[Skywalker]

My take was that the original "Lady" the tribals worshiped was perhaps a manifestation of/ another name for T'riss. The CG fragment usurped that, hence the personal enmity.

Personally I found the explanation for what/ who the Lady was adequate. I would've liked more information on the whole Stonewielder business though - why Burn's weapon is in Greymane's hand. Also on the Stormriders - what are they?

[MTS]

Gothos, on 14 December 2010 - 07:21 AM, said:

Triss can't be any sort of 'mother goddess' whatsoever; she's too young. Remember she fooled around in a party with Rake and Brood before she ascended.

And according to Agayla she's not a goddess at all. The Sea-Folk don't consider her a mother goddess either. That title probably belongs to Burn, not the Queen of Dreams.
Agayla:

Quote

‘We are about to speak to one of the greatest powers presently at play here in this world,’ she began. ‘No – hush. Many name her a goddess but to me she is more, and I suppose less, than that. Not like Burn or Fanderay or Togg. Not some ancient entity or force that has come to represent what we choose to cast upon it. She remains a real living person whose influence transcends others’ because she is here, now, and can intervene directly as she sees fit.’ She gave Kiska’s chin a squeeze and gently edged her head side to side. ‘So behave yourself. Speak only when you are spoken to. Bow. Show some of those fancy manners you should have learned in Unta.’

The woman released her and Kiska shook her head as if to recover from some spell or blow. Greater influence than the gods’? What could her aunt possibly be on about? She eyed the shimmering barrier.
‘Who then? What mage?’
Agayla laughed. ‘Oh, Kiska. Not some mage or magus. The greatest. The Enchantress. The Mistress of Thyr. The Queen of Dreams.’

Ussu:

Quote

Perhaps, as they say, Mockra is a child of High Thyr. Perhaps, as they whisper, the Enchantress knows no boundaries.

Kyle:

Quote

Since then he’d discovered that Osserc was merely – merely! – a powerful entity, an Ascendant. Such as the Tiste Andii leader Anomander, Son of Darkness, or as some name the Enchantress, the Queen of Dreams.

We've seen her active in much more than most of the gods at first glance, and the way she acts is much like a god - indirectly - as opposed to Rake, but nevertheless ICE and SE have stressed quite a bit that she is just like Rake in that she spurns the worship that is given her.

I don't really know what to make of the Lady. Being a part of the CG makes sense, but why did it take so long for the gods to act against him, when this has been going on for thousands of years? Perhaps they thought it didn't matter as they chained him, I dunno.

This post has been edited by MTS: 28 December 2010 - 02:58 AM

[Skywalker]

Your quote fu is awesome MTS!

Yeah, seems unlikely then... maybe it was a local goddess the CG fragment usurped

[MTS]

That's an interesting thought. Doesn't really explain why the Stormriders are her 'ancient enemy' though, nor does it explain the enmity towards the Queen of Dreams. Definitely explains why Skinner shows up at the Sky Tower to claim 'flesh of her flesh'. Who knows what the Lady could have been. She looks like a rotted corpse in the prologue. A Thel Akai helping protect the lands against the Stormriders, worshiped by the native Korelans? The prologue says the Fall was at 'the Height of the Jacurucku Crusades', and so would have occurred during Kallor's rule and presumably the swearing of his vow to wipe them from the face of the earth. The Thel Akai are the only beings we've seen who are that tall, and the timeline of the Fall and the location of the CG fits. Perhaps also the CG's efforts were failing and so he appeared to the outlanders to build a wall and provide more power for him? I'm talking out of my ass at this point though, so feel free to ignore said crazy theory.

Interesting that we're told the biggest part of the CG is in Kolanse, yet there's so much emphasis of his presence on Korel. Presumably the land is just as mauled in Kolanse as in Korel, if the CG landed there.

