[Abyss]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 17 November 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:

@Abyss's microgate comment, Rand does use gateways to kill Trollocs en masse. The swirl around and the edges cut through anything while the Trollocs that go through them just instant die. They're called Deathgates or something.

Yep - now picture a dozen really tiny ones being thrown at, or opened in, Taim's headparts. THAT'S what i'm hoping for.

Illuyankas, on 17 November 2010 - 06:34 PM, said:

I do have one little quibble, though. Thirteen books and no balefiresaber?

A distinct fail. Tho Rand did have a power created fire sword or something back in TSR or thereabouts. I don't think we've seen it since then tho'.
(that's your cue Terez...)

[acesn8s]

Illuyankas, on 17 November 2010 - 06:34 PM, said:

I do have one little quibble, though. Thirteen books and no balefiresaber?

From days of long ago, from uncharted regions of the universe, comes a legend
. . .
Form blazing sword!

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Terez, on 17 November 2010 - 01:28 PM, said:

McLovin, on 16 November 2010 - 07:15 PM, said:

Terez, on 16 November 2010 - 04:33 PM, said:

There is a wealth of connectivity in WoT that will keep it alive in the academia for hundreds of years to come.

*spews Diet Pepsi all over desk*

Say WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!

The academia, you know. People who have more refined taste than random fuckheads on the internet people who drink Diet Pepsi.

amphibian, on 17 November 2010 - 05:59 AM, said:

Terez, on 16 November 2010 - 04:33 PM, said:

There is a wealth of connectivity in WoT that will keep it alive in the academia for hundreds of years to come.

She's too close to the topic to be objective about this. I would be surprised if WoT is making any academic waves 25 years from now.

Johann Sebastian Bach's sons were convinced that their father's music would fall into obscurity during their lifetimes. They were correct, in a way. His music was old-fashioned. 'Fugues are so 100 years ago, dad!' This has less to do with my personal preferences and more to do with the fact that there is so much to discuss in WoT. The details aren't dead ends like they are in most contemporary fantasy.

Terez, I am kinda with you...
....
....
....
uh
.....
.....
no, wait...-
.....
shit, I thought you were talking about Tolkien !
Now I realize - you are talking about...Jordan...

Aw my Gawd - this is gonna be...tricky...

Honey, with all due respect, and I respect that you are THE WoT-fangirl and you are ab-so-lu-te-ly !!!! cozy with Sanderson...but...
...
...
...
...but...
...
...
...Jordan/WoT is just a Tolkien-rip-off...

Your so-called Ubertrope is simply the amplified trope of an existing trope. There is no Sebastian Bach here, because Bach was ORIGINAL (!!), while RJ is a COPYCAT !!.
Of all the Tolkien-copycats maybe the best one, but still just a copycat. And that will not give him centuries of discussion, and decade-wise maybe some major footnote value, at best...when you discuss Tolkienesque tropes. I am with Amphibian on that one. Please don´t try to convince me otherwise, especially bringing up bestselling lists and such, because next thing ye know, you´ll try to tell me that Stephenie Meyers is SOOO wiping Bram Stoker´s incompetent pussy arse off the floor...

Oh, BTW - re that *SE is just a big RPG-campaign, while RJ is eternal literary greatness*...- how about this ?: Gandalf the Grey gets creamed by Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey creams the Balrog, returns as Gandalf the White, who creams Saruman...- and the blueprint for all RPG/D&D-shyte was born...
Show me the fantasy literature that does lean heavily on RPG-elements (and THAT includes very explicitly your own AUTHORGOD i.e. Rand-farmerboy-badass magician-whatever) and I show you the world...excluding GRRM, who does more a GGK-thang, in this sense, and Abercrombie, who traded RPG for torture porn...;0)

Gush about RJ all you want, I do not mind - but DARN !! - PLEASE know your genre, dammit...!?

[Abyss]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 17 November 2010 - 11:45 PM, said:

......Jordan/WoT is just a Tolkien-rip-off...

Cannot agree with you there. Cannot even close to agree with you there.

That's like saying every sf novel that involves a spaceship is just a rip from old Buck Rogers pulps.

