[The Tyrant Lizard]

This thread is about the students rioting isnt it? Those idiots who kicked apart the police vans and stole the riot gear and graffitted all over london landmarks are a fucking disgrace - regardless of whether or not their tuition fees have gone up. And so what if they have? There's a recession going on isn't there? When the country's coffers are empty and everything's going down the pan cuts need to be made and changes need to be implemented.

Everyone's suffering through this time, but it's only the students who have taken to smashing up the country that is giving them the education they want. Those ones who were seen on tele rioting should be hunting down... I hear you can get a half decent degree in prison - and you dont have to pay a penny for that.

[Cougar]

It's been rumoured that the police van was a plant, it was of a type and design no longer used by the Met. I was chatting with the coppers on the Manchester protest yesterday (which was pretty peaceful) and they were saying the rumour amongst their division was that it had been deliberately abandoned, unlocked and unused knowing it would be vandalised to discredit the protesters, who accordingly fell for the trap. Seems unlikely to me, but it just shows how this is becoming a divisive issue.

I think those who are talking about cuts etc, and the country facing hard times are missing the point. Understandably, since the way this is reported by the press is particularly binary and inaccurate and people rarely bother themselves with the facts before spouting out their half baked opinions. The protests are taking place because the government wants to create a fees system that will disadvantage those from a specific income group. They can't be seen to be excluding the very poorest kids so that minority will remain subsidised to a certain extent. It is those students of relatively low working class back grounds that will be hit. The assessment of fees will hit those whose parents can earn enough to keep themselves in house and home, but can't shell out the fees. Furthermore, it will saddle students with massive debts. Another factor is showing their dissatisfaction with Clegg, who had huge support from the student population, but has now sold his soul to be in government.

Of course the raw increase in fees, along with the cuts to arts funding are hard to swallow, but the way the government is going about it is an ideological commitment to economic elitism that they are shovelling through under the banner of necessary cuts. It's something the Tories have wanted to do for a long time and it isn't about saving money it's about elitism.

It won't have ramifications for me as a student, it almost certainly will have an impact on me as a professional academic, but most disturbingly it will damage the chances people like me from lower class backgrounds have and that isn't something I can stomach so I went on the protest march yesterday.

[drinksinbars]

The Tyrant Lizard, on 01 December 2010 - 10:13 AM, said:

This thread is about the students rioting isnt it? Those idiots who kicked apart the police vans and stole the riot gear and graffitted all over london landmarks are a fucking disgrace - regardless of whether or not their tuition fees have gone up. And so what if they have? There's a recession going on isn't there? When the country's coffers are empty and everything's going down the pan cuts need to be made and changes need to be implemented.

Everyone's suffering through this time, but it's only the students who have taken to smashing up the country that is giving them the education they want. Those ones who were seen on tele rioting should be hunting down... I hear you can get a half decent degree in prison - and you dont have to pay a penny for that.

Seems you also only have to pay if your english with makes me smile but dont half seem stupid. For example an english person studying in wales must pay the full new fees while a welsh student in england doesnt. The hypocrisy of it really beggars belief.

This post has been edited by drinksinbars: 01 December 2010 - 01:19 PM

[Thelomen Toblerone]

The Tyrant Lizard, on 01 December 2010 - 10:13 AM, said:

This thread is about the students rioting isnt it? Those idiots who kicked apart the police vans and stole the riot gear and graffitted all over london landmarks are a fucking disgrace - regardless of whether or not their tuition fees have gone up. And so what if they have? There's a recession going on isn't there? When the country's coffers are empty and everything's going down the pan cuts need to be made and changes need to be implemented.

Out of thousands of students protesting, about a dozen tried to smash the van. More than that were photographed trying to stop it being smashed. A more sizeable proportion of people in this country supported the fascist movement in the '30s, but nobody claims the British were effectivelu Nazis at that time - tarring everybody with the same brush is a ludicrous step.

The coffers may be running low, the issue is the way in which they're being spent. Everybody accepts cuts need to be made to some degree, but to say "sorry but we cant afford this, you're all going to have to pay more despite promises to the contrary", and at the same time let Vodafone off a £6billion tax bill is a fairly good indication of why people might be a tiny weeny bit pissed off, as a starter.