[tiam]

Regarding the QOD I think the difference is that she doesnt really need her worshippers to channel her power. Like Agayla says shes not a force that has been manipulated by its worshippers, like the way Bugg struggles to implement his own will when he wants to transfer those people to the islands in RG. The QOD is still able to implement her will as she sees fit whereas older entities are more reliabl on worshippers.

[GingerBreadMan]

tiam, on 29 December 2010 - 06:18 PM, said:

Regarding the QOD I think the difference is that she doesnt really need her worshippers to channel her power. Like Agayla says shes not a force that has been manipulated by its worshippers, like the way Bugg struggles to implement his own will when he wants to transfer those people to the islands in RG. The QOD is still able to implement her will as she sees fit whereas older entities are more reliabl on worshippers.

Similar to Rake...

In fact I'd say she is more like a super powered Tayschrenn than anything else(am I the only one a bit surprised she is considered the eminent magician around?).

The Stormriders coming after the fragments can be explained as a strategy towards taking her down, she was some enemy who grabbed some of the CG and used it to escape them. So when they got a chance they tried to cut off her three legs of power

[tiam]

Similar to Rake to an extent but id say that Rakes followers are not his Andii around him but the ones in the Onyx Andii that worship him. His followig is quite small and he refused the god hood. But the QOD has (from what we can tell) hundreds of temples on a fair few continents. The largest temple in Yghatan is the best example but im fairly sure weve seen reference to the QOD temples (maybe in Kartool or in that scene where Lostara dances for QB and Bidathal) as being an established Malazan god a well.

Super powered Taychrenn is better as you say and in ICE's novels she does seem to be more of an omnipotent being (in the form of the enchantress) than she is in Eriksons.

i would really prefer it to be the case that it was the power of the CG that was being manipulated by some rogue Storm rider or oceanic deity rather than this being just another face of the CG. Thats what great about the series. The CG is the big baddie (o is he?) but there are continents with their own history.

Wed all be really gutted I think if Assail was simply a human tyrant being manipulated by the CG similar to Rhulad for a blood sacrifice.

In regards to the Lady though, I remember her conversation with Hiam saying that it was their blood sacrifice that stopped the Storm Riders. It didnt say that the power the Lady gained from this sacrifice allowed her to repel the Storm Riders. This allows for the fact that maybe the chunks of the CG that were used to mark the walls ( were all agreed that they were CG chunks I assume?) gained power to repel he riders but not enough to power the larger/dominant CG weve seen in Erikson.

[GingerBreadMan]

Oh yea, perhaps a comparison to Shadowthrone would be better.

Both were superpowered mages(although I've pointed out before that we have NOT seen Kellanved display any terrifying power and thus might be a scholar more than a practitioner) and because of their unique abilities prior to ascending they can do things without relying on their followers like some of the more traditional Gods.

Luckily I REALLY doubt that is what we will find on Assail, otherwise some of the CG's enemies would try to intervene rather than let the Imass get massacred.

I'd guess the blood sacrifice somehow reinvigorates the wards around the island

[tiam]

Blood powering the wards sounds plausible.

As for ST in NOK his presence seems to bring this awe inspiring pressure when he appears. Also him and Cotillion were both really powerful before they ascended, in fact theres no proof that ascending to godhood gave them any power.

This post has been edited by tiam: 30 December 2010 - 03:51 PM

[drinksinbars]

the power level the lady exudes is derived specifically from the blood worship she received in the form of her priests and the wall itself. anywhere one of the three objects of her power resided was like a giant temple which is why ivanr's and the priestess storyline made sense as their professing non violence was anathema to her need for blood. The origin may get explained eventually but it is obvious that she had been around that region for a long time and created the stormwall to consolidate her power and to protect her from the forces attacking her. It is odd in the prologue they talk of the storm riders making annual migrations to worship at a site. It seems like whoever the lady is (possibly a companion of triss given the animosity or brood given the relation to driss) she claimed the piece of the crippled god that the storm riders worshipped or subdued (like the tarthenal in MT) and had the korelri protect her from them.