Quote

...because next thing ye know, you´ll try to tell me that Stephenie Meyers is SOOO wiping Bram Stoker´s...

You're mixing up tropes with themes with basic concepts..., again, that's like saying ANY vampire story ever written is just a Stoker rip.

Stoker didn't invent vampires and Tolkien didn't invent the heroic fantasy quest against the evil Dark Lord and I could go on... it seems that your point is that everything is a rip of something else and that's too narrow to reflect reality. Sure we could trace themes, common mythological origins and general plot concepts back to Aristotle's Poetics or something similarly ancient, that's not the point.

The point is that RJ wrote (and BS is finishing) a massive, ten/thirteen/whatever volume fantasy epic that incorporates everything it does. Degree of complexity or relative originality have nothing on the point that it is what it is and nothing Tolkien did was ever on the same scale or even level of popularity before the movies came out, imnsho.

Thus...

Quote

...Gush about RJ all you want, I do not mind - but DARN !! - PLEASE know your genre, dammit...!?

Tolkien did not invent the genre. He made a benchmark in it, and there is no denying his influence, but there is no denying what RJ did with WoT either.

There are flaws, sure. but frankly, and subjectively, RJ's thirtieth sniffing Aes Sedai crossing her arms was still less irritating to me than my first reading of Tom Bombadil. Given the choice i'll re-read WoT before i ever bother with LotR again. But that's my take.

Terez thinks WoT is da bomb and that's her informed opinion and she's as entitled to it as you are to your 'everything is ripping off everything else' point of view.

But DARN !! - PLEASE know the difference between a rip off and a similar idea, dammit.

[champ]

Why is it that since the films were made most think fantasy begins/ends with Tolkien and LoTR...

Personally I think WoT is an utter bore of a read but I dont try and force this opinion on anyone else...

This post has been edited by champooon: 18 November 2010 - 04:16 PM

[amphibian]

champooon, on 18 November 2010 - 04:15 PM, said:

Why is it that since the films were made most think fantasy begins/ends with Tolkien and LoTR...

Personally I think WoT is an utter bore of a read but I dont try and force this opinion on anyone else...

For the first few books, it's actually not that much of a bore. It's... really familiar rehashing of tropes that have succeeded before in different permutations. Terez's criticism of Erikson's MBotF as an RPG campaign is somewhat true - as that is indeed the origin of the world and characters - yet I perceive Erikson as being much better at making the characters on the page real and meaningful to the reader.

I believe Terez's knowledge of the SF field to be pretty good. I don't question her knowledge of that at all; what I'm disagreeing with is the specific value she's placing upon the academic half-life of WoT.

Bach wasn't wholly original, but he was one of the very best exponents of his style of music ever. I'm not sure I can say WoT is similar in that fashion, which is why I think it will not remain alive in academic discussions for as long as Terez believes. Off the top of my head, the few absolutely massive single story series that have actually survived in academic discussion for a very long time are truly works of genius and often associated with religion (Divine Comedy, Mahabharata etc.) Proust's A la recherche du temps perdu is perhaps the most recent big one (other than the Tolkien fad) and I know nobody who has actually read the dang thing. Cormac McCarthy's Border trilogy and Updike's Rabbit series have some academic discussion, but they won't make it a hundred years.

Editing yet again - According to Justice Breyer, "fewer than 2 percent of all copyrighted works retain any commercial value after seventy-five years."

This post has been edited by amphibian: 18 November 2010 - 08:14 PM

[champ]

amphibian, on 18 November 2010 - 06:38 PM, said:

champooon, on 18 November 2010 - 04:15 PM, said:

Why is it that since the films were made most think fantasy begins/ends with Tolkien and LoTR...

Personally I think WoT is an utter bore of a read but I dont try and force this opinion on anyone else...

For the first few books, it's actually not that much of a bore. It's... really familiar rehashing of tropes that have succeeded before in different permutations.

I stuck it out until maybe 200 pages into the fourth book and that was a battle, and for the first time reading a series (actually bought the first 6 WoT too) I just didnt want to read on...

And bloody hell, I've managed to stick out some dire, dire series just because I wanted to know what happened overall, including Tom Lloyd, Ian Irvine and Adrian Tchaikovsky... Forgive me father!

