[Terez]

lol, no. Here's how I see it: the problem with the future Aviendha saw is that the Aiel still felt that honor was best earned through battle. Therefore, in the age of peace, they felt they had lost honor. So they picked a fight with the Seanchan, which started a war that destroyed the Aiel in the end.

So, Rand thoughtlessly cuts the ropes that are holding the crystal globe together (which represents the Aiel, probably with a tie to the crystal columns in Rhuidean) when he forces everyone to accept the Dragon's Peace. The globe is already cracked because of what Rand told them about their past and the Way of the Leaf.

Therefore, the Aiel need a new purpose. Probably something to do with readopting the Way of the Leaf. The Seanchan are still a problem - I have some ideas about how that will tie in - but the fundamental problem in Aviendha's vision was not the Seanchan. The Aiel started the war - essentially out of boredom - and there is nothing really to indicate that the Seanchan would have done so without provocation.

[Cause]

Terez, on 01 December 2010 - 04:50 PM, said:

Abyss, on 01 December 2010 - 04:45 PM, said:

TOPIC.

Oooh, it's pink!

Right, topic. What did you guys think of this?

RJ/BWS said:

TITLE - Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 3 - The Amyrlin's Anger

She saw an enormous sphere made of the finest crystal. It sparkled in the light of twenty-three enormous stars, shining down on it where it sat on a dark hilltop. There were cracks in it, and it was being held together by ropes.

There was Rand, walking up the hillside, holding a woodsman's axe. He reached the top and hefted the axe, then swung at the ropes one at a time, chopping them free. The last one parted, and the sphere began to break apart, the beautiful globe falling in pieces. Rand shook his head.

I thought the interpretation was pretty obvious, and not what Egwene assumed (the seals).

If Rand shakes his head though it means that perhaps he was around to see the error in which case it could not be Aviendhas future

[Terez]

Dreams don't really work like that, though. And it fits with what the Aiel said about Rand not really knowing what to do with them.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Perrin is blatantly gonna lose a leg int he next book.

That way, him Rand and Mat will be a full pirate between them.

[Terez]

Thelomen Toblerone, on 07 December 2010 - 11:54 PM, said:

Perrin is blatantly gonna lose a leg int he next book.

That way, him Rand and Mat will be a full pirate between them.

There's a theory on that.

[Flawed]

Finished this book yesterday and enjoyed it very much. The previous book was also good but this topped it off nicely.

Matt is still my fave character. The moment when he gave Jolene the Cakes as a send off was very funny and so typically him I just laughed out loud at the prospect of her having a blue mouth up to tar Valon.

The moment where He threw acorns at Perrins head to get him attention was also great and I found myself beaming at the reunion.

All in all I found the book to be a good instalment. I really felt a sense of impending doom throughout the read. I even found myself looking ahead a few pages to get it over and done with because I couldn’t take the suspense.

The moment where graendal ( sp ) was basically legging it was pretty good. I liked the way she was trying to stay calm but blatantly cracking around the edges. the hint of mirror realms she could visit etc.

I liked Rands inner battle with himself and the subtle way the great one had tried to integrate himself within him. But love won in the end. I like the whole clear sky theme whenever he is around also. That’s on a slightly different theme to the usual channelling thing and suggests a more mystical link to the creator. we have not really seen that before.

there were so many points and things that went on in the book. a lot of things tied up and now it has been left nicely up in the air for the final book.

Mats excursion into the tower was very good. He is a funny lad. he may as well of mooned at them when they finally escaped. Half the light of the world. I remember reading that all those years ago and thinking about one of his eyes.

All in all very good. Now im starting on stoneweilder.

[Grimjust Bearegular]

Finished the book yesterday at work *ahem* and I must say it was pretty awesome. Gotta love Sanderson for picking up the pace, and keeping it up. I mean, all that action in ONE book?! It was glorious

I must also add that I agree with the OP on all points actually Those visions of the Aiel future was very well-written stuff, and extremely troubling. I read through all the passages and shouted Oh Noes after each one...it was pretty brutal. Not Malazan brutal, but still....


Can't wait for the next book! I'm almost as excited about the last WOT book as I am the last MBotF book...


Argh, why didn't Mat just open the bloody letter?



Been a long time since I read the previous books. Can anyone refresh my memory about what's going on in the Black Tower?

