[Roldom]

why dont they rule the world? before they allied with the malazans they were the only guys with explosives, they have air superiority, and there boats are pretty badass, the black moranth foot soliders are well disciplined, not to mention how good the gold are supposed to be


the only thing they seem to be missing is mage support

so why help the malazans create an empire? why not just make one for the moranth?

[HoosierDaddy]

Weren't they considered an introverted society (as a result of their search for land) in MoI or GotM when they are discussed more? Combine that with a stratification system based on each groups merits, they might be more worried about competing with each others' goals.

[T'renn]

 Roldom, on 09 January 2011 - 06:52 AM, said:

why dont they rule the world? before they allied with the malazans they were the only guys with explosives, they have air superiority, and there boats are pretty badass, the black moranth foot soliders are well disciplined, not to mention how good the gold are supposed to be


the only thing they seem to be missing is mage support

so why help the malazans create an empire? why not just make one for the moranth?

They do have mage support in the form of the Silver Moranth, but thus far we haven't seen them in the field.

[MTS]

HD is right, the Moranth aren't interested in empire. They're a clan-based society, not an expansionist power. Also, since the Moranth don't exist as a united people and are constantly jostling for supremacy amongst themselves, if any Moranth were to try and establish an empire it would either be under the auspices of a single clan, and thus rather limited in its versatility (well, supposing no Genghis Khan-esque uniting figure). What is great about the Moranth alliance is that the Empire is able to utilise all the different talents of the Moranth as a whole, such as munitions, Quorls, infantry from the Black and Gold and ships from the Blue. We don't know how this alliance came about, but it is one of mutual benefit nonetheless. The Moranth help the military since they got their retribution against the residents of Pale (among other things, I'm sure).
From GotM:

Quote

The alliance between the Moranth and the Empire had changed the face of Imperial war. The Malazan tactics here on Genabackis had twisted into a new shape, one increasingly dependent on transport by air of both soldiers and supplies. Such dependency was dangerous, as far as Whiskeyjack was concerned. We know so little about these Moranth - no one has ever seen their cities in the forest. I can't even tell their sex.
Most scholars held that they were true humans, but there was no way to tell - the Moranth collected their own dead from the battlefields. There would be trouble in the Empire if the Moranth ever exercised a thirst for power. From what he had heard, however, the various colour actions among them marked an ever-changing hierarchy, and the rivalry and competition remained at a fanatical pitch.

Also, the Moranth don't use munitions anymore, they are export items only.

This post has been edited by MTS: 09 January 2011 - 08:17 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Gold used munitions at the Battle of Li Heng didn't they?

[Aptorian]

 MTS, on 09 January 2011 - 08:11 AM, said:

Also, the Moranth don't use munitions anymore, they are export items only.

Where do you have this from?

The Black Moranth use munitions in SW. In RCG there's an entire army of them armed with munitions.

[nacht]

I think they might be quite limited in number and therefore not really able to act as occupiers over large areas of land.

[T'renn]

The Moranth Alliance was negotiated at the forest of cloud with on the Imperial side of the Negotiations Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, a nobleborn dignitary named Aragan and the T'lan Imass First Sword Onos T'oolan.

It is indeed stated that following the defeat of 5 legions of Moranth Gold by the Crimson Guard on Northern Genabackis, the Moranth Silver (mages) became dominant. Since Moranth Munitions were antimage weaponry among the moranth, they have made it an export product only.

[MTS]

 Jenisapt Rul, on 09 January 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

 MTS, on 09 January 2011 - 08:11 AM, said:

Also, the Moranth don't use munitions anymore, they are export items only.

Where do you have this from?

The Black Moranth use munitions in SW. In RCG there's an entire army of them armed with munitions.

