[Thelomen Toblerone]

Well, they managed to invent explosives on Wu, so I don't suppose it's a massive stretch to imagien they invented blue kevlar too....

[MTS]

They didn't invent the munitions, they received the technology from the ancient Edur. And the armour is said somewhere to be quite light and unrestricting (Tourmaline?).

[Sinisdar Toste]

re: Moranth population - what about density? cloud forest might not be a large area, but since we have absolutely no information about moranth cities and their organization, the range of their possible population is huge. perhaps they dwell in the trees? from what we've seen, the moranth have a habit of doing things efficiently, and what could be more efficient than utilizing all possible space, vertical and horizontal? add to this the tendency for fragments of KE to be parallel physical spaces in and of themselves, and there could be even more area available for habitation than should be possible given the physical dimensions of cloud forest.

also, who knows what their armour is made of, or how soon in their lifetimes they begin to wear it? it could be made of a very light material or be sorcerously lightened, or they could begin wearing it so early that the weight is negligible by the time they are adults.

i also don't understand this "export only" thing about the munitions. the moranth clearly still use munitions themselves... perhaps, as was mentioned upthread, the silver just don't allow them to be used in cloud forest.

a hell of a lot of unknowns here.

[nacht]

"The Moranth speak the language of the Barghast shouldermen – the holy tongue – the language that rose from the pit of darkness from whence all thought and all words first came. The Moranth claim kinship with the Barghast – they call us their Fallen Kin. But it is they who have fallen, not us. They who have found a shadowed forest in which to live. They who have embraced the alchemies of the T’isten’ur. They who made peace with the demons long ago, exchanging secrets, before retreating into their mountain fastnesses and hiding for ever behind their insect masks."

- Cafal on Moranth.


Twist shrugged. 'We do not fear change. We do not resist it. The Barghast must accept that growth is necessary, even if painful. They must learn what the Moranth learned long ago, when we did not draw our swords and instead spoke with the Tiste Edur - the grey-skinned wanderers of the seas. Spoke, to discover they were as lost as we were, as weary of war, as ready for peace.'
'Tiste Edur?'
'Children of the Shattered Warren. A fragment had been discovered, in the vast forest of Moranth that would become our new homeland. Kurald Emurlahn, the true face of Shadow. There were so few Tiste Edur left, we chose to welcome them. The last of them are gone now, from Moranth Wood, long gone, but their legacy is what has made us as we are.'"

-Twist to Ganoes.

Whiskeyjack talking to Humbrall Taur on te nature of the Malazan Empire.

Why not? Humbrall Traur demanded. 'Are we not worth enough foes Commander?

Too worthy, Walchief. No, the truth is this. We have treated with you, and the Malazan Empres takes such precedents seriously. You will be met with respect and offers to establish trade, borders and the like - if you so desire. If not, the envoys will depart and that will be last you ever see of the Malazans, until such time as you decide otherwise.

Strange conquerors, you foreigners.

Aye, we are at that.

Why are you on Genabackis, Commander?

The Malazan Empire? We're here to unify, and through unification, grow rich. We are not selfish about getting rich either?

Humbrall Taur thumped his coin-threaded haubrek. 'And silver is all that interests you?'

Well, there's more than one kind of wealth, Warchief.'

Indeed?' The huge warrior's eyes had narrowed.

Whiskeyjack smiled. 'Meeting the White Face clans of the Barghast is one such reward. Diversity is worth celebrating Humbrall Taur, for it is the birthplace of wisdom.

-WhiskeyJack to Humbrall Taur in MOI


The Malazan Empre is not an Empire ruleled by people originating from Malaz Island. It is a certain culture of civilization that has ben embraced by many distinct cultures like the Talians, Wickans, Kanese, Falrians etc. Diversity is it's strength. They typically improve the life of people in whatever country they occupy by removing the ruling tyrants and improving the economic lifestyle.

It is never mentioned what kind of deal the Moranth had with the Malazan empire but it seems safe to assume that they support the objectives mentioned above.

Even with this "noble" goal, the Malazan Empire has had quite a lot of trouble in Seven Cities and such. Imagine the Moranth instead of the Malazan. They are not true humans, look very different and are highly regimented and therefor an "exlcusive" club. Any civilization would have great difficulty in accepting the Moranth as overlords. It appears that the Moranth are heroic, peace pursuing people who have aligned with Malazan to unify the world of Wu, probably in anticipating of some major future event.