For that reason i find it highly unlikely that the lady was a piece of the crippled god, and more likely someone who claimed part of him for their own purpose. during dod they speak about pieces of the crippled god crashing into korelri (where they say most fell in kolanse).

Hell maybe the storm riders are the tiste aqua before there was light there was only darkness, but before darkness there was the octopus' garden of the moon...

...


...


...or maybe not

[tiam]

I for one welcome out Tiste Aqua overlords...

Yes it would make sense that she was using the CG but I am unsure whether she was a companian. Triss other companions are Brood Rake etc so though it is of course possible.

[GingerBreadMan]

tiam, on 30 December 2010 - 01:47 PM, said:

Blood powering the wards sounds plausible.

As for ST in NOK his presence seems to bring this awe inspiring pressure when he appears. Also him and Cotillion were both really powerful before they ascended, in fact theres no proof that ascending to godhood gave them any power.

True, but that could just be...presence.

Look back, did we ever hear about Kellanved doing something on the level of Tayschrenn/Quick Ben?

Everything he has done could also be done if he was just incredibly clever/intelligent and if he was also a great mage, around Tayschrenns level...how did the Crimson Guard ever stand a chance against the Malazans?

Daseem vs Skinner kind of cancel each other out
Dancer is a better assassin to Cowl, so much so that in the one battle we read about, he is taking out the Crimson GUard mage cadres
Tayschrenn is a better mage than Cowl

In other words, Dassem/Dancer/Tays>>>>>Skinner/Cowl....so if you also give the Malazans Kellanved, a high mage of the level of Tays, wouldn't that be almost unfair?

This post has been edited by GingerBreadMan: 03 January 2011 - 02:03 AM

[amphibian]

GingerBreadMan, on 03 January 2011 - 02:01 AM, said:

Look back, did we ever hear about Kellanved doing something on the level of Tayschrenn/Quick Ben?

Everything he has done could also be done if he was just incredibly clever/intelligent and if he was also a great mage, around Tayschrenns level...how did the Crimson Guard ever stand a chance against the Malazans?

Daseem vs Skinner kind of cancel each other out
Dancer is a better assassin to Cowl, so much so that in the one battle we read about, he is taking out the Crimson GUard mage cadres
Tayschrenn is a better mage than Cowl

In other words, Dassem/Dancer/Tays>>>>>Skinner/Cowl....so if you also give the Malazans Kellanved, a high mage of the level of Tays, wouldn't that be almost unfair?

The Crimson Guard made an alliance with Anomander Rake and Caladan Brood - one is the Knight of Darkness, carries around an appalling sword that he took off an Elder God's dead body and is a freakin' dragon direct from Tiam's blood, while the other just carries around a hammer that can break the planet.

Plus having that overbearing power does not mean you can bring it at the right time and right place to squash the Crimson Guard - you have to find them and fight them. The sense I got from Mott Wood, Blackdog and Pale was that pitched battles were incredibly rare. For both sides, it was a campaign of ambushes, raids and trying to find each other and close in the muck, brush, jungle and forests.

I can't remember exactly where, but it is said that Kellanved was a master of his warren and an insanely powerful mage.

The Malazans were supposed to beat the Crimson Guard, but the alliance made it more difficult and costlier. Plus Kellanved and Dancer left, Dassem died, the Napans drowned and Surly was left as the only one who truly wanted to seize the reins.

[Sinisdar Toste]

drinksinbars, on 31 December 2010 - 09:17 AM, said:

For that reason i find it highly unlikely that the lady was a piece of the crippled god, and more likely someone who claimed part of him for their own purpose. during dod they speak about pieces of the crippled god crashing into korelri (where they say most fell in kolanse).

think you've got that backwards there mate. it was only the heart that spun off and landed in kolanse, while most of the CG's body landed on korel.

[Sheve]

amphibian, on 03 January 2011 - 02:21 AM, said:

GingerBreadMan, on 03 January 2011 - 02:01 AM, said:

Look back, did we ever hear about Kellanved doing something on the level of Tayschrenn/Quick Ben?

