[Hetan]

Jenisapt Rul, on 21 December 2010 - 07:44 AM, said:

Pretty much all the examples mentioned above is either a dragon vs a big scary ascendant powerhouse or a dragon who was so sure of itself that it didn't to cover its bases.

Tatterdemalion, on 20 December 2010 - 11:23 PM, said:

Hi guys. Spoilers, all books. Natch.

So I was reading the ending to Reaper's Gale yesterday when Silchas Ruin gets, well, ruined by the combined efforts of Fiddler, Hedge and Quick Ben. I thought to myself "dragons get beaten up a LOT in these books" so I thought I'd try to write out all the dragon scenarios I can remember and whether the dragon won or lost - I'm talking soletaken form here, or Elient. I welcome all contributions!

1. Silanah vs. Raest - winner: Raest.
While Raest was beaten until he slipped from his body, this was through the combined efforts of lots of folks. By himself, if I recall, Raest beat up on Silanah pretty bad. Pre-K'rul.

Raest is probably the most powerful ascendant we have seen, or at least the one we have seen show the most destructive potential. Even Rake suspected that he might die in a fight with Raest (lets not get into that discussion).

Raest was immune to physical damage and could apparently withstand the dragons warrens. Which makes him pretty much the worst thing for a dragon to face... well, except for a cusser.

Tatterdemalion, on 20 December 2010 - 11:23 PM, said:

2. Silchas Ruin vs. Lether - winner: Lether.
Silchas Ruin simply gets bitchslapped here by the sappers and Quick.

Ruin was too angry and too ignorant to use his head. In his time there was no such thing as a cusser, so the only thing you had to worry about was a strong mage or ascendant getting in your way. Imagine his surprise when a tiny mortal figure lobs a clay ball at him and it not only explodes it punches straight through his magically enhanced armor and then some crazy mage suddenly opens 12 warrens, TWELVE?!?, and gives him a broadside while he is down.

I think if anything that scene was a testiment to how strong Ruin is. He took several cussers and the full brunt of Quicks new and improved magical potential and was able to fly away. That's fucking strong.

What if Ruin has just hovered over Lether and rained death from above bow range. It would suck to be there that day.

Tatterdemalion, on 20 December 2010 - 11:23 PM, said:

3. Orfantal vs. Kallor - winner: Kallor.
Orfantal is a huge bad-ass dragon, yet somehow unable to shake/kill a wily old man. Wily, I say!

I never did like this scene. Again it is a case of a dragon being too assure of its size advantage but the thing that gets me is that I don't really see how a sword through the throat could kill it. Dragons/Soletaken usually show an ability to soak up crazy amounts of damage with out dying. So why the hell is a puncture wound in the next enough to kill Orfantal?

Tatterdemalion, on 20 December 2010 - 11:23 PM, said:

4. Rake vs. Tenescowri - winner: Rake.
Rake murders a pile of Tenescowri as soletaken briefly. Lopsided, but badass. One for the dragons... sorta.

Sort of? Rakes scene was a perfect example of why Dragons are awesome. Kills people in the boatloads and doesn't afraid of anything.

Tatterdemalion, on 20 December 2010 - 11:23 PM, said:

5. Menadore, Sukul, Shelthana vs. Quick Ben, Hedge and renegade T'lan Imass of the Refugium - winner: Refugium.
Menadore and Shelthana get blasted up by QB, then once Menadore is dead, Shelthana dies to Hedge's cusser. Sukul didn't die this way, but she still 'lost the fight' as a soletaken. They all did.

Again. Arrogance and ignorance. If the dragons had not been so self assure they'd have attacked from different angles and they'd opened up early. You'd also think they'd be clever enough to not fall for the old Earth Attack trick after millenia. And the last kill by the suicidal Bonecasters was just pathetic. She could have burned them where they stood, but noooo.

Tatterdemalion, on 20 December 2010 - 11:23 PM, said:

6. Elient vs. Kilmandaros - winner: Kilmandaros.
Kilmandaros punches a LOT of dragons to death, or so I'm lead to believe.

Again, like Raest, Killy is an Elder God, of Destruction no less, she is a powerhouse. The thing you have to wonder about with her is that she seems unable to fly. So how the fuck did she kill all those dragons? I am assuming she is capable of throwing a lot of magic around if it pleases her.