[Terez]

Your timing is immaculate. I just finished this (might be a little rough - I didn't proofread it much):

FAQ - The Black Tower

[Grimjust Bearegular]

ah, nice:) Thanks!

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

I've just finished it -- I swear I read the last 10 chapters holding my breath. It's at times like this that I find myself feeling sorry for those people who don't manage to make it past the middle of the series.

Regarding the book, I actually don't know what to say; my mind is reeling from the sheer awesomeness and I'm left speechless. My only 'concern', as such, is how all of the questions we still have and all of the remaining plotlines are going to fit into one final book. It feels to me as if it'll take another dozen books to bring any kind of finality to the whole thing, especially now that we've seen what we have of the future of the Aiel (and to a lesser extent, the world).

I was considering the differences between the MBotF and WoT, recently, and I think that the great thing about the Malazan books is how you really have to think about them but once you piece the information together it hits you like a slap in the face. On the other hand, I think the great thing about WoT is that you don't have to think about it so much and it still hits you like a slap in the face and if you choose to dig deeper and read more than just what's on the surface, then every further revelation is like a backhanded slap when your not expecting it after said original slap(s).

That said, don't ever make me pick between the two because I couldn't -- they're both awesome in totally different ways.

AAAARRRRGGH I FEEL LIKE SHOUTING AT SOMETHING.

This last wait is going to be unbearable.

...satisfied customer indeed.

Thanks for putting up with my ramblings; I needed to let off some steam there!



EDIT: Noticed the (brief part of a longer discussion) that essentially said what I meant about comparing WoT and MBotF, except in a more understandable way. xD

Plus, other that directing me to the glossary entry for Graendal and the fact that it seems to have been insinuated by Moridin, can someone (Terez?) please explain actually how we know that Graendal killed Asmodean? I mean sure, if Moridin says so, and if it's clearly stated in the glossary then it's a given that she did it...but...is it actually explained in any more detail ANYWHERE? Do we know how she did it, or why she did it?

And does anyone else agree that we've just been given the answer to possibly the biggest question ever, other than the meaning of life, in a rather anticlimactic and frankly unsatisfactory way? We've been wondering who killed Asmo for, what, at least eight books now (how many years is that?) and we finally get the answer in the form of "Oh btw, Graendal killed him, but I forgot to mention that earlier..."? Seriously, I haven't missed something big, have I...like, 5 chapters or something?

This post has been edited by Green Pig: 01 February 2011 - 07:26 PM

[Cobbles]

Green Pig, on 01 February 2011 - 05:13 PM, said:

And does anyone else agree that we've just been given the answer to possibly the biggest question ever, other than the meaning of life, in a rather anticlimactic and frankly unsatisfactory way? We've been wondering who killed Asmo for, what, at least eight books now (how many years is that?) and we finally get the answer in the form of "Oh btw, Graendal killed him, but I forgot to mention that earlier..."? Seriously, I haven't missed something big, have I...like, 5 chapters or something?

You can always go back to the question whether Balrogs have wings.

[Terez]

Cobbles, on 02 February 2011 - 12:27 AM, said:

Green Pig, on 01 February 2011 - 05:13 PM, said:

And does anyone else agree that we've just been given the answer to possibly the biggest question ever, other than the meaning of life, in a rather anticlimactic and frankly unsatisfactory way? We've been wondering who killed Asmo for, what, at least eight books now (how many years is that?) and we finally get the answer in the form of "Oh btw, Graendal killed him, but I forgot to mention that earlier..."? Seriously, I haven't missed something big, have I...like, 5 chapters or something?

You can always go back to the question whether Balrogs have wings.

You know, I think sometimes people forget that RJ was continually amused and bemused by the obsession with Asmodean's killer. It was such an inconsequential thing but it became the number one mystery of the fandom. When I joined up on '04 I was surprised to see that so many people cared. When he died I just assumed that one of the other Forsaken killed him for obvious enough reasons whether they were specific or not (as they were with Graendal) and I didn't care which. Darkfriends killing other Darkfriends is boring. Even Brandon has said as much. There was a rather large faction of Theorylanders who didn't give a shit about Asmodean, and it was one of the first factions I joined after signing up at TL. To us, the bit about her 'apparent habit' in chapter 5 was all the reveal we needed, not to mention the bit in the epilogue where Shaidar Haran says she's caused the deaths of three of the Chosen now (Asmodean, Aran'gar, and Mesaana) (though of course without the glossary reveal, the non-Graendal Asmodean die-hards would have still been at it). Case in point:

Twitter said:

Matt Hatch
Ouch. I should get Jenn to do an Asmodean panel at JordanCon. I need an outlet for my glossary disdain.
Terez
While all of us in the apathy camp think the glossary reveal was JUST PERFECT TAKE THAT YOU CHUMPS.

