[Gothos]

Hmm. Just askin', cos Prince of Nothing, Mistborn and MBotF will finish at some point and I was thinking about at least checking out WoT if the ending's decently done.

[HoosierDaddy]

You should at least read the first few to see if you can get into it. It is legendary for a reason.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 16 November 2010 - 10:05 AM

[Terez]

H.D., on 16 November 2010 - 08:06 AM, said:

But they will certainly try. It's a positive that while I despise the Aes Sedai as a mob (individually they tend to be better), I can understand Egwene's "rallying" kings and queens and other "allies" against Rand's crazy plan to break the seals. (That we all knew was coming ever since "The World of the Wheel of Time" came out and it detailed the sealing of the bore (kinda) and it's failure. Which is another of my minor annoyances, but I guess I can't fault overbearing foreshadowing as a literary device when it is outside the actual series.)

It might not be that simple, yo.

HD said:

I'm interested in Lanfear's visit to Rand in T.A.R. and what was going on there. No one else has brought it up, but her begging him for help I found intriguing, especially considering Graendal's likely new "hobbies."

I wrote a post on that too.

H.D., on 16 November 2010 - 09:39 AM, said:

@Gothos: Depends. It's a fun read, but entirely different than Erikson, Martin, Bakker, Abercrombie. It's good reading, but it is not going to push any boundaries for you.

If it's not pushing your boundaries then you're probably not paying attention. Simple on the surface, not-so-simple underneath.

[Chance]

Terez, on 16 November 2010 - 12:21 PM, said:

HD said:

I'm interested in Lanfear's visit to Rand in T.A.R. and what was going on there. No one else has brought it up, but her begging him for help I found intriguing, especially considering Graendal's likely new "hobbies."

I wrote a post on that too.

One of the interesting things with Lanfear just appearing like that in a way that could be a very clever ruse or trap just after that psycho myrdral told grendal that another choosen was on the job of ruining Rand.

/Chance

This post has been edited by Chance: 16 November 2010 - 01:09 PM

[Terez]

Yes, everyone assumes Shaidar Haran meant Cyndane. I doubt it. Partly because it seems unlikely that she was actually in his dream; it shouldn't be possible. Partly because we already had a clue that Demandred had been given this task:

RJ/BWS said:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
PROLOGUE - What the Storm Means

"I want Lews Therin," Demandred said, his voice deep, his expression dark, as always. "Semirhage knows that. She also knows that if she'd killed him, I would have found her and claimed her life in retribution. Nobody kills al'Thor. Nobody but me."



"You or the Great Lord, Demandred," Moridin said, voice dangerous. "His will dominates us all."

[Chance]

Terez, on 16 November 2010 - 01:11 PM, said:

Yes, everyone assumes Shaidar Haran meant Cyndane. I doubt it. Partly because it seems unlikely that she was actually in his dream; it shouldn't be possible. Partly because we already had a clue that Demandred had been given this task:

Found Shaidar Haran implying that something in who was going to do it changed. Still its that or a redemption arc because she is a cute misunderstood chosen...hopefully not. She could be bait I guess in which case both might be true

This post has been edited by Chance: 16 November 2010 - 01:23 PM

[Abyss]

HEY GOTHOS OVER HERE

Gothos, on 16 November 2010 - 09:29 AM, said:

I'm averting my eyes from all the spoilers, but I wanted to ask you guys: Is this book good enough to endure everything between The Great Hunt and this if I haven't already?

Yes.
There is a stretch in the middle that's tedious, but i imagine and others have told me that it's not nearly as bad read back to back as it was with years in between books. You don't suffer from wasted anticipation that pissed most of us off.

Teres, on 16 November 2010 - 09:39 AM, said:

H.D., on 16 November 2010 - 09:39 AM, said:

@Gothos: Depends. It's a fun read, but entirely different than Erikson, Martin, Bakker, Abercrombie. It's good reading, but it is not going to push any boundaries for you.

If it's not pushing your boundaries then you're probably not paying attention. Simple on the surface, not-so-simple underneath.

WoT is not on the same level as SE, GRRM and SB's work. Spiralling huge in scope and intricate in detail, with a cast of hundreds, but at heart it's a 'Good vs Evil, level up and fight the Big Bad' kind of story, and MBF, SIF and PON are anything but. That doesn't mean WoT isn't worth reading - its place in fantasy lit is solid and high and hey, even at his worse most tedious i'm-going-nowhere-fast chunks, RJ was outselling all the above authors and there is a reason for that.
I think Abercrombie is somewhere i the middle, btw.