Tatterdemalion, on 20 December 2010 - 11:23 PM, said:

7. Some Dragon in The Crippled God (as per front cover) vs. something - winner: something.
I don't know what happens, but as per the cover another dragon gets wasted.
I'm chalking a score of DRAGONS: 1, OPPONENTS: 7 +/- however many Kilmandaros has killed (10-500, say)

Thoughts?

The dragon on that cover is the size of a Aircraft Carrier. Not really a dragon you kill with a stab from a sword... unless that sword is really big or Dragnipur.

Or a Hust sword ?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

And I think that's a slight hint by hetan, that Yedan Derrig wins this fight also.

Anyway I'd like to point out that the OP's only favorable point to dragon (Rake vs Tenescowri) also didn't end so well for the dragon: Rake snatched Anaster but is sent reeling to the ground by the CG's poison

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 21 December 2010 - 05:20 PM

[Ceda Cicero]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 21 December 2010 - 05:11 PM, said:

And I think that's a slight hint by hetan, that Yedan Derrig wins this fight also.

Anyway I'd like to point out that the OP's only favorable point to dragon (Rake vs Tenescowri) also ended bad for the dragon: Rake snatched Anaster but is sent crashing to the ground by the CG's poison

I will now contend that as an admin, Hetan has a responsibility to empower the members of this thread to cast fully-informed votes for/against dragon badassitude. Therefore, Hetan, in your capacity as an admin and to prevent others from casting uneducated votes, you should now post scanned copies of all pages dealing with dragons and Yedan.

Because context is everything, you might also want to consider just posting a scan of the entire book. In its entirity. Entirely.

......Worth a try.

[worry]

Abyss, on 21 December 2010 - 04:56 PM, said:

amphibian, on 21 December 2010 - 04:43 PM, said:

Jenisapt Rul, on 21 December 2010 - 07:44 AM, said:

The dragon on that cover is the size of a Aircraft Carrier. Not really a dragon you kill with a stab from a sword... unless that sword is really big or Dragnipur.

It's Yedan Derryg. I'm not betting against him if it's anything other than an Elder God.

I'm betting he just stabs it in the toe and then runs up the body all the way to its nose opening it up like a pinãta.

- Ãbÿŝŝ, ...

It's a little known fact that the entirety of the MBotF is an elaborate advertisement for Shadow of the Colossus.

[champ]

Abyss, on 21 December 2010 - 04:56 PM, said:

amphibian, on 21 December 2010 - 04:43 PM, said:

Jenisapt Rul, on 21 December 2010 - 07:44 AM, said:

The dragon on that cover is the size of a Aircraft Carrier. Not really a dragon you kill with a stab from a sword... unless that sword is really big or Dragnipur.

It's Yedan Derryg. I'm not betting against him if it's anything other than an Elder God.

I'm betting he just stabs it in the toe and then runs up the body all the way to its nose opening it up like a pinãta.

- Ãbÿŝŝ, ...

Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children... Cloud Vs Bahamut - perfect scene for that description!

This post has been edited by champooon: 21 December 2010 - 06:59 PM

[Aptorian]

Yeah but Yeden isn't capable of firing giant comets out of his sword... is he?

[Sinisdar Toste]

Hetan?

[Abyss]

Hetan, on 21 December 2010 - 04:57 PM, said:

...Or a Hust sword ?

I hate you hetan.

Jenisapt Rul, on 21 December 2010 - 07:00 PM, said:

Yeah but Yeden isn't capable of firing giant comets out of his sword... is he?

he damn well SHOULD be!

[hmqb]

Interesting....
So pretty much Dragons are most definitely bad ass, but not the most badassed thing out there.

[Tatterdemalion]

Well, the point of the topic was to point out that in-story, in what we get, dragons don't accomplish much and seem to get beaten around. The points that they are careless, etc. are basically irrelevant. I know that they are powerful and arrogant, but the point is we never see it. There's no book emprical evidence because something always takes them down. Now, I'm cool with SE's reasoning for 'the old ascendants think they're the shit but then new stuff is actually stronger.' I LOVE this. I think its a great motiff to run on and it is great seeing, say, Paran bitchslap gods. Great stuff! I just intend to show that our book-time with dragons leaves them mewling kittens compared to a guy with a bomb-slingshot, 6-12 warrens or a longsword to the neck. And the tenescowri isn't even the best example, because, putting aside the poison bit for now, it's OBVIOUS a effing dragon should be able to obliterate tens, hundreds, thousands or poorly armed starving weaklings. The way it stands now, though, I wouldn't put it past a dragon to lose to Murillo in a duel.

