repeatedly said (i think anyways...) that recruits aren't what they used to be since before Surly became Laseen. Plus, regular soldiers have grenades, a few folks have Otataral, and everyone owns a crossbow! Be like a 10th degree ninja (is that even a real thing? Hehe!) today walking into a crowded gun range with a katana and some throwing stars and waging battle! The Claw themselves are also used to relying on too much of what worked before (ie, Mockra, Shadow, etc....), but seem to neglect alot of what made them so damn dangerous in the first place. What's the motto here? Adapt to change or go by the wayside? Maybe not. I don't know. Just simply stating over and over that the Claw are lame and suck and blah, blah, MTV, without concrete support just doesn't work for me.

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 21 January 2011 - 06:13 AM

[Abyss]

Just looking at the books up to RCG...

GotM - Claw infiltrate Pale, send the Mage cadre running for their lives.

DG - Pearl, a Claw, basically runs his own support mission for the Chain of Dogs, ambushes Kalam.

MoI - No Claw.

HoC - Pearl again, infiltrates the Whirlwind camp, takes out at least one High Mage.

NoK - The Claw wipes out the Shadow Cult/Talon. Shoots Dassem in the middle of a battle.

TB - the Claw that was stalking Banaschar takes out two veterans before Hellian gets the drop on him, and well... it's Hellian. She's unstoppable.

RG - DeClaw'd.

RCG - Moss, (possibly) ex Claw, fights off Ryllandaras. By himself.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Wait, wait, when the hell does Moss fight Rylllandaras? I remeber just Rell and then the party at the end fighting Ryllandaras in RotCG

[Sinisdar Toste]

yeah, i'm blanking on this... wasn't it rell who stood down ryl by himself?

[Abyss]

Sinisdar Toste, on 21 January 2011 - 05:42 PM, said:

yeah, i'm blanking on this... wasn't it rell who stood down ryl by himself?

Rell did, more than once iirc, but earlier in the book Moss shows up all torn to fuck from covering a Loyalist retreat from Ryllandaras.

amazon.com's look inside feature isn't helping but it's around p452ish, about where Rylandaras eats the wounded.

[HiddenOne]

L, on 20 January 2011 - 08:39 AM, said:

Pearl is I'm pretty sure the son of Phaed who is only a few generations removed from Mother Dark,

Where did you get this idea? I'm interested in some quote-fu