But you know, I feel it's a shame because I wanted to enjoy reading this series and see what all the acclaim was about! That's why I purchased the first 6 books...

Everyones taste to their own...

[HoosierDaddy]

Heh, you should have kept going. Books 4, 5, and 6 are (imo) the best in the series.

[acesn8s]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 17 November 2010 - 11:45 PM, said:

Oh, BTW - re that *SE is just a big RPG-campaign, while RJ is eternal literary greatness*...- how about this ?: Gandalf the Grey gets creamed by Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey creams the Balrog, returns as Gandalf the White, who creams Saruman...- and the blueprint for all RPG/D&D-shyte was born...

Actually in 1950 Jack Vance's The Dying Earth was released. The Lord of the Rings didn't come out intil 1954 (fellowship). The Dying Earth was the basis for the D&D magic system. A mage can only remember a certain number of spells and once they cast them the spell leaves their memory until they memorize it again. Hell, one of the spells in the books was called The Excellent Prismatic Spray.

It would surprise me if the WoT became a mainstream topic for academia, but a school here or there including it or at least the first book in a class could happen.

[Abyss]

H.D., on 18 November 2010 - 09:56 PM, said:

Heh, you should have kept going. Books 4, 5, and 6 are (imo) the best in the series.

True. 4 starts slow and is a bit of shift of focus but it ends big and 5-6 are great.

Tho really i suppose if you aren't on board enough by the end of 3 to stick around then it's likely not worth the thinkytime.

- Abyss, ...won't get into the 7-10 thing just now...

[Spiridon_Deannis]

amphibian, on 18 November 2010 - 06:38 PM, said:

champooon, on 18 November 2010 - 04:15 PM, said:

Why is it that since the films were made most think fantasy begins/ends with Tolkien and LoTR...

Personally I think WoT is an utter bore of a read but I dont try and force this opinion on anyone else...

For the first few books, it's actually not that much of a bore. It's... really familiar rehashing of tropes that have succeeded before in different permutations. Terez's criticism of Erikson's MBotF as an RPG campaign is somewhat true - as that is indeed the origin of the world and characters - yet I perceive Erikson as being much better at making the characters on the page real and meaningful to the reader.

I believe Terez's knowledge of the SF field to be pretty good. I don't question her knowledge of that at all; what I'm disagreeing with is the specific value she's placing upon the academic half-life of WoT.

Bach wasn't wholly original, but he was one of the very best exponents of his style of music ever. I'm not sure I can say WoT is similar in that fashion, which is why I think it will not remain alive in academic discussions for as long as Terez believes. Off the top of my head, the few absolutely massive single story series that have actually survived in academic discussion for a very long time are truly works of genius and often associated with religion (Divine Comedy, Mahabharata etc.) Proust's A la recherche du temps perdu is perhaps the most recent big one (other than the Tolkien fad) and I know nobody who has actually read the dang thing. Cormac McCarthy's Border trilogy and Updike's Rabbit series have some academic discussion, but they won't make it a hundred years.

Editing yet again - According to Justice Breyer, "fewer than 2 percent of all copyrighted works retain any commercial value after seventy-five years."

Thank ye, can live with this. What I want to get at & I don´t give a flying fuck if I uberformulated it in my first post (because there is NO business like motherfucking showbusiness, my dears *gg*): Nobody is going to be discussing WoT decades from now, let alone centuries ! WHO the fuck originated WHAT at the end ? Who cares, as long as it is well written ? Now, when I take the first tome of WoT, put it side to side with FotR, and see that it follows the structure almost explicitly & in detail to the core, THAT is not similarity - THAT is rip-off ! Sorry. Now, the dude made something of it between tomes 2-5, then it slowly became *repetition fest* between tomes 6-7 and from tome 8 onwards it was shitfest until replacement dude took over...by which time I just didn´t give a shit anymore...

@Abyss: As a first reflex, I´d second you on fat whimsical fuck over braidtugbitch...but on second thought, I´ll take FWF anytime...simply because Ye Ole Brit Dude kicked the fat fuck after one chapter...easily cut away like as pinky...but Jordan-dude keeps BTB all! the! way! along!...you wanna cut THAT, it ain´t a pinky, it is a motherfucking lung you have to slice out there !

