[GingerBreadMan]

Sheve, on 03 January 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

amphibian, on 03 January 2011 - 02:21 AM, said:

GingerBreadMan, on 03 January 2011 - 02:01 AM, said:

Look back, did we ever hear about Kellanved doing something on the level of Tayschrenn/Quick Ben?

Everything he has done could also be done if he was just incredibly clever/intelligent and if he was also a great mage, around Tayschrenns level...how did the Crimson Guard ever stand a chance against the Malazans?

Daseem vs Skinner kind of cancel each other out
Dancer is a better assassin to Cowl, so much so that in the one battle we read about, he is taking out the Crimson GUard mage cadres
Tayschrenn is a better mage than Cowl

In other words, Dassem/Dancer/Tays>>>>>Skinner/Cowl....so if you also give the Malazans Kellanved, a high mage of the level of Tays, wouldn't that be almost unfair?

The Crimson Guard made an alliance with Anomander Rake and Caladan Brood - one is the Knight of Darkness, carries around an appalling sword that he took off an Elder God's dead body and is a freakin' dragon direct from Tiam's blood, while the other just carries around a hammer that can break the planet.

Plus having that overbearing power does not mean you can bring it at the right time and right place to squash the Crimson Guard - you have to find them and fight them. The sense I got from Mott Wood, Blackdog and Pale was that pitched battles were incredibly rare. For both sides, it was a campaign of ambushes, raids and trying to find each other and close in the muck, brush, jungle and forests.

I can't remember exactly where, but it is said that Kellanved was a master of his warren and an insanely powerful mage.

The Malazans were supposed to beat the Crimson Guard, but the alliance made it more difficult and costlier. Plus Kellanved and Dancer left, Dassem died, the Napans drowned and Surly was left as the only one who truly wanted to seize the reins.

In the wars of subjugation there where no Anomander Rake or Brood.
Its the war that Kallanved waged to conquer Quon tali.

But the crimson guard we see now is severely diminished from what it should have been back then.
100 left now of the 1000 or so that swore the oath.(avowed that is).

In RotCG there is mention of Kallanved creating a earthquake killing tens of thousands of his own troops as well as destroying the central fortress of the Crimson Guard.

Right and while the Guard was diminished, there were still only 600 original Avowed.

If you reread ROTCG, Skinner mentions they need to leave because Dancer istaking out their mages(despite Cowl making him pay) and they can no longer hold of Tayschrenn....So Dancer and Tays are in this climatic battle, Kellanved is mentioned being there, but he doesn't do anything?! Is he just the type who gathers the badasses to his side and then sits on a throne and watches while cackling madly?

"Eventually, the last of their ancestral holds, the D'Avore family fastness fell. The Citadel, it was called. Kellanved brought it down with an earthquake. He killed thousands of his own men. "

but I think that was attributed to him in the way that unleashing the Imass was. Or it could be as simple as saying "George Bush invaded Iraq"...obviously he didn't personally invade Iraq, in the same way you could say Kellanved brought down the citadel when it was Tayschrenn or some other earth related high mage.

We've seen Dancer fighting, Tays using his magic, Daseem doing his thing..Surly, Cowl, Skinner etc.. etc...

But never Kellanved...

[Hetan]

Just testing out a problem with this particular forum

Spoiler

The Crippled God is just fantastic

[beru]

FUUUUUUUUUU


also brains

[tiam]

Kellenved isnt the out and out mage that Tay is. Unleashing Telas against an army makes sense. Shadow isnt like that.

Also I dont think your George Bush analogy works in a universe where powerful beings actually cause mass destruction. Its completely plausible that Kellenved can cause earthquakes.

[D'rek]

On this whole CrimGuard vs Malazans bit,

1. The Crimson Guard lost. So why is it weird that the Malazans seemed to have more powerful figures?

2. Cowl and Skinner were among the uppermost echelons of the Crimson Guard just after K'azz disappeared when they were fighting off the Malazans in Stratem. Them and the same figures who were in command then or later (ie Shimmer, Jup Alat) were not necessarily so highly ranked during the conquests of Quon Tali (Skinner, for example, was a sergeant of that famous blade (the 9th, 3rd company?), then became lieutenant and then commander of the 1st company. So there would have been other powerful figures amongst the Crimson Guard that died during the wars on Quon Tali and then Stratem (at some point in RotCG there's a nice little list of great swordsmen Dassem killed, for example).