I dont think any of the books mention Moranth fighting Moranth. There seems to be some competition but it might be ritual or merit-based in nature. Even the Edur tribes in MT tend to fight ritualistically to avoid loses. The different tribes also band together in face of external threats. I don't think you can use Infighting and Regimentation as the reason to explain why Moranth won't take over the whole world.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

I recall it being mentioned in GotM that the original alliance owed itself (at least in part) to the Moranth seeking retribution against the nearby nations/cities who had been their enemies for years - they march in to Pale after the battle to exact said revenge, iirc.

[Sinisdar Toste]

just one question. why should the moranth have to be expansionist? just because they have the means doesn't mean they have the will. granted this isn't a typical behaviour of a people with the advantages that the moranth do, but the moranth aren't a typical people. they're anything but. why are you attributing to them the quality of acquisitiveness, when the legacy of the tiste edur, if hannan mosags true ambitions are any indication, should have lead them to be isolationists? if it is true that their liason with the edur led them to be the way they are, why would they want to be overlords of peoples that have no clue who the edur are?

why doesn't shal-morzinn rule the entire seven cities continent? fist rythe bude certainly thinks they could. just cuz somebody can do something doesn't mean they will.
edit: or should.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 10 January 2011 - 12:09 AM

[Ulrik]

Why Moranth do not rule Wu? They are brethen to Barghast...and look at Barghast ar DoD...:/ They still have (its my feeling from books) very fragmentarized and ritualized style of life and society. You cant conquer world, when you are interested to counquer your cousin. Or at least punch him. And why rule? They are independent, their products are highly valued, their men too... Plenty of resources and time to punch you cousing and have a nice nice even without world domination

[D'rek]

Sinisdar Toste, on 09 January 2011 - 11:52 PM, said:

re: Moranth population - what about density? cloud forest might not be a large area, but since we have absolutely no information about moranth cities and their organization, the range of their possible population is huge. perhaps they dwell in the trees? from what we've seen, the moranth have a habit of doing things efficiently, and what could be more efficient than utilizing all possible space, vertical and horizontal? add to this the tendency for fragments of KE to be parallel physical spaces in and of themselves, and there could be even more area available for habitation than should be possible given the physical dimensions of cloud forest.

also, who knows what their armour is made of, or how soon in their lifetimes they begin to wear it? it could be made of a very light material or be sorcerously lightened, or they could begin wearing it so early that the weight is negligible by the time they are adults.

i also don't understand this "export only" thing about the munitions. the moranth clearly still use munitions themselves... perhaps, as was mentioned upthread, the silver just don't allow them to be used in cloud forest.

a hell of a lot of unknowns here.

They can definitely *live* in high population density, but you can't farm vertically - no matter how many people you can cram into how small a space, the food production can't be scaled as easily to accomodate.

nacht, on 09 January 2011 - 11:53 PM, said:

The Malazan Empre is not an Empire ruleled by people originating from Malaz Island. It is a certain culture of civilization that has ben embraced by many distinct cultures like the Talians, Wickans, Kanese, Falrians etc. Diversity is it's strength. They typically improve the life of people in whatever country they occupy by removing the ruling tyrants and improving the economic lifestyle.

It is never mentioned what kind of deal the Moranth had with the Malazan empire but it seems safe to assume that they support the objectives mentioned above.

Even with this "noble" goal, the Malazan Empire has had quite a lot of trouble in Seven Cities and such. Imagine the Moranth instead of the Malazan. They are not true humans, look very different and are highly regimented and therefor an "exlcusive" club. Any civilization would have great difficulty in accepting the Moranth as overlords. It appears that the Moranth are heroic, peace pursuing people who have aligned with Malazan to unify the world of Wu, probably in anticipating of some major future event.

I dont think any of the books mention Moranth fighting Moranth. There seems to be some competition but it might be ritual or merit-based in nature. Even the Edur tribes in MT tend to fight ritualistically to avoid loses. The different tribes also band together in face of external threats. I don't think you can use Infighting and Regimentation as the reason to explain why Moranth won't take over the whole world.

I think the Moranth could do well as conquerors of a place. They don't look or seem human, but they do seem to have a good set of ethics/law and their warriors are powerful enough to enforce their laws. But the Malazans can then recruit their conquered peoples into their military and civil authority, then spread outwards further with the renewed numerical strength, while I don't believe the Moranth would be able to do so, so they'd be more limited in the amount of space they can conquer until they have every Moranth serving as governors/police/etc. in their conquered territories.

As for Moranth fighting Moranth, didn't the Black commander with the rogue 6th say he would fight the Blue (but then he got assigned elsewhere because the overlord was paranoid)?