Spiridon - who doesn´t give a shit about similar or original, just about some good reading stuff...

[Spiridon_Deannis]

champooon, on 18 November 2010 - 04:15 PM, said:

Why is it that since the films were made most think fantasy begins/ends with Tolkien and LoTR...

Lurvvv that argument ! Here goes !:

Why is it that since fantasy was written most think that since films were made about LoTR most think fantasy begins/ends with Tolkien and LoTR...?

OK, your turn now ! I firmly expect that, by the end of the year, we grow this zero-value baby to a whopping two pages !!

champooon, on 18 November 2010 - 04:15 PM, said:

Personally I think WoT is an utter bore of a read but I dont try and force this opinion on anyone else...

I agree on the first part. The second part implies thast you do not like to express opinions...uh...whoa...wait a second...parts 1 and 2 conflict...so does that mean you do not like OTHERS to express opinions if they are not formulated in a wishy-washy p.c. way...?

[Abyss]

@Spiri - you want to maybe edit those posts into something that makes sense so we can discuss rather than decipher wtf you're trying to say?


If your basic point in there somewhere is that as long as its good we shouldn't care who it's similar to (which i would agree with) then why rest your opinion on the notion that RJ ripped off JRRT? Who cares as long as RJ did something interesting with it - which he did and got the sales dollars to prove it. One would have to eject large chunks of fantasy lit if every story that ever started with dark stangers and/or mysterious allies sending naive under-powered youth out into the big bad world to find/destroy/rescue the widget and/or kill/exile/defeat/shag the Big Bad were all automatically rendered crap on that basis, then i direct your attention to Lewis, Alexander, Stackpole, Cooper, Eddings, Feist, Weis, Hickman, Weeks, Butcher and even oh god there goes my eyes bleeding Goodkind and call bullshit on that position because millions of readers and more millions of dollars says you're wrong.

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Abyss, on 19 November 2010 - 12:10 AM, said:

@Spiri - you want to maybe edit those posts into something that makes sense so we can discuss rather than decipher wtf you're trying to say?


If your basic point in there somewhere is that as long as its good we shouldn't care who it's similar to (which i would agree with) then why rest your opinion on the notion that RJ ripped off JRRT? Who cares as long as RJ did something interesting with it - which he did and got the sales dollars to prove it. One would have to eject large chunks of fantasy lit if every story that ever started with dark stangers and/or mysterious allies sending naive under-powered youth out into the big bad world to find/destroy/rescue the widget and/or kill/exile/defeat/shag the Big Bad were all automatically rendered crap on that basis, then i direct your attention to Lewis, Alexander, Stackpole, Cooper, Eddings, Feist, Weis, Hickman, Weeks, Butcher and even oh god there goes my eyes bleeding Goodkind and call bullshit on that position because millions of readers and more millions of dollars says you're wrong.

No need to direct - except for the Dragonlance crap, I have at least something of most of these authors. Why don´t we break it down to the simplest common denominator, because you are trying to wag the dog with the tail & this whole discussion started with that very peculiar statement of a fangirl about *mankind discussing RJ´s ubertropes for centuries to come*. My position is simply *Honey, I don´t fucking think so. Keep dreaming*.

Re sales volumes ? C´mon, you wanna use THAT as a quality indicator ??? Darned, and I always thought that one of the big differentials of MBotF is that it is too sophisticated/;demanding for mass market success. What happened to Eat shit, millions of flies can´t be wrong ? Somehow I get the impression you are being overly defensive because you like WoT and you are gushing about Sandersons last instalment. Dude, don´t let me stop you in your pursuit of happiness - I just don´t dig that particular cycle (anymore). Now if you gave me ths kind of shyte over Goodkind, yes, I would have to rip your head off and examine it for complete lack of brain cells...

[Black Winged Lord]

Best new term - "it was called a balescream - a moment when all of creation howled in pain"

[amphibian]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 19 November 2010 - 01:20 AM, said:

this whole discussion started with that very peculiar statement of a fangirl about *mankind discussing RJ´s ubertropes for centuries to come*. My position is simply *Honey, I don´t fucking think so. Keep dreaming*.