This post has been edited by Thelomen Toblerone: 02 December 2010 - 01:30 AM

[The Tyrant Lizard]

Thelomen Toblerone, on 02 December 2010 - 01:29 AM, said:

The Tyrant Lizard, on 01 December 2010 - 10:13 AM, said:

This thread is about the students rioting isnt it? Those idiots who kicked apart the police vans and stole the riot gear and graffitted all over london landmarks are a fucking disgrace - regardless of whether or not their tuition fees have gone up. And so what if they have? There's a recession going on isn't there? When the country's coffers are empty and everything's going down the pan cuts need to be made and changes need to be implemented.

Out of thousands of students protesting, about a dozen tried to smash the van. More than that were photographed trying to stop it being smashed. A more sizeable proportion of people in this country supported the fascist movement in the '30s, but nobody claims the British were effectivelu Nazis at that time - tarring everybody with the same brush is a ludicrous step.

The coffers may be running low, the issue is the way in which they're being spent. Everybody accepts cuts need to be made to some degree, but to say "sorry but we cant afford this, you're all going to have to pay more despite promises to the contrary", and at the same time let Vodafone off a £6billion tax bill is a fairly good indication of why people might be a tiny weeny bit pissed off, as a starter.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

I have no problem with any of the peaceful protesters at all. They are unhappy about whats happening and we happen to live in a free speaking country where it is thankfully legal to protest and aire your views. My qualm is with the small percentage who rioted. That is not legal, that is counter productive to all the other people who took there time to go and stand in the freezing cold, and that small minority should pay for breaking the law.

What happens when those prats who are throwing things at coppers hurts one of them, and the police retaliate in their heavy handed way... I think it's quite possible those others will see fellow students being beaten by the police and move to assist them. Before you know it you have a fully fledged riot on your hands

[King Lear]

Feel like adding my two cents too.

I always have to laugh at people who say they're "working-class". It's so defensive. My parents are "working-class". Or they were to begin with, anyway. Happily, they don't have the sense of inadequacy that some people have when confronted by 'university education'. I bet you many of those kids who protested came from work-class families. The idea of the hordes of students who drink away their allowances, fail every paper, and simply re-enrol is a myth propagated by ignorant people who feel threatened and therefore denigrate something because they don't understand it. I don't look down on you because of your choice to work, don't look down on me because I chose to further my education.

People don't seem to realise that the world has changed. It's not as easy to leave school and start working any more. A lot of previously apprenticeship based are now taught through tertiary institutions, and guess what, unless you already have the capital, you pay for them through student loans, unless your parents are super rich, or super poor. And most of us fall into the middle. At least that's the way it is here. Besides, the government has just announced that they're redirecting money from polytechnics into universities, because the pass rates are higher. Gah.

To all the haters, I've just finished my BA English/History conjoint, and going on to honours in English. (Oooh Nooo it's Waste of Time Degree!) Just because you can only think in a linear fashion, doesn't mean that's the way the rest of us think. I know what I want to do (finally) and my 'waste of time' degree is going to get me there. And even if it didn't, it still wouldn't mean that I've wasted my time or money. And no, I'm not doing teaching. I respect those who chose to do it, but it's not for me. Education is important, and I chose what I wanted to study because it interested me. So there.

[Shinrei]

There is no such thing as a waste of time degree.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Shinrei, on 03 December 2010 - 03:20 AM, said:

There is no such thing as a waste of time degree.

I disagree. At Berkeley, there's a major that is "Peace and Conflict Studies" which has 2 problems.
1. being that it's a major that ends in 'studies'
2. being that it's actually misnamed, and is better called "Peace Studies"

The bonus 3rd problem is that it is essentially the Undergraduate Unemployment Major.

[maro]

The proles are protesting as the lawmakers got there education for free.

Cause and effect really.

[Mezla PigDog]

The Tyrant Lizard, on 01 December 2010 - 10:13 AM, said:

Everyone's suffering through this time, but it's only the students who have taken to smashing up the country that is giving them the education they want.