Matt Hatch is Tamyrlin of Theoryland, and he was a beta reader for TOM. He was planning on making an argument that since you might say that Graendal indirectly caused Sammael's death by pushing him to a confrontation with Rand, and in that case she need not have killed Asmodean. It's not really comparable to Asmodean or Aran'gar in terms of level of responsibility, but it's closer to Mesaana. But for those of us who weren't emotionally invested in the debate yet still involved enough in the fandom to know all the various arguments, it was clear enough without reading the glossary that the debate was over.

PS - I just re-read this whole thread, and I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the generally intelligent discussion from the oldtimers in this thread, though some only dropped in briefly. I had forgotten about the trollish dude, who appears to have disappeared? Quite often on fan forums you get a great deal of black-and-whiteness when it comes to emotionally-charged series comparisons. I remember dropping out after my last post pre-troll thinking I was going to get trolled by the locals for it (because it was slightly defensive and therefore a little bit confrontational), and for a few days I deleted the thread subscription emails because I just wasn't in the mood for it. And then I come back to find that I'm being trolled by a noob and that the locals have already stepped in and more or less handled it. That's awesome. I hope you guys are still around when WoT is done and I can re-read Malazan for the first time. And the second, and the third...

This post has been edited by Terez: 09 February 2011 - 04:16 AM

[D'iversify]

Finally read this (was finishing tMBotF first). Quite excellent. Though I did find Tam-in-two-places-due-to-non-synchronicity-of-stories a bit annoying before it resolved and Elayne trying to outwit the Black Ajah was utterly stupid ('Oooh, I can do what i like thanks to my prophecy safety-net'). Perrin's 'i'm not a Lord/leader' act was annoying early on in the book, but he very much redeemed himself in the latter half - one particular moment of brilliance was his stopping that Black Sister balefiring Egwene in Tel'Aranrhiod by just doing the whole 'this isn't real' trick.

[ShadowRaven]

Finally managed to get down to reading this one after spending some time re-reading the Malazan books and Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. I actually went through Gathering Storm and Towers in One week and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised by both books. The only problem I had with the writing was the constant mentions in almost every POV of the character "controlling his/her temper with effort" (although Jordan did that at times too much as well). Some things that have been left hanging got resolved very nicely and the action was very good. I have never really cared for Mat that much but he stood out nicely in this book.

One plot thread I really hoped would have been resolved by now was Padan Fain, his character is just plain annoying and we have only seen a few glimpses in the last couple of books. He is such a deviation from the main plotline at this point that I would really have liked to see him dealt with instead of it taking space in the final book.

Some interesting new questions arose for me as well. The people's changing personalities in the Black Tower was probably the foremost one, what the hell are they doing to them there? Considering that there seems to be a dreamspike present, I think Taim is probably a servant of either Moridin or Demandred, or has actually been killed and replaced by one of them (would explain Moridin's comments to Demandred about Demandred controlling a substantial force even though all nations are accounted for).

[Terez]

1. Fain has been endgame material from the beginning; I doubt many people expected him to be taken care of earlier. He's an interesting product of the Dark One's power and the power of Shadar Logoth, which has the power to nullify the Dark One's power. Since Fain has been a master controller of Shadowspawn, especially Fades, since book 2, expect him to have a confrontation with Shaidar Haran.

2. The folks at the Black Tower are being turned to the Shadow via a method that was introduced way back in TDR - a circle of thirteen Darkfriends using thirteen Myrddraal as a filter. We've wondered before now why it hasn't been used, but now it's pretty clear - you can't hide these guys. And so, they waited until they could secure the Black Tower before turning people, and presumably now they're trying to turn as many as possible before the Battle of Caemlyn. (The BT is a bit behind in the timeline, so I think we last saw them a week or so before the attack which was seen in the epilogue...which was the Night Before Merrilor.)