*shrugs* Interview from SE:

Quote

"Originally, before the dominance of the Silver caste among the Moranth, the munitions existed to counter sorcery, or, rather, to kill sorcerors. Now, since the Silver are mages, the munitions are strictly export items only, and it seems supply is drying up....(Q and A with wotmania (2003)

I can't recall them using munitions in MoI or GotM. I'm fairly sure they didn't carpet-bomb Coral because of the condors. Interview was a long time ago though, and evidence is different author.

@nacht, the Malazan Empire started on a small island off Quon Tali. They had very small numbers, yet now they own the largest empire in the world. Solution for that problem is allowing the locals to govern themselves within the empire. That way you don't need numbers, only a happy population, gentle yoke and effective suppression of dissent a la the Claw.

This post has been edited by MTS: 09 January 2011 - 11:41 AM

[tiam]

 nacht, on 09 January 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

I think they might be quite limited in number and therefore not really able to act as occupiers over large areas of land.

We have no idea how many Moranth there are. They live in a fragment of KE so there could literally be over a million of them. As MTS quote fu has shown their introverted society are far more concerned with getting one over on other houses 'colours' of Moranth than expanding. In MTS quote it shows that if they ever did want to expand thered be 'trouble in the Empire'.

[D'rek]

 tiam, on 09 January 2011 - 12:12 PM, said:

 nacht, on 09 January 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

I think they might be quite limited in number and therefore not really able to act as occupiers over large areas of land.

We have no idea how many Moranth there are. They live in a fragment of KE so there could literally be over a million of them. As MTS quote fu has shown their introverted society are far more concerned with getting one over on other houses 'colours' of Moranth than expanding. In MTS quote it shows that if they ever did want to expand thered be 'trouble in the Empire'.

I agree with Nacht, saying the Moranth could conquer the world (or a large area anyway) would be like saying the Stormguard could, or the Grey Swords, etc. When used in direct combat, they've always been a few companies or at most a single legion assisting much larger Malazan forces, the Moranth just don't seem to have the numbers to match. That's not an issue in itself, because you have to start somewhere, but the Moranth wouldn't adopt their newly conquered populaces into their own society - the humans of Pale, Darujhistan or wherever cannot become Moranth and get the same training as Moranth, so the amount of elite military forces they can deploy cannot increase (unlike the Malazans who incorporate people from their conquered territories into their own army with superb training, not just using them as auxiliaries).

And they don't live in a fragment of KE, they live in Cloud Forest.

As for the munitions, they may be "export only" products now but the Moranth can still use them outside of Cloud Forest (ie once they've been exported). I bet the Silver just doesn't like them being nearby in the Forest.

[tiam]

 D, on 09 January 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

 tiam, on 09 January 2011 - 12:12 PM, said:

 nacht, on 09 January 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

I think they might be quite limited in number and therefore not really able to act as occupiers over large areas of land.

We have no idea how many Moranth there are. They live in a fragment of KE so there could literally be over a million of them. As MTS quote fu has shown their introverted society are far more concerned with getting one over on other houses 'colours' of Moranth than expanding. In MTS quote it shows that if they ever did want to expand thered be 'trouble in the Empire'.

I agree with Nacht, saying the Moranth could conquer the world (or a large area anyway) would be like saying the Stormguard could, or the Grey Swords, etc. When used in direct combat, they've always been a few companies or at most a single legion assisting much larger Malazan forces, the Moranth just don't seem to have the numbers to match. That's not an issue in itself, because you have to start somewhere, but the Moranth wouldn't adopt their newly conquered populaces into their own society - the humans of Pale, Darujhistan or wherever cannot become Moranth and get the same training as Moranth, so the amount of elite military forces they can deploy cannot increase (unlike the Malazans who incorporate people from their conquered territories into their own army with superb training, not just using them as auxiliaries).

And they don't live in a fragment of KE, they live in Cloud Forest.

As for the munitions, they may be "export only" products now but the Moranth can still use them outside of Cloud Forest (ie once they've been exported). I bet the Silver just doesn't like them being nearby in the Forest.