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

D, on 04 January 2011 - 10:04 PM, said:

On this whole CrimGuard vs Malazans bit,

1. The Crimson Guard lost. So why is it weird that the Malazans seemed to have more powerful figures?

2. Cowl and Skinner were among the uppermost echelons of the Crimson Guard just after K'azz disappeared when they were fighting off the Malazans in Stratem. Them and the same figures who were in command then or later (ie Shimmer, Jup Alat) were not necessarily so highly ranked during the conquests of Quon Tali (Skinner, for example, was a sergeant of that famous blade (the 9th, 3rd company?), then became lieutenant and then commander of the 1st company. So there would have been other powerful figures amongst the Crimson Guard that died during the wars on Quon Tali and then Stratem (at some point in RotCG there's a nice little list of great swordsmen Dassem killed, for example).

Plus the Malazans had a shitload more on their plate than just the little valley of Gris. Also K'azz is apparently a military genius on par with anyone the Malazans had. Also, they didn't make the Vow until after they were beaten and there was only 600 left, at which point they had the Diaspora. I'm sure there were a bunch of places the Malazans conquered where there were 600 survivors. What makes the Crimson Guard special is they all swore a vow that made them unkillable and then formed a mercenary company that split up to oppose the Malazans on several different continents.

[ansible]

Out of curiosity, is it specifically said that the CG's heart landed in Kolanse? Or only that it is currently there? Now that we've seen Skinner and others move parts of the CG around at will, perhaps his heart was moved to Kolanse and hidden there. The Korel subcontinent seems pretty destroyed by the Fall, but perhaps Kolanse was spared?

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

ansible, on 06 January 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

Out of curiosity, is it specifically said that the CG's heart landed in Kolanse? Or only that it is currently there? Now that we've seen Skinner and others move parts of the CG around at will, perhaps his heart was moved to Kolanse and hidden there. The Korel subcontinent seems pretty destroyed by the Fall, but perhaps Kolanse was spared?

DoD page 166

Quote

Quick Ben rubbed vigorously at his face, and then said, 'The Crippled God came down in pieces. Everyone knows that. Most of him, it's said, fell on Korel, which is what gave that continent its other name: Fist. Other bits fell...elsewhere. Despite the damage done to Korel, that was not where the true heart of the god landed. No, it spun away from the rest of him. It found its very own continent...'
'Kolanse,' said Keneb. 'It landed in Kolanse.'
Tavore said, 'I mentioned that penchant for monotheism-it is hardly surprising, given what must have been a most traumatic visitation by a god-the visitor who never went away.'

So, yes. It landed in Kolanse and hasn't been moved since...perhaps can't be moved, the heart may be different than whatever was on Korel.

[Limper]

I liked the book a lot, despite the transatlantic shipping surcharge and the high speed kaleidoscopic POV changes. Remember, we're reading novels, not encyclopedia articles. As good authors, SE and ICE should maintain a certain skepticism, anger, curiousity, and such; not just expect the readers to wait patiently for the next installment of crystal-clear revelations. That said, hold the POVs a bit longer, and more war-donkey stories please! A good sub-plot conclusion would not leave me thirsty for more.

On topic, to me, as emperor, Kellanved certainly once had that sledge-hammer sorcery capability, but he was also inherently deceptive, born for the shadow throne. So later, if he were weak he would pretend power, and vice-versa. On the other hand, did he use one warren or many prior to godhood, and shouldn't godhood (or station in a god's pantheon) deny access to all those other warrens? I think he has become constrained to the powers of shadow (whichever shadow warrens that may include or not). That means, having relatively few acolytes and worshippers, he's fairly limited. His remaining strengths are manipulation, deception, and administration. He also gains healing, which seems to be a given for any god although not particularly well-loved by the practitioners. He remains intelligent and ambitious, and we have to believe the ambition goes beyond defeating the Crippled God to pulling some other fast one on the universe, like rewriting the pantheon or catching a really big fish.

Who's that Lady? No idea. An elder goddess would want bloodshed to source her power. I'm not sure the CG (god not guard - silly pita acronym pair) derives power from bloodshed - I don't think we really know what makes him strong or weak yet, do we? She is more than a magus, certainly an ascendant or more. I'd call her a new god wannabe. She has learned to gather the powers of followers, holy bloodshed, and/or sacrifices. She does not seem to have a house yet, but she has won the enmity of QoD. I think the shieldwall has nothing to do with her defense, just blood-offerings.


Call me Tiste Geos - dumb as a rock.

[Roldom]

its a crippled god jigsaw and everyones stolen one of the pieces!

wasnt the penchant for monotheism that was talked about by quick ben supposed to be about kolanase. yet korel is also a monotheistic society, thanks to the lady being a bitch...maybe the lady is just the crippled gods feminime side.

the crippled god has his own warren, the lady doesnt seem to have one. the lady has three pieces of the crippled god in her possesion, ignoring the one skinner took, how many parts does the CG have? maybe he is just the brains of the deity berift of his power.

if the lady is a seperate entity, maybe the 3rd piece was stolen to be used to force the lady to do what the CG wants?