...and then the regulars started talking in their inside jokes and I lost what was going on.
It's all right. I still love y'all. I did also enjoy the TV tropes link. A great site.

[amphibian]

Tatterdemalion, on 22 December 2010 - 05:30 AM, said:

...and then the regulars started talking in their inside jokes and I lost what was going on.

I believe Hetan and Malaclypse have an arrangement with Erikson where they essentially get the manuscripts very early on in the publishing process to go over for errors and reactions etc. Perks of running the best MBotF site and one of the best forums anywhere.

Thus... Hetan is teasing us with the "Hust sword" line and as usual, some of us are trying to get more details out of them ahead of time. Hell, I'd do it too, but they're brick walls. Walls with enticing details being randomly and very, very infrequently ejected through the mail slot whenever they want. IT'S NO FAAAAAIIIIR!

[Ulrik]

Well, Im NOT trying to get more details...no, I dont want any details, bad Hetan, bad!

[Soulessdreamer]

Only one example was of true dragons not soultaken and they lost to a god, the rest were ascendants scrapping, besides the crusifided otataral what real dragons have we "seen"?

All we have is hearsay in the form of myths or half forgotton stories.

we have yet to encounter a full bloodied dragon pc or mage or ascendant or anything

TTFN

[Illuyankas]

Silannah
Those three chained ones in Shadow
Possibly the three in the Azath in DG

Probably more I'm forgetting.

[MTS]

Sorrit
Dragon in DoD prologue
Possibly the one Kallor talks to
Technically all the dead ones in SD

[Illuyankas]

I missed those out because being on the whole dead or dying, they no longer have their usual full amount of blood, so no longer qualifying for the whole 'full blooded' thing. Oddly pedantic, but it's been a long day.

[MTS]

Fair enough, I guess, although the dead one Kallor talks to is pretty animate. There's also the dragons that were chained in Dragnipur.

[Hetan]

MTS, on 23 December 2010 - 04:53 AM, said:

Fair enough, I guess, although the dead one Kallor talks to is pretty animate. There's also the dragons that were chained in Dragnipur.

Tulas Shorn doesn't count as he's soletaken. So Ampelas, Eloth and Kalse (whom are all chained in Shadow), Sorrit (dead so doesn't count), chained Dragon in Prologue (probably can count that one out too), Korabas (the Otataral dragon (chained in a pocket warren) the other two are Telorast and Curdle (who are also chained in Shadow) and finally Silanah. I won't bother with the ones in SD - they are not able to cross into Wu. All the others are Soletaken.

So no, apart from Silanah we haven't seen any true eleint who are free to do anything badass.

[MTS]

Hetan, on 23 December 2010 - 07:06 AM, said:

MTS, on 23 December 2010 - 04:53 AM, said:

Fair enough, I guess, although the dead one Kallor talks to is pretty animate. There's also the dragons that were chained in Dragnipur.

Tulas Shorn doesn't count as he's soletaken. So Ampelas, Eloth and Kalse (whom are all chained in Shadow), Sorrit (dead so doesn't count), chained Dragon in Prologue (probably can count that one out too), Korabas (the Otataral dragon (chained in a pocket warren) the other two are Telorast and Curdle (who are also chained in Shadow) and finally Silanah. I won't bother with the ones in SD - they are not able to cross into Wu. All the others are Soletaken.

So no, apart from Silanah we haven't seen any true eleint who are free to do anything badass.

Is it confirmed that that dragon was Tulas Shorn though? Because it's mentioned there were multiple dragons in those barrows. We know he was in Kharkanas as well, and an Edur Soletaken probably wasn't even on Wu when the Jaghut led their armies against Death, as they were 'scattered and few' when Scabandari arrived. Tulas Shorn says he doesn't remember his death, whereas the dead dragon does. Tulas Shorn doesn't seem the like to bow before the Crippled God either - he told ST and Cot he wanted the Throne of Shadow. He does empathise with him though.

This post has been edited by MTS: 23 December 2010 - 07:23 AM

[Hetan]

There was only one dragon that escaped through the Trygalle's rent and it was Tulas Shorn.

Just to go back to something regarding the Soletaken, apart from Rake, Menandore had been reduced in power considerably by Ryadd Eleis' drawing on her life force etc, Sukhul and Silchas had spent centuries and more imprisoned in an Azath so they can be forgiven for underestimating how things like the human warrens had changed the world since their imprisonment I think.