I fail to see how the Grey Swords and the Storm guard are comparable to the Moranth. The Moranth are a race not an organisation. We have never seen Cloud Forest so speculating that they dont have the numbers based on the very limited viewpoints, usually confined to the Black Moranth, doesnt make sense. Im not suggesting that if the Moranth did combine forces and assaulted Genabackis they would be able to Im simply saying dismissing them on sheer speculation on their numbers seems odd.

The Moranth supplied to the Malazans could represent a token gesture or a large commitment of the military resources we simply dont know.

As for the idea of 'elite training' why not? Why couldnt an army of Pale or Darujhistan become Moranth? I dont believe they can but its perfectly possible given weve never seen one without its armour. Also the Moranth weve seen in SW , for example, use heavy infantry tactics. Why couldnt conquered humans be given the same training? From what weve seen its not too disimilar to the tactics employed by Malaz its just that Blue Moranth veterans fought newly recruited (for the most part) heavy infantry.

Your idea of the Malazans being able to defeat the Moranth on the principle of expanding elite manpower, whereas the Moranth would only be able to use them as auxiliaries makes little sense.

Edit- I thought Cloud Forest contained a fragment of KE? I havnt got the books with me atm so could have confused it with something else.

This post has been edited by tiam: 09 January 2011 - 05:24 PM

[masan's saddle]

With regards to the Blue Moranth, I am about 3/4's through SW and I have a question.

How do they climb the rigging, trim the yardarm, haul the mainsail, shiver me timbers etc etc, whilst encased in armour with stonking great helmets on their heads ?

It's a minor quibble I know, but have I missed something somewhere about them wearing blue linen ninja suits ?

I can't see how they can operate a sailing ship in full armour and helm, seems ridiculous to me.

[flea]

Interesting how little we really know about the Moranth. Perhaps they will be prominent in the darujhistan novel.

I also seem to recall that there is a fragment of KE in the vicinity.

[D'rek]

 tiam, on 09 January 2011 - 05:17 PM, said:

 D, on 09 January 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

 tiam, on 09 January 2011 - 12:12 PM, said:

 nacht, on 09 January 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

I think they might be quite limited in number and therefore not really able to act as occupiers over large areas of land.

We have no idea how many Moranth there are. They live in a fragment of KE so there could literally be over a million of them. As MTS quote fu has shown their introverted society are far more concerned with getting one over on other houses 'colours' of Moranth than expanding. In MTS quote it shows that if they ever did want to expand thered be 'trouble in the Empire'.

I agree with Nacht, saying the Moranth could conquer the world (or a large area anyway) would be like saying the Stormguard could, or the Grey Swords, etc. When used in direct combat, they've always been a few companies or at most a single legion assisting much larger Malazan forces, the Moranth just don't seem to have the numbers to match. That's not an issue in itself, because you have to start somewhere, but the Moranth wouldn't adopt their newly conquered populaces into their own society - the humans of Pale, Darujhistan or wherever cannot become Moranth and get the same training as Moranth, so the amount of elite military forces they can deploy cannot increase (unlike the Malazans who incorporate people from their conquered territories into their own army with superb training, not just using them as auxiliaries).

And they don't live in a fragment of KE, they live in Cloud Forest.

As for the munitions, they may be "export only" products now but the Moranth can still use them outside of Cloud Forest (ie once they've been exported). I bet the Silver just doesn't like them being nearby in the Forest.

I fail to see how the Grey Swords and the Storm guard are comparable to the Moranth. The Moranth are a race not an organisation. We have never seen Cloud Forest so speculating that they dont have the numbers based on the very limited viewpoints, usually confined to the Black Moranth, doesnt make sense. Im not suggesting that if the Moranth did combine forces and assaulted Genabackis they would be able to Im simply saying dismissing them on sheer speculation on their numbers seems odd.