Terez is a longstanding member of the forum who has contributed excellently to discussion. And she is no mere fangirl. I'd say maybe three people on the planet know as much about WoT as she does. She's up to her eyeballs in this stuff 24/7 and I give her respect for the incredible amount of work she puts into scholarly-like exegesis of WoT things. It's kind of terrifying once you realize how intense she is about this stuff and how much she truly does know about it.

I disagree with her statement, but not because the books are bad or because she has no clue what she's talking about. I believe that there's a lot there in terms of connections to make, but that vanishingly few people will care enough about this stuff - especially after the efforts of TheoryLand peeps have ceased - to keep going at it over the next few decades.

Quote

Re sales volumes ? C´mon, you wanna use THAT as a quality indicator ??? Darned, and I always thought that one of the big differentials of MBotF is that it is too sophisticated/;demanding for mass market success.

I do believe MBotF to be sophisticated beyond the majority of literary works out there. I would also like Erikson to sell a bajillion books and be richly rewarded for his work. The two could go together just peachy in my head. Sophistication and enormous success aren't always mutually exclusive, but it is kind of a bummer that the two don't meet as often as they should.

In the meantime, relax a little, Spiridon. You're new here and coming off a bit harsh. Considering that I'm one of the forum grump regulars who routinely minorly offends other people, take it to heart and ease up a little.

[Spiridon_Deannis]

amphibian, on 19 November 2010 - 03:03 AM, said:

Spiridon_Deannis, on 19 November 2010 - 01:20 AM, said:

this whole discussion started with that very peculiar statement of a fangirl about *mankind discussing RJ´s ubertropes for centuries to come*. My position is simply *Honey, I don´t fucking think so. Keep dreaming*.

Terez is a longstanding member of the forum who has contributed excellently to discussion. And she is no mere fangirl. I'd say maybe three people on the planet know as much about WoT as she does. She's up to her eyeballs in this stuff 24/7 and I give her respect for the incredible amount of work she puts into scholarly-like exegesis of WoT things. It's kind of terrifying once you realize how intense she is about this stuff and how much she truly does know about it.

I disagree with her statement, but not because the books are bad or because she has no clue what she's talking about. I believe that there's a lot there in terms of connections to make, but that vanishingly few people will care enough about this stuff - especially after the efforts of TheoryLand peeps have ceased - to keep going at it over the next few decades.

Quote

Re sales volumes ? C´mon, you wanna use THAT as a quality indicator ??? Darned, and I always thought that one of the big differentials of MBotF is that it is too sophisticated/;demanding for mass market success.

I do believe MBotF to be sophisticated beyond the majority of literary works out there. I would also like Erikson to sell a bajillion books and be richly rewarded for his work. The two could go together just peachy in my head. Sophistication and enormous success aren't always mutually exclusive, but it is kind of a bummer that the two don't meet as often as they should.

In the meantime, relax a little, Spiridon. You're new here and coming off a bit harsh. Considering that I'm one of the forum grump regulars who routinely minorly offends other people, take it to heart and ease up a little.

Well hello, amphibian. Thank you for your clarifying words, helps me see things in a better perspective. I will not dispute Terez` understanding or indepth knowledge of WoT, that seems to be her undisputed turf (&I´m outa there), but the *century*-thing...? I´m sorry, man - indepth-knowledge does not necessarily imply judgement. Just my two cents.
Re then combo *New & Harsh*...kinda funny that, at the end of all discussions, the "ole boys" will insist on being the "ole boys"...- just hang out for 4-5 years, puke out some 1000-2000 tripes, and darn ! any shyte will be pardoned, because ye been around ! Makes ya think. Now don´t take this as a specific take on Terez, but on the general dynamics of these boards...Internet is a motherfucking cruel mistress, that´s all....

And yeah, would be nice if MBotF sold more, but realistically ? What crowd would we be talking about ? The whiners over at Westeros ? How do you sell a +/- 6000 page story arc that started heating up with HoC to a mass market crowd ?

[D'rek]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 19 November 2010 - 01:20 AM, said:

Abyss, on 19 November 2010 - 12:10 AM, said:

@Spiri - you want to maybe edit those posts into something that makes sense so we can discuss rather than decipher wtf you're trying to say?