Sinisdar Toste, on 10 January 2011 - 12:08 AM, said:

just one question. why should the moranth have to be expansionist? just because they have the means doesn't mean they have the will. granted this isn't a typical behaviour of a people with the advantages that the moranth do, but the moranth aren't a typical people. they're anything but. why are you attributing to them the quality of acquisitiveness, when the legacy of the tiste edur, if hannan mosags true ambitions are any indication, should have lead them to be isolationists? if it is true that their liason with the edur led them to be the way they are, why would they want to be overlords of peoples that have no clue who the edur are?

why doesn't shal-morzinn rule the entire seven cities continent? fist rythe bude certainly thinks they could. just cuz somebody can do something doesn't mean they will.
edit: or should.

The simple answer for the why the Moranth haven't conquered anywhere is that they are inward-looking people.

But that's no fun so we're debating how well they would do if they tried to conquer.

[Sinisdar Toste]

D, on 10 January 2011 - 02:33 AM, said:

The simple answer for the why the Moranth haven't conquered anywhere is that they are inward-looking people.

But that's no fun so we're debating how well they would do if they tried to conquer.

hehe, i agree that debating the mechanics of a possible moranth invasion is more fun than being satisfied with the simple answer. i'm just of the opinion that the simple answer is probably the correct one in this instance.

[nacht]

Quote

They can definitely *live* in high population density, but you can't farm vertically - no matter how many people you can cram into how small a space, the food production can't be scaled as easily to accomodate.

Good one, In addition, if the forest was teeming with Moranth, other people would know. You can't keep hiding a big population forever.

Quote

I think the Moranth could do well as conquerors of a place. They don't look or seem human, but they do seem to have a good set of ethics/law and their warriors are powerful enough to enforce their laws. But the Malazans can then recruit their conquered peoples into their military and civil authority, then spread outwards further with the renewed numerical strength, while I don't believe the Moranth would be able to do so, so they'd be more limited in the amount of space they can conquer until they have every Moranth serving as governors/police/etc. in their conquered territories.

As for Moranth fighting Moranth, didn't the Black commander with the rogue 6th say he would fight the Blue (but then he got assigned elsewhere because the overlord was paranoid)?

I always found SE's use of the Black Moranth in Stoneweilder kind of fishy. Are they really stranded in Fist. Can't the Moranth send the Blue to extricate them. Maybe they decided to play along and see how it turns out. Maybe the Overlord of Fist had reasons to be suspicious of them.

The Moranth Regiments are very complementary to each other (Blue for Seamen, Green for Travel and Logistics etc. with the Gold, Black being maybe like the Marines and the Army). Does that specialization not imply that they are supposed to work together.

Quote

The simple answer for the why the Moranth haven't conquered anywhere is that they are inward-looking people.


But that's no fun so we're debating how well they would do if they tried to conquer.

I don't they are peacniks though or Isolationists either. They "are" trying to do something but indirectly by working through the Malazan's.
Shal-Morzin seem like true isolationists.

[Roldom]

maybe its more specialistaion because of the clans different places in cloud forest

the blue are navel because there the caln with terriorty near the sea, the black have access to quorl breeding grounds which is why they seem to be the only ones with quorls, the gold live in the cities, presuambly the silver are the moranth born with mage abilitys from all the clans, but go to the silver for training and once they become mages they put the silver clans interests above their previous clans,

so its more a specilization to an enviroment, rather than one nation which sends different people to do different things

[Abyss]

However well organized and trained, Moranth are mortal and can die like everyone else.

As mentioned upthread, the crimson Guard hit the Gold and Silver hard in Genabackis. Per MoI, Pale's forces gave them a hard time historically, and the Rhivi spirits screwed Twist's arm, to say nothing of the quorl aerial forces being devastated by the demon-vultures (typing stuff like that reminds me how much i love this series ) . The Mare fleet in SW was a challenge, even if they won. The Pairie Dogs in RCG were able to make the Gold back off a little with nothing more than a hell of a lot of skirmishers with crossbows.

Point being however awesome they may be at what they do, the Moranth are a mortal army and can be stopped by other mortal armies.

Add to that the alien mindset, the isolationist tendencies and the fact that they seem to have ample mercenary tendencies but no expansionist ones, and there you have it.

@Nacht - solid quote fu - would rep you if the function was working.