NOW GO AWAY GOTHOS OR YOU'LL BE SPOILERED

Kurt Montandon, on 16 November 2010 - 07:59 AM, said:

Haven't really seen it mentioned, but I thought one of the best "Moments of Awesome" was Rand strolling into the White Tower and pretty much telling them how it was going to be ... and they couldn't do a damn thing about it.

I thought that was well done. I especially liked how in theory there were enough AS there to sheild and still him twelve times over, but there he was.

Anyone else think the 'show up and convince me not to break the seals' thing is just an excuse to prompt Egwene to gather all the monarchs so Rand can give them a 'peace or else' speach?

H.D., on 16 November 2010 - 08:06 AM, said:

...I'm interested in Lanfear's visit to Rand in T.A.R. and what was going on there. No one else has brought it up, but her begging him for help I found intriguing, especially considering Graendal's likely new "hobbies."

Yep. It screams TRAPPY TRAP FULL OF TRAPS, but...

Chance, on 16 November 2010 - 01:21 PM, said:

... Still its that or a redemption arc because she is a cute misunderstood chosen...hopefully not. She could be bait I guess in which case both might be true

While Moghedien and Admodean have gone thru 'help the good guys or else' storylines, we haven't actually seen a full-blown Foresaken change sides. It would be a nice touch if it was Lanfear who finally did, if a bit obvious. She's said more than once that her and Lews together could displace the Big Bad. It would be neat to see her try.

Cause, on 16 November 2010 - 08:53 AM, said:

Im actually hugely dissapointed with Egwene. ....

The point has been made more than once that people trust the AS, and for a thousand or so years that's exactly how its been, because of the 3 oaths, and without the oaths they are simply women channelers who can turn anyone who pisses them off into red paste. So sure it's reducing their lifespans from a thousand years to maybe 500 but that's the price.

And Egwene is hardly demanding that wise Ones and Sailmisteresses be ordered around by the White Tower. but what she was doing was making all three groups stronger by forging ties between them. She didn't demand their strongest channelers, or their ter-angreal, or anything. She offered exactly what she was asking for and it was an even exchange all around. Her inner monologue point wasn't 'soon i shall rule you all mawahaha!', rather, it was 'if i make this happen we all stand a better chance of surviving what's coming'. The Seanchan are still out there chaining women channelers, even if the Dragon wins the Big Finish.

And Egwene broke a Foresaken with her brain. Not enslaved. Not Balefired. Broke. With her brain. She's the only Aes Sedai to do that. Ever. Possibly the only person ever to do that. She wins.

Tattersail, on 16 November 2010 - 09:35 AM, said:

...what do you mean? i am going to read the glossary because I have not done so yet. but is there a reference to Asmodean in there?

Yes. Go read.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Terez, on 16 November 2010 - 12:21 PM, said:

H.D., on 16 November 2010 - 08:06 AM, said:

But they will certainly try. It's a positive that while I despise the Aes Sedai as a mob (individually they tend to be better), I can understand Egwene's "rallying" kings and queens and other "allies" against Rand's crazy plan to break the seals. (That we all knew was coming ever since "The World of the Wheel of Time" came out and it detailed the sealing of the bore (kinda) and it's failure. Which is another of my minor annoyances, but I guess I can't fault overbearing foreshadowing as a literary device when it is outside the actual series.)

It might not be that simple, yo.

Very detailed post, I was thinking though, it just makes sense for Rand to break the old seals to put something new down. I don't know if he could use the True Power to do it since its apparently controlled by the Dark One, but that would be a nice way of getting around the possibility of a retaliatory strike.

Also, explain this to me: Lanfear is the one that drilled the bore into the DO's prison way back in the AoL when she was still Mierin. So the war couldn't have started until after that, and even with the hole in his prison the DO didn't kill them all right away. Is there reason to expect that it would be different this time? I would think he'd be able to affect the world more greatly, and have a lot more influence over his minions, but its not like Rand and co. wouldn't have time to put another seal (or something like that) on the prison (assuming Rand has indeed gameplanned out how to do that).

[Terez]

Abyss, on 16 November 2010 - 03:47 PM, said:

Teres, on 16 November 2010 - 09:39 AM, said:

H.D., on 16 November 2010 - 09:39 AM, said:

@Gothos: Depends. It's a fun read, but entirely different than Erikson, Martin, Bakker, Abercrombie. It's good reading, but it is not going to push any boundaries for you.

If it's not pushing your boundaries then you're probably not paying attention. Simple on the surface, not-so-simple underneath.

WoT is not on the same level as SE, GRRM and SB's work. Spiralling huge in scope and intricate in detail, with a cast of hundreds, but at heart it's a 'Good vs Evil, level up and fight the Big Bad' kind of story, and MBF, SIF and PON are anything but

You are making an assumption here that this particular aspect of the books you named is 1) the most important one, and 2) as simple as you are making it out to be.