If your basic point in there somewhere is that as long as its good we shouldn't care who it's similar to (which i would agree with) then why rest your opinion on the notion that RJ ripped off JRRT? Who cares as long as RJ did something interesting with it - which he did and got the sales dollars to prove it. One would have to eject large chunks of fantasy lit if every story that ever started with dark stangers and/or mysterious allies sending naive under-powered youth out into the big bad world to find/destroy/rescue the widget and/or kill/exile/defeat/shag the Big Bad were all automatically rendered crap on that basis, then i direct your attention to Lewis, Alexander, Stackpole, Cooper, Eddings, Feist, Weis, Hickman, Weeks, Butcher and even oh god there goes my eyes bleeding Goodkind and call bullshit on that position because millions of readers and more millions of dollars says you're wrong.

No need to direct - except for the Dragonlance crap, I have at least something of most of these authors. Why don´t we break it down to the simplest common denominator, because you are trying to wag the dog with the tail & this whole discussion started with that very peculiar statement of a fangirl about *mankind discussing RJ´s ubertropes for centuries to come*. My position is simply *Honey, I don´t fucking think so. Keep dreaming*.

Re sales volumes ? C´mon, you wanna use THAT as a quality indicator ??? Darned, and I always thought that one of the big differentials of MBotF is that it is too sophisticated/;demanding for mass market success. What happened to Eat shit, millions of flies can´t be wrong ? Somehow I get the impression you are being overly defensive because you like WoT and you are gushing about Sandersons last instalment. Dude, don´t let me stop you in your pursuit of happiness - I just don´t dig that particular cycle (anymore). Now if you gave me ths kind of shyte over Goodkind, yes, I would have to rip your head off and examine it for complete lack of brain cells...

Ah, but you see you're trying to shovel cement with a broken weed-trimmer, so we had better specify the common elements, otherwise we'll just be making peculiar statements for centuries to come, when the reality is and always has been that MBotF is worse than Goodkind. My position is simply *Buddy, you ain't a bag of potato chips. Fly little birdie*.

Comparing the most basic plot elements to LotR? C'mon, you wanna use THAT as a quality indicator ??? Darned, and I always thought that was one of the largely dead criticisms for the varied and imaginative contemporary fantasy series. What happened to It's not nearly as much of a LotR copycat as the Sword of Shannara? Somehow I get the impression you are feeling threatened by WoT's success and you are steaming about the latest instalment's continued exceptional sales. Dude, don't let me stop you in your pursuit of hatred - I just don't think it needs to be expressed in such incoherent, non-sensical rambles. Now, if you insist on declaring how you would gruesomely murder people simply because they had a different taste in genre fiction than you, I would have to express the belief that you will probably not fit in very well here...

amphibian, on 19 November 2010 - 03:03 AM, said:

Spiridon_Deannis, on 19 November 2010 - 01:20 AM, said:

this whole discussion started with that very peculiar statement of a fangirl about *mankind discussing RJ´s ubertropes for centuries to come*. My position is simply *Honey, I don´t fucking think so. Keep dreaming*.

Terez is a longstanding member of the forum who has contributed excellently to discussion. And she is no mere fangirl. I'd say maybe three people on the planet know as much about WoT as she does. She's up to her eyeballs in this stuff 24/7 and I give her respect for the incredible amount of work she puts into scholarly-like exegesis of WoT things. It's kind of terrifying once you realize how intense she is about this stuff and how much she truly does know about it.

I disagree with her statement, but not because the books are bad or because she has no clue what she's talking about. I believe that there's a lot there in terms of connections to make, but that vanishingly few people will care enough about this stuff - especially after the efforts of TheoryLand peeps have ceased - to keep going at it over the next few decades.

Quote

Re sales volumes ? C´mon, you wanna use THAT as a quality indicator ??? Darned, and I always thought that one of the big differentials of MBotF is that it is too sophisticated/;demanding for mass market success.

I do believe MBotF to be sophisticated beyond the majority of literary works out there. I would also like Erikson to sell a bajillion books and be richly rewarded for his work. The two could go together just peachy in my head. Sophistication and enormous success aren't always mutually exclusive, but it is kind of a bummer that the two don't meet as often as they should.