[mot]

To give my two cents, I throw out there that the Fall of the being described in the prologue not only happened physically, scattering pieces of it across Wu, but also into aspects of its personality. I believe that the Lady can be seen as another aspect of that being which may have co-opted an native Wu personality (spirit or mortal), and acheived a level of independence. Or to put it another way, some of the pieces, like the realm of Shadow, survived as independent entities by piggybacking on native elements ( in terms of Shadow, I'm thinking of the Whirlwind, which if I'm remembering right utilized the dream of the jilted Tlan Imass and a fragment of the Shadow realm) to survive. So far, the primary aspect to gain independence is the CG himself, who has been chained again and again and has now been incorporated into the newest system by his inclusion in the Deck. The Ravens, though a minor aspect, have gotten themselves incorporated into a native Wu form. Now we have been introduced to the Lady, who appears to be an aspect that grafted itself onto an older, outdated, though still effacacious Wu form, that of the older blood magic system noted not only by the rites she requires, but by the use of Holds instead of Decks elsewhere in the islands. This multiple identity formula would not be unique. Heboric heard numerous voices in the Jade Statues that had entire conversations. These too have fallen out of the sky. One last observation, it seemed to me in the prologue that prior to the Fall, there was no concern about Stormriders in the sea; their presence coincided with the Fall. Moreover, the colors associated with their presence, the aquamarines and emeralds, are the same colors the individual sees in the sky when the Fall happens. If this is the case, it seems to me that the Stormriders may be similar to the Ravens, beings that arise out of the Fall by integrating with beings among which the pieces fell. This may explain their intent, which doesn't have to do with controlling the land, but gaining and destroying or incorporating the pieces (since we really don't know what they did when they went in the well and so forth). I'll end with one question that may arise, assuming that what I've presented is valid, is one of the challenges that the CG represents is a new form of deity, meaning not a new deity (which arise all the time), but a new type of deity?

[HiddenOne]

Re-reading now, I think the whole Lady issue is this - The giant figure in the Prologue: Thel Akai Ascendant/Minor Diety who has "died" from lack of worship or antiquity. This diety was then possessed &/or usurped, reanimated, whatever you want to call it by the newly Fallen One. There is too much reference to rotting stench and other signs of death not to be relevant.

[Roldom]

if she was so weak then how did she manage to drive back the storm riders that first time in the prologue? and if her aura had that kind of effect, why did the storm riders bother trying to reach her? I mean shes been supped up by millenia of worship, if she could drive them back then, why not now? arthritis?

[Blueiron]

I thought that the Lady had found parts of the Crippled God and was using them for power.

[Luzburg]

Roldom, on 19 February 2011 - 03:04 PM, said:

if she was so weak then how did she manage to drive back the storm riders that first time in the prologue? and if her aura had that kind of effect, why did the storm riders bother trying to reach her? I mean shes been supped up by millenia of worship, if she could drive them back then, why not now? arthritis?

Perhaps the Storm Riders have been growing in power by the same thing. The blood of those who fall in their sea? Or they were lacking mages, as in they were still coming through a rent OR were feeding from something else to gain power. OR even they were preoccupied with Malaz Isle. Who knows?

[Asharak]

My impression is that Shell’s explanation is meant to be taken as the truth. Shell says the relic was a part of the being that masqueraded as the Lady, and that being was according to hear the one and only Crippled God. IMHO Esslemont wrote it like it was meant to be the big revelation about the mysterious lady, and not just a theory, so I take it as fact.

The reason TCG was so strong in Korel was probably a result of two things: Three peaces of him were located very close together on a continent that is really small (probably no bigger than 1/5 of Quon Tali), and almost every religious inhabitant on the continent worshipped the Lady. TCG probably considered it his safe haven or something like that.

[MTS]

TCG spoiler:

Spoiler

Quote

‘I will do what you ask. Rather, I shall try. Pieces of me remain missing and I despair of ever seeing them again. It is my understanding that the one named Skinner, usurper and tyrant king of my House of Chains, has many enemies. He can now count me among them. Do you imagine he loses sleep?
‘No, I don’t either. Betrayers never do.
‘Shadowthrone. You will not betray me, will you?’'

So considering the Crippled God himself is almost certainly acknowledging Skinner's theft of a fragment of the Lady confirms Blues' outburst. What is has to do with the Stormriders is still a mystery, however. It may very well be that the Stormriders come from his world, although they don't seem as...alien as everything else from there. The whole 'native to Omtose Phellack' thing I don't really buy.

[tiam]

They could conceivably come from the CG world. We see in TTH that his worshippers are vageuly human as are the StormRiders, if somewhat Tistean in nature. They might be fighting the lady as she usurped the CG fragments.