As to the second, WoT was never intended to be an anti-trope. It was intended to be the ubertrope. It was intended to take the most basic stories of our world - the ancient myths and legends that have become celebrated cultural tropes and even religions - and make them into a story that encompasses the unique details of all of them. Like Thom says in his very first scene of the series - 'I have all stories, mind you now, of Ages that were and will be.' And like RJ has said before, 'Many myths and legends of many different cultures are really the same story when you get to the heart of it.' Most people will notice a handful of those derivations and say, 'Oh look, RJ ripped off so-and-so!' But there are hundreds of details that fly right over the average reader's head. And like it or not - we the forumgoers of the Great Internetz are the average reader, despite how smart we are and how much detail retention we can harness simply by discussing our favorite books on a regular basis. There is a wealth of connectivity in WoT that will keep it alive in the academia for hundreds of years to come. I haven't read SB, and don't even know who it is, but from what I've seen, SE and GRRM don't have that. SE's greatest attributes as a writer are frequently demonized by the fan base - he's improved by miles as a writer in the last several books - but at the heart, Malazan is a heavily-built RPG world, and the series is often more akin to an RPG session than an actual story. I know I'm not the only reader to have started to lose interest right when Erikson's writing reached its peak.

Both GRRM and Erikson have attempted to be the anti-trope in the wake of RJ's success with WoT. It wasn't a move that indicated any kind of intellectual or artistic superiority on their parts. It was just a reaction to the 'hey WoT is awesome but wouldn't it be cool to read something that didn't tell that same old story?' Both stepped into the market at the time when this is what readers were looking for.

[Abyss]

Terez, on 16 November 2010 - 04:33 PM, said:

You are making an assumption here that this particular aspect of the books you named is 1) the most important one, and 2) as simple as you are making it out to be.

You're making an assumption that i'm making an assumption. I was making a generalization to explain my pov. Obviously we could debate for ages and pages the relative merits of the series in question, but that wasn't the point of the post. The point was to explain, briefly, how i see certain series as being more complex than WoT. It's a distinction and not a negative one.

As for this...

Quote

Both GRRM and Erikson have attempted to be the anti-trope in the wake of RJ's success with WoT. It wasn't a move that indicated any kind of intellectual or artistic superiority on their parts. It was just a reaction to the 'hey WoT is awesome but wouldn't it be cool to read something that didn't tell that same old story?' Both stepped into the market at the time when this is what readers were looking for.

...i suspect you're making links between RJ and SE and GRRM's motives that aren't actually there, but the point, and my main point, is that WoT is one thing and MBF and SIF are something else (and could easily be distinguished from each other too, but i'm not going there in a WoT thread).

[Terez]

Also, Brandon's assistant Peter just informed me that someone had misquoted Brandon on tour - most of the Mat bits that RJ wrote were in the Ghenjei sequence, but he didn't complete it. Brandon still had to do some work on it. We don't know exactly how much, but they're staying relatively mum on who wrote what until the books are done.

[Abyss]

Terez, on 16 November 2010 - 05:00 PM, said:

Also, Brandon's assistant Peter just informed me that someone had misquoted Brandon on tour - most of the Mat bits that RJ wrote were in the Ghenjei sequence, but he didn't complete it. Brandon still had to do some work on it. We don't know exactly how much, but they're staying relatively mum on who wrote what until the books are done.

Fundamentally it doesn't really matter who wrote precisely what, at least not to me. Tho i suppose it's fair to give credit where due, ie our upthread exchange re the snakes and foxes.

- Abyss, ...really just wants to know who wrote that part where Mat rips a fox's head off with one hand and uses it to beat three snakes to death while singing 'Jak o Shadows' and surfing down a staircase on his spear-thingy... tho i may have imagined that part...

[McLovin]

Terez, on 16 November 2010 - 04:33 PM, said:

There is a wealth of connectivity in WoT that will keep it alive in the academia for hundreds of years to come.

*spews Diet Pepsi all over desk*

Say WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!

[Skywalker]

Let me start by saying I totally loved Towers of Midnight

First Wheel of Time book in a long time that had me grinning with payoff and not foreshadowing and/ or anticipation.

Three or four things that I thought were awesome that haven't been covered here yet...

1) The Shadow Prophecy at the very end... and Moridin's comment that they know all the Light's prophecies, but the Dragon doesn't have all of theirs. Very nice touch.

2) The situation with Verin's letter and Caemlyn. Awesome... does anyone suspect (as I do) that the Ogier led by Loial are going to save Caemlyn?