Not everyone is suffering actually. The people who aren't suffering are the ones who got good educations from top universities (the ones that are going to charge the full £9k a year). I haven't been directly affected by the recession at all and neither have any of my friends. What we all have in common is a cheap high quality education giving us the social mobility to be in stable employment sectors (I will probably eat my words when the austerity measures really kick in though).

Me and my other half paid top up fees and had student loans. We both took the option of doing phds as well because even though it meant our debt would grow, we'd have more of a competitive edge in the employment market. By the time we were 25 we had a combined debt of about £40k. Knock on effects of that are delaying getting a mortgage, delaying starting a family, buying fewer taxable goods. A knock on beneficial effect for the government is that we pay higher income tax, so we're paying out of both ends. I'm not complaining, I made my choices well aware of the reality but to expect people to come out of university at the age of 21 with a debt of £27k + student loans and a substandard education due to cuts is just totally shitty. Kids from lower middle income families will not be able to appreciate the cost benefit (if there even is one) of going to uni and coming out with such a huge debt. All the while, the families that have benefited from previous generations of free or cheap education will just get richer. I have to work with people from those kinds of backgrounds every day and to see the way society is stacked in their favour just makes me sick. They're all complete dicks, they're not that bright because they haven't risen due to merit and their entitlement mentality is why the country is where it is right now.

Stop the world, I want to get off

[Aptorian]

Oh noes, they attacked Charles' Limosine! The horror!

[Traveller]

@ Mez... agree totally. What i can't believe is that they're saying poorer students will be better off (!) and will still be able to go to Uni 'as the debt only has to be paid once they're earning X amount.'

This is crap. As soon as the degree ends, so does the 'interest free' bit. So if you don't fall into a higher end job straight away, which most people don't, the debt increases... and increases, while it is not being paid off.

I don't regret doing my degree, but I still have a 10k debt, 10 years after I went to uni, and I have a decent job now. But for a while back there after uni, i was just paying interest. Coming out of uni with 20k plus debt is no way to start anything, it is a huge burden, and I no longer think it's worth it.

(It's possible that under the guise of 'necessary cutbacks,' the problem of the huge increase in university applicants and the devaluing of the degree is being addressed. As a result of the price hike, fewer people will apply and those that do will be the reasonably well off - in other words, how it used to be, with only around 10% going on to higher education.)

This post has been edited by Traveller: 10 December 2010 - 12:51 PM

[The Tyrant Lizard]

Jenisapt Rul, on 10 December 2010 - 09:00 AM, said:

Oh noes, they attacked Charles' Limosine! The horror!

You think attacking the heir to the thone of Enlgald is a trivial matter? If a stray brick had hit him in the head and killed him I'd say that was pretty disastrous. I think shots whould have been fired as soon as those idiots ambushed the car. It's about as lawless and illigal as you can get, not to mention treasonous.

And as for the other knob heads who defaced the statue of Churchill I wonder what they think they are proving. Once again the student demos have been overun by a bunch of anarchist idiots and I dont see enough people condeming them. And now what are they doing? Complaining about police brutality. It makes my blood boil. They had an agreed route to march on and when the anarchist(call em what you like they probably arent students) broke away and stormed parlament, the peaceful demonstrators should have stayed on the alloted course. And they have the gall to moan about kettling? What do they want the police to do? They should thank there lucky stars water cannons and tear gas wasnt used, because some of them fucking idiots deserved worse than that

[champ]

The Tyrant Lizard, on 10 December 2010 - 12:11 PM, said:

Jenisapt Rul, on 10 December 2010 - 09:00 AM, said:

Oh noes, they attacked Charles' Limosine! The horror!

You think attacking the heir to the thone of Enlgald is a trivial matter? If a stray brick had hit him in the head and killed him I'd say that was pretty disastrous. I think shots whould have been fired as soon as those idiots ambushed the car. It's about as lawless and illigal as you can get, not to mention treasonous.

The whole incident was absolutely shocking, can you imagine if that was somewhere like America and it was the Presidents car... Safe to say a few would of been shot and they would of deserved it...