[ThinkingMalaz]

Aren't we forgetting something? In MoI Twist has several conversations with Paran revealing the Moranth are the same Race as the Barghast. They chose however not to fight the Tiste Edur on the seas but to talk with them and ally and live with them. From them they apparently learned a lot of their advanced sciences (as far as Wu goes) though the Tiste Edur are gone now (died out? Left? not very clear from twists words). The Moranth learned not to fight change but adapt to it, which created their mysterious and so far very unique civilisation. Apart fom that we do not know all that much. There are different colours but what do they represent faction wise? still a mystery, and one of my pet niggles just as Assail is

[Abyss]

ThinkingMalaz, on 12 January 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

Aren't we forgetting something? In MoI Twist has several conversations with Paran revealing the Moranth are the same Race as the Barghast. They chose however not to fight the Tiste Edur on the seas but to talk with them and ally and live with them. From them they apparently learned a lot of their advanced sciences (as far as Wu goes) though the Tiste Edur are gone now (died out? Left? not very clear from twists words). The Moranth learned not to fight change but adapt to it, which created their mysterious and so far very unique civilisation....

the original q was why the Mornath aren't just marching around conquering everyone, given how badass they are.

Your points are more or less accurate, but not quite what was being discussed, but does sideways raise the interesting point that unlike the rest of the Barghast, the pre-edur Moranth weren't as hostile towards the Edur, so clearely a kinder, gentler Barghast from the start.

I wonder whether the Moranth weren't aleady in Cloud Forest and met the Edur there, so they didn't have the experience of fighting them on the seas with the T3s.

[Onos]

Two thoughts. First as was mentioned the Moranth accept change. Perhaps they see something in the Malazans which they dont think they should fight but should accept. Secondly my guess is something in their past (either Barghast or Edur contact) has made them swear off being conquerors. I think they will fight as mercenaries but not be overlords. Example reasons could be in the past the Barghast ancestors were ruled by tyrants so perhaps swearing off tyrants/overlords is part of their culture. They easily could have asked for control of Pale, but all they wanted was there sacrifice of X citizens.

[Roldom]

why did the moranth need help taking their revenge out on pale? surley pale didnt stand a chance against the moranth, especialy before the free cities allience.

[D'rek]

Roldom, on 19 January 2011 - 05:41 AM, said:

why did the moranth need help taking their revenge out on pale? surley pale didnt stand a chance against the moranth, especialy before the free cities allience.

They had a big bunch of powerful mages, and we've yet to see the Silver moranth's magic prowess...

[Onos]

D, on 19 January 2011 - 09:09 PM, said:

Roldom, on 19 January 2011 - 05:41 AM, said:

why did the moranth need help taking their revenge out on pale? surley pale didnt stand a chance against the moranth, especialy before the free cities allience.

They had a big bunch of powerful mages, and we've yet to see the Silver moranth's magic prowess...

Yeah, i second that Pale's mages were powerful. Doesnt Rake comment if those mages hadnt also been cowards they together could have stood against the Malazans. The only thing those mages feared were the Claw. And as far as i know there are no Pink Assassin Moranth. So Moranth vs Pale = Stalemate.

[D'rek]

Onos, on 20 January 2011 - 06:58 PM, said:

D, on 19 January 2011 - 09:09 PM, said:

Roldom, on 19 January 2011 - 05:41 AM, said:

why did the moranth need help taking their revenge out on pale? surley pale didnt stand a chance against the moranth, especialy before the free cities allience.

They had a big bunch of powerful mages, and we've yet to see the Silver moranth's magic prowess...

Yeah, i second that Pale's mages were powerful. Doesnt Rake comment if those mages hadnt also been cowards they together could have stood against the Malazans. The only thing those mages feared were the Claw. And as far as i know there are no Pink Assassin Moranth. So Moranth vs Pale = Stalemate.

Well, we don't really know what the Red Moranth specialize in...

[Abyss]

D, on 20 January 2011 - 07:01 PM, said:

Onos, on 20 January 2011 - 06:58 PM, said:

D, on 19 January 2011 - 09:09 PM, said:

Roldom, on 19 January 2011 - 05:41 AM, said:

why did the moranth need help taking their revenge out on pale? surley pale didnt stand a chance against the moranth, especialy before the free cities allience.

They had a big bunch of powerful mages, and we've yet to see the Silver moranth's magic prowess...

Yeah, i second that Pale's mages were powerful. Doesnt Rake comment if those mages hadnt also been cowards they together could have stood against the Malazans. The only thing those mages feared were the Claw. And as far as i know there are no Pink Assassin Moranth. So Moranth vs Pale = Stalemate.

Well, we don't really know what the Red Moranth specialize in...

Nope but we REALLY want to!


But point being that Pale had given the Moranth trouble for years and was still holding off the Malazans up until the Enfilade.

The Moranth are not all powerful. effective, yes. badass, certainly, but not indefeatable by any means.