The Moranth supplied to the Malazans could represent a token gesture or a large commitment of the military resources we simply dont know.

As for the idea of 'elite training' why not? Why couldnt an army of Pale or Darujhistan become Moranth? I dont believe they can but its perfectly possible given weve never seen one without its armour. Also the Moranth weve seen in SW , for example, use heavy infantry tactics. Why couldnt conquered humans be given the same training? From what weve seen its not too disimilar to the tactics employed by Malaz its just that Blue Moranth veterans fought newly recruited (for the most part) heavy infantry.

Your idea of the Malazans being able to defeat the Moranth on the principle of expanding elite manpower, whereas the Moranth would only be able to use them as auxiliaries makes little sense.

Edit- I thought Cloud Forest contained a fragment of KE? I havnt got the books with me atm so could have confused it with something else.

We've never seen Cloud Forest but unless they have mile-deep caverns or skyscrapers in there, they're still confined by the physical size of it in how much space they have for people and for food production to support their own populace. The Moranth Forest is miniscule compared to Lether or the Malazan Empire, so the total population should be a lot smaller. I'm saying they won't take in the populace of conquered regions because they're already exlcusive to themselves. If a Red Moranth is not trained and accepted in a company of Blue or Gold, then a non-Moranth has even less of a chance.

 flea, on 09 January 2011 - 07:00 PM, said:

Interesting how little we really know about the Moranth. Perhaps they will be prominent in the darujhistan novel.

I also seem to recall that there is a fragment of KE in the vicinity.

Well, maybe there is a fragment there then. I suppose it's all hearsay since no one's ever seen the supposed "cities" in the forest, but that still gives credence to the idea that they live in the forest in Wu and not in the KE fragment, so I'm still standing by a limited population theory.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 09 January 2011 - 07:14 PM

[flea]

I'm not disagreeing at all. We know very Little.

[amphibian]

 masan, on 09 January 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:

With regards to the Blue Moranth, I am about 3/4's through SW and I have a question.

How do they climb the rigging, trim the yardarm, haul the mainsail, shiver me timbers etc etc, whilst encased in armour with stonking great helmets on their heads ?

It's a minor quibble I know, but have I missed something somewhere about them wearing blue linen ninja suits ?

I can't see how they can operate a sailing ship in full armour and helm, seems ridiculous to me.

Well, if you recall Torvald's blue floaty cusser things, that might explain some of it.

The rest... is probably Erikson and ICE not knowing much about sailing.

[tiam]

 D, on 09 January 2011 - 07:09 PM, said:

 tiam, on 09 January 2011 - 05:17 PM, said:

 D, on 09 January 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

 tiam, on 09 January 2011 - 12:12 PM, said:

 nacht, on 09 January 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

I think they might be quite limited in number and therefore not really able to act as occupiers over large areas of land.

We have no idea how many Moranth there are. They live in a fragment of KE so there could literally be over a million of them. As MTS quote fu has shown their introverted society are far more concerned with getting one over on other houses 'colours' of Moranth than expanding. In MTS quote it shows that if they ever did want to expand thered be 'trouble in the Empire'.

I agree with Nacht, saying the Moranth could conquer the world (or a large area anyway) would be like saying the Stormguard could, or the Grey Swords, etc. When used in direct combat, they've always been a few companies or at most a single legion assisting much larger Malazan forces, the Moranth just don't seem to have the numbers to match. That's not an issue in itself, because you have to start somewhere, but the Moranth wouldn't adopt their newly conquered populaces into their own society - the humans of Pale, Darujhistan or wherever cannot become Moranth and get the same training as Moranth, so the amount of elite military forces they can deploy cannot increase (unlike the Malazans who incorporate people from their conquered territories into their own army with superb training, not just using them as auxiliaries).

And they don't live in a fragment of KE, they live in Cloud Forest.