Everything he has done could also be done if he was just incredibly clever/intelligent and if he was also a great mage, around Tayschrenns level...how did the Crimson Guard ever stand a chance against the Malazans?

Daseem vs Skinner kind of cancel each other out
Dancer is a better assassin to Cowl, so much so that in the one battle we read about, he is taking out the Crimson GUard mage cadres
Tayschrenn is a better mage than Cowl

In other words, Dassem/Dancer/Tays>>>>>Skinner/Cowl....so if you also give the Malazans Kellanved, a high mage of the level of Tays, wouldn't that be almost unfair?

The Crimson Guard made an alliance with Anomander Rake and Caladan Brood - one is the Knight of Darkness, carries around an appalling sword that he took off an Elder God's dead body and is a freakin' dragon direct from Tiam's blood, while the other just carries around a hammer that can break the planet.

Plus having that overbearing power does not mean you can bring it at the right time and right place to squash the Crimson Guard - you have to find them and fight them. The sense I got from Mott Wood, Blackdog and Pale was that pitched battles were incredibly rare. For both sides, it was a campaign of ambushes, raids and trying to find each other and close in the muck, brush, jungle and forests.

I can't remember exactly where, but it is said that Kellanved was a master of his warren and an insanely powerful mage.

The Malazans were supposed to beat the Crimson Guard, but the alliance made it more difficult and costlier. Plus Kellanved and Dancer left, Dassem died, the Napans drowned and Surly was left as the only one who truly wanted to seize the reins.

In the wars of subjugation there where no Anomander Rake or Brood.
Its the war that Kallanved waged to conquer Quon tali.

But the crimson guard we see now is severely diminished from what it should have been back then.
100 left now of the 1000 or so that swore the oath.(avowed that is).

In RotCG there is mention of Kallanved creating a earthquake killing tens of thousands of his own troops as well as destroying the central fortress of the Crimson Guard.

[Hetan]

I've only finished up to book 1 of Stonewielder as I'm finding it a bit disjointed to be honest, however my speculation on her at this point leads me to think of her in the same way as the Semk god - I think someone else also has said the same earlier in this thread - that she found a piece of TCG and used it, but I need to finish the book. But you are all saying there is no resolution, which is sapping what little interest I have in it at the moment.

[amphibian]

Hetan, on 03 January 2011 - 12:39 PM, said:

I've only finished up to book 1 of Stonewielder as I'm finding it a bit disjointed to be honest, however my speculation on her at this point leads me to think of her in the same way as the Semk god - I think someone else also has said the same earlier in this thread - that she found a piece of TCG and used it, but I need to finish the book. But you are all saying there is no resolution, which is sapping what little interest I have in it at the moment.

As someone who's rather heavily invested in the Malazan universe and with Erikson's writing specifically, what the blood clot is going on?

I have problems with the book, which is one thing, but if you or Mal are struggling like this, something's seriously screwy with ICE's writing. Is there something we can do to help out?

[Skywalker]

I second ambhibian's concern... and here I was thinking you were an ARC receiver for ICE too Hetan!

[Hetan]

Well thanks for your concern. I am going to sit down this afternoon and finish it. I'm sure it's just a time thing - I've been really really busy for a few months now and this is the last day of the holiday so I'm determined to get to the end today. Nice to Ruthan mentioned, even if in such a small way (to the point that I have read to).
I'm currently in Shadow with Kiska (can't for the life of me work out why they went into there but I move on) and the Stormriders have just had a pop at Iron Bars. That last bit, with Corlo just didn't seem to be written in full, it was very sort of truncated and I've bookmarked that section to read again. I mean three or four passes of the Stormriders and everyone went in for tea? Did I miss something? Or is that generally how the Stormriders attack?

So yes, onwards and upwards and I'll get back later. Sorry to interrupt the Lady thread. Normal service should be resumed asap.

[tiam]

Hetan I wouldnt lose faith. The plot has resolution to an extent and some readers are happy with it .