3) The Black Tower... it looks like that situation will resolve itself now, with relatively little help from Rand. BUT I wonder why no one has pointed out to anyone that the Black Tower is the only "faction" not represented in Rand's Monarch Summit of Doom. Also, I think Demandred is Mezar, the guy that smiles different now. Not Taim, who is a Darkfriend though.

4) "The world has changed" says Birgitte after the cannons are tested... I found that statement spooky. And true. Randland will move out of the middle ages soon, now that they have ammo.

One other thing I noticed... LotR allusion

*) When Perrin was riding downslope to save Galad's whitecloaks, did anyone think that came too close to how Peter Jackson filmed Gandalf riding down to save Helm's Deep? And Byar - I wish he had been exposed as a Darkfriend, or that we had a POV from him before he went - but wasn't he very... um... Grima Wormtongue-ish?

[amphibian]

Terez, on 16 November 2010 - 04:33 PM, said:

There is a wealth of connectivity in WoT that will keep it alive in the academia for hundreds of years to come.

She's too close to the topic to be objective about this. I would be surprised if WoT is making any academic waves 25 years from now.

If I had my druthers, Blindsight would be the base of a metric fuckload of academic research. That book is amazing.

On-topic: Abyss, thanks for the list of impressions. They have value beyond being a simple list of "OMG" or random thoughts. I gave up on actually reading the WoT after Crossroads of Twilight. The wiki summaries are best supplemented with personal observations from someone like you and this combination lets me actually get the story completed in my head.

[Terez]

McLovin, on 16 November 2010 - 07:15 PM, said:

Terez, on 16 November 2010 - 04:33 PM, said:

There is a wealth of connectivity in WoT that will keep it alive in the academia for hundreds of years to come.

*spews Diet Pepsi all over desk*

Say WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!

The academia, you know. People who have more refined taste than random fuckheads on the internet people who drink Diet Pepsi.

amphibian, on 17 November 2010 - 05:59 AM, said:

Terez, on 16 November 2010 - 04:33 PM, said:

There is a wealth of connectivity in WoT that will keep it alive in the academia for hundreds of years to come.

She's too close to the topic to be objective about this. I would be surprised if WoT is making any academic waves 25 years from now.

Johann Sebastian Bach's sons were convinced that their father's music would fall into obscurity during their lifetimes. They were correct, in a way. His music was old-fashioned. 'Fugues are so 100 years ago, dad!' This has less to do with my personal preferences and more to do with the fact that there is so much to discuss in WoT. The details aren't dead ends like they are in most contemporary fantasy.

[acesn8s]

Kurt Montandon, on 16 November 2010 - 07:59 AM, said:

Haven't really seen it mentioned, but I thought one of the best "Moments of Awesome" was Rand strolling into the White Tower and pretty much telling them how it was going to be ... and they couldn't do a damn thing about it.

It reminded me of Get Shorty where Chili Palmer is saying "I'm the one tellin' you how it is..."

[Abyss]

Skywalker, on 17 November 2010 - 04:37 AM, said:

...2) The situation with Verin's letter and Caemlyn. Awesome... does anyone suspect (as I do) that the Ogier led by Loial are going to save Caemlyn?

The waygate element had me wondering the same thing.

Quote

3) The Black Tower... it looks like that situation will resolve itself now, with relatively little help from Rand. BUT I wonder why no one has pointed out to anyone that the Black Tower is the only "faction" not represented in Rand's Monarch Summit of Doom. Also, I think Demandred is Mezar, the guy that smiles different now. Not Taim, who is a Darkfriend though.

Y'know, when Makes-Gates-guy cut the lace with his floating microgate, i had the thought that a bunch of those together would be a really really nasty weapon. It would serve Taim right to get turned into cole slaw that way.

Quote

4) "The world has changed" says Birgitte after the cannons are tested... I found that statement spooky. And true. Randland will move out of the middle ages soon, now that they have ammo.

Loved that line.

Quote

Perrin was riding downslope to save Galad's whitecloaks, did anyone think that came too close to how Peter Jackson filmed Gandalf riding down to save Helm's Deep? ...

Had the same thought tho i doubt it was deliberate.

amphibian, on 17 November 2010 - 05:59 AM, said:

...Abyss, thanks for the list of impressions. They have value beyond being a simple list of "OMG" or random thoughts. I gave up on actually reading the WoT after Crossroads of Twilight. The wiki summaries are best supplemented with personal observations from someone like you and this combination lets me actually get the story completed in my head.

- Abyss, ...does one's humble best.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

@Abyss's microgate comment, Rand does use gateways to kill Trollocs en masse. The swirl around and the edges cut through anything while the Trollocs that go through them just instant die. They're called Deathgates or something.

[Illuyankas]

I do have one little quibble, though. Thirteen books and no balefiresaber?