[Aptorian]

Yeah, how dare these angry people getting shafted by their government protest! What is this, some kind of democracy or something!? They should obviously be killed for such an affront to this bastion of aristocratic superiority.

Yes, the protest was getting out of hand, but seriously, how stupid would you be to send any authority figure through a group of disgruntled citizens and not expect an aggressive reaction.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

It's certainly true that they should have expected that very same reaction from the angry crowd. In fairness, however, the royal family has nothing to do with it, and the crowd shouldn't have targeted them in the first place. But whatever--small potatoes, and a distraction from the more important issue at hand (the tuition hike).

Sadly, my own university will be raising tuition by about 113% in the very near future. We may well find ourselves on strike--grad students especially, since our stipends won't be increased, nor will we be exempt from tuition fees (as we should be). Still, our situation is nothing like as dire as it seems in the UK.

[Sir Thursday]

I really wish I had the ability to comment on this issue with any degree of relevance. But since I come from a reasonably well-off middle class background, my parents could afford to subsidize me through university instead of taking a student loan, and help me pay off my tuition fee debt afterwards. And had I had any debt afterwards because of higher tuition fees, well, I walked into a well-paid and secure job, so those would have gone away in due course anyway. So to be honest, my tertiary education experience would have been pretty much unaffected by the changes the government are proposing, and I have limited to no knowledge of the extra struggle this will cause others.

I will now proceed to ask a series of questions that, given the above, I am curious to know the answers to.

- Will the knowledge of the amount of debt going to University will create prevent people from getting a degree, bearing in mind that they're not going to be paying off the debt until years after they make the decision to be saddled with it?

- What separates someone whos parents are well enough off to do so but don't, and someone whos family cannot afford to help them pay it off? Is the social mobility of these two hypothetical individuals not the same once they've finished university?

- To what extent does the Student Loan that is available to everyone cover the cost of living? (I should note that as a relatively frugal non-drinker, my cost of living was probably a lot lower than a lot of other people)

[Mentalist]

dunno about UK, but in Canada, (at least in my case), government loans can cover cost of living. mind you, my parents paid for my rent for 3 years of uni and helped me pay off half my debt after graduation (when I found myself with an...impractical degree in a province in throes of recession), but they then made it clear that if I was to stay under their roof, I am expected to pay a 3rd of the mortgage. and I've heard (and met) plenty of people in uni who did not get government loans and had to go to banks for help.

for my law degree, I probably could've made due with the amount of money I got from the government this year to survive. however when I applied for a faculty bursary, my balance sheet for the year showed a 7 grand deficit. I would've probably made due by cutting most expenses (finding a part-time job helped too), but once again, not sure how typical i'd be.

in regard to your second question (social mobility): this is considered when government grants loans here. if it deems your family able to help you pay back your loan, they will expect them to contribute right away, and your loan would be smaller, based on your calculated need. (undergraduate loans require financial statements from both parents on application. strangely, my post-undergrad loan did not require anything but my own financial info). so the difference would be (in Canadian perceptive, once again), that the individual whose family can't help him pay off the loan will know why he got the loan, and the ones who can help him pay it off would not get the loan in the first place. or he'd get less, making it likely the family would help out to begin with.

also, due to the spread of the belief "no degree==no career", the existence of loans and debt is acknowledged as a fact of life. few people question it, and it isn't a big deterrent. those who don't want the debt work themselves to death in the summer months to reduce debt as much as possible, but I wouldn't say that from my point of view the almost necessity of loans deters people fro m going to school here.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

Basic education is a right, but an advanced degree is a luxury, a privilege. If you find it difficult to afford, then suck it up. If it is going to bankrupt you, take time off, earn some money. If you cannot, then that sucks.

It is never going to be fair. Never. Going. To. Be. Fair. Such is life.

[worry]

Adjutant Stormy, on 11 December 2010 - 06:53 AM, said:

It is never going to be fair. Never. Going. To. Be. Fair. Such is life.

Funny how this would sound like dour pessimism coming from a progressive, yet sounds like such satisfied, fulfilled idealism from the right. Life's a competition, not a collaboration, after all.