As for the munitions, they may be "export only" products now but the Moranth can still use them outside of Cloud Forest (ie once they've been exported). I bet the Silver just doesn't like them being nearby in the Forest.

I fail to see how the Grey Swords and the Storm guard are comparable to the Moranth. The Moranth are a race not an organisation. We have never seen Cloud Forest so speculating that they dont have the numbers based on the very limited viewpoints, usually confined to the Black Moranth, doesnt make sense. Im not suggesting that if the Moranth did combine forces and assaulted Genabackis they would be able to Im simply saying dismissing them on sheer speculation on their numbers seems odd.

The Moranth supplied to the Malazans could represent a token gesture or a large commitment of the military resources we simply dont know.

As for the idea of 'elite training' why not? Why couldnt an army of Pale or Darujhistan become Moranth? I dont believe they can but its perfectly possible given weve never seen one without its armour. Also the Moranth weve seen in SW , for example, use heavy infantry tactics. Why couldnt conquered humans be given the same training? From what weve seen its not too disimilar to the tactics employed by Malaz its just that Blue Moranth veterans fought newly recruited (for the most part) heavy infantry.

Your idea of the Malazans being able to defeat the Moranth on the principle of expanding elite manpower, whereas the Moranth would only be able to use them as auxiliaries makes little sense.

Edit- I thought Cloud Forest contained a fragment of KE? I havnt got the books with me atm so could have confused it with something else.

We've never seen Cloud Forest but unless they have mile-deep caverns or skyscrapers in there, they're still confined by the physical size of it in how much space they have for people and for food production to support their own populace. The Moranth Forest is miniscule compared to Lether or the Malazan Empire, so the total population should be a lot smaller. I'm saying they won't take in the populace of conquered regions because they're already exlcusive to themselves. If a Red Moranth is not trained and accepted in a company of Blue or Gold, then a non-Moranth has even less of a chance.

 flea, on 09 January 2011 - 07:00 PM, said:

Interesting how little we really know about the Moranth. Perhaps they will be prominent in the darujhistan novel.

I also seem to recall that there is a fragment of KE in the vicinity.

Well, maybe there is a fragment there then. I suppose it's all hearsay since no one's ever seen the supposed "cities" in the forest, but that still gives credence to the idea that they live in the forest in Wu and not in the KE fragment, so I'm still standing by a limited population theory.

If a Red Moranth isnt trained or accepted into a Gold then others wont have a chance? When did this happen?

In any case if you dont think Cloud Forest contains a fragment of KE then maybe population would be limited.

As I said though the Moranth dont want to exercise power as theyre more concerned with internal politics. We have no idea how they would react to conquest so claiming that because they now segregate does not mean they would if they had the desire for expansion. Your claiming they wouldnt absorb peoples because there exclusive but they wouldnt expand for the same reason as I said. In this purely hypothetical invasion we have no idea how the Moranth would act because weve got very little information on them.

[masan's saddle]

 amphibian, on 09 January 2011 - 07:25 PM, said:

 masan, on 09 January 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:

With regards to the Blue Moranth, I am about 3/4's through SW and I have a question.

How do they climb the rigging, trim the yardarm, haul the mainsail, shiver me timbers etc etc, whilst encased in armour with stonking great helmets on their heads ?

It's a minor quibble I know, but have I missed something somewhere about them wearing blue linen ninja suits ?

I can't see how they can operate a sailing ship in full armour and helm, seems ridiculous to me.

Well, if you recall Torvald's blue floaty cusser things, that might explain some of it.

The rest... is probably Erikson and ICE not knowing much about sailing.

You're going to have to help me out with that one Amph as I have no idea what you're on about.

Yeh, neither SE or ICE are on record as being Horatio Hornblower fans

[tiam]

I think Apt means that the Blue have a water cusser in TTH that they give to Torvald. There aspected to Mael to some extent so ,for convenience, Im saying that SE and ICE have both come together to claim that the Blue Moranth armour has been magically lightened.