In the meantime, relax a little, Spiridon. You're new here and coming off a bit harsh. Considering that I'm one of the forum grump regulars who routinely minorly offends other people, take it to heart and ease up a little.

I was under the impression that academia pretty much ignored fantasy fiction as a whole...

[Abyss]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 19 November 2010 - 01:20 AM, said:

No need to direct - except for the Dragonlance crap, I have at least something of most of these authors. Why don´t we break it down to the simplest common denominator, because you are trying to wag the dog with the tail & this whole discussion started with that very peculiar statement of a fangirl about *mankind discussing RJ´s ubertropes for centuries to come*. My position is simply *Honey, I don´t fucking think so. Keep dreaming*.

Actually, Weis and Hickman have written more than just Dragonlance crap - try the DEATHGATE CYCLE, it's way better, and this whole discussion started because you jumped into a thread titled 'Abyss just finished Towers of Midnight another satisfied customer' apparently to disagree with people who liked the book. There are many other bright and shiny threads out there, maybe try some of those re stuff you actually liked?

Quote

Re sales volumes ? C´mon, you wanna use THAT as a quality indicator ??? Darned, and I always thought that one of the big differentials of MBotF is that it is too sophisticated/;demanding for mass market success.

Quality indicator no. far from it. Echoing Amphi i wish SE had that level of sales but the fact is the series doesn't draw the mass flies because it is different and attracts a much more discerning class of fly.

Quote

Somehow I get the impression you are being overly defensive because you like WoT and you are gushing about Sandersons last instalment. Dude, don´t let me stop you in your pursuit of happiness - I just don´t dig that particular cycle (anymore).

See above. it's your opinion and your entitled to it but do not step into a gush thread for the purpose of slamming people who do and expect to meet with mass love.

Quote

Now if you gave me ths kind of shyte over Goodkind, yes, I would have to rip your head off and examine it for complete lack of brain cells...

Nah. Goodkind makes my eyes bleed. I'm still vomitting blood over the sales comment upthread.

Spiridon_Deannis, on 19 November 2010 - 04:32 AM, said:

...e then combo *New & Harsh*...kinda funny that, at the end of all discussions, the "ole boys" will insist on being the "ole boys"...- just hang out for 4-5 years, puke out some 1000-2000 tripes, and darn ! any shyte will be pardoned, because ye been around ! Makes ya think. Now don´t take this as a specific take on Terez, but on the general dynamics of these boards...Internet is a motherfucking cruel mistress, that´s all....

Gee... new person shows up and shitemouths person who's been here a while and shocker, new person gets flack for it. Further shocker for you: That's not the internet. That's life. You want to wander into a new place and actually participate, try doing it with a brain instead of an attitude and maybe old boys won't be telling you you're out of line. You seem like a well read fantasy fan and you actually have something useful to throw in and hell, you like Malazan so you can't be beyond hope.
Somewhere upthread you even acheived coherence at least, so i'll leave it with that and go back to the point of the thread.

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And yeah, would be nice if MBotF sold more, but realistically ? What crowd would we be talking about ? The whiners over at Westeros ? How do you sell a +/- 6000 page story arc that started heating up with HoC to a mass market crowd ?

Good point. The RJ solution a la NEW SPRING would be to release dumbed down prequels to draw new readers in with easier material. I doubt he needed it because EYE is a pretty basic bring-in-the-naive-farmboys series opener, but there it is.
I wonder whether NOK, given a slightly different set up, might have been that and helped people over the infamous GotM 200, but that's a Malazan topic for elseforum. And there's a whole chunk of people here who came in via Westeros by way of the many many 'i've been waiting sixteen years for the next SIF book, what else should i try?' threads.

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Black Winged Lord, on 19 November 2010 - 02:15 AM, said:

Best new term - "it was called a balescream - a moment when all of creation howled in pain"

Seconded.

Speaking of which, and how creepy was that bit at the end when Rand told the Borderlanders their beating would have been grounds for balefire even with the block on the One Power.

And then there's Perrin deflecting balefire in the dream. Nice touch, that.