3. Taimandred is one of the older theories of the fandom, but it was debunked years ago (and multiple times) by RJ. There is a contingent that believes he is Moridin, but I don't count myself among that contingent. There are several reasons why the proposition is dubious, and it makes much more sense to me that Taim is just a Darkfriend who has done well for himself. I think he was probably trained by Ishamael before the start of the series, since we know Ishamael was out and about shortly after the Aiel War (and he's generally out for periods of 40 years).

4. As for Demandred's army, one nation is not accounted for - Murandy. My best guess is that Demandred was in charge of the Black Tower until the time Ishamael returned as Moridin. At that time, Taim began reporting directly to Moridin, and Demandred set up shop in Murandy. He's got a few other things going on, but I think he's posing as Roedran. (If this makes you incredulous, then please read this - or at least the first few sections.)

[Abyss]

Terez, on 04 November 2011 - 09:41 AM, said:

1. Fain has been endgame material from the beginning; I doubt many people expected him to be taken care of earlier. He's an interesting product of the Dark One's power and the power of Shadar Logoth, which has the power to nullify the Dark One's power. Since Fain has been a master controller of Shadowspawn, especially Fades, since book 2, expect him to have a confrontation with Shaidar Haran.

I'm expecting Fain to pull a Gollum... attack Rand at an apprently inopportune time that turns into a backwards good thing when Fain damages the DO or takes a hit meant for Rand.

Quote

2. The folks at the Black Tower ...The BT is a bit behind in the timeline, so I think we last saw them a week or so before the attack which was seen in the epilogue...which was the Night Before Merrilor.)

The timeline play was the sole thing that really bugged me in the book.

Quote

3. Taimandred is one of the older theories of the fandom, but it was debunked years ago ...

Sure, but Taim was a cool character and the first truly powerful male channeler to go over to Rand's side. it's intrincically 'cooler' to think that it was all a long con by Demandred. Having him turn out to be 'random darkfriend # 117' just seems like a bit of a let down.

[Terez]

Abyss, on 04 November 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

Terez, on 04 November 2011 - 09:41 AM, said:

1. Fain has been endgame material from the beginning; I doubt many people expected him to be taken care of earlier. He's an interesting product of the Dark One's power and the power of Shadar Logoth, which has the power to nullify the Dark One's power. Since Fain has been a master controller of Shadowspawn, especially Fades, since book 2, expect him to have a confrontation with Shaidar Haran.

I'm expecting Fain to pull a Gollum... attack Rand at an apprently inopportune time that turns into a backwards good thing when Fain damages the DO or takes a hit meant for Rand.

Quote

Towers of Midnight book tour 8 November 2010 Lincoln Triangle Barnes and Noble NY, NY - WinespringBrother reporting
Q: (a takeoff on Leigh's review) I've seen this somewhere before : gollumgollumgollum
A: Fain will not end up like Gollum.
Towers of Midnight book tour 8 November 2010 Lincoln Triangle Barnes and Noble NY, NY - Sarayne reporting
Q: Is Padan Fain going to turn out like Gollum?
Brandon: No, he is not going to be like that. I am aware of the comparisons, and I am trying to distance him from that. The scene in Towers of Midnight with Padan Fain was originally written differently, and when I submitted it to Harriet she said, "Oh no he's much crazier than that!" So I changed it accordingly.

Quote

Sure, but Taim was a cool character and the first truly powerful male channeler to go over to Rand's side. it's intrincically 'cooler' to think that it was all a long con by Demandred. Having him turn out to be 'random darkfriend # 117' just seems like a bit of a let down.

I don't really relate to that sentiment. He's hardly a 'random Darkfriend' just because he's not one of the Forsaken in disguise.

[acesn8s]

Once Jordan stated Taim was not Demandred I put Taim in the new Dreadlord column. Makes him more appealing than darkfriend #117. He's an evil middle manager of darkfriends.

Since Jordan likes to have fun with the typical tropes, I imagine that instead of Fain accidently aiding the the good guys, maybe he'll purposely thwart the Dark One. We all know that bad guys don't like to share.

[Abyss]

Terez, on 04 November 2011 - 02:19 PM, said:

Abyss, on 04 November 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

...I'm expecting Fain to pull a Gollum...

...A: Fain will not end up like Gollum. ...Q: Is Padan Fain going to turn out like Gollum?
Brandon: No, he is not going to be like that. I am aware of the comparisons, and I am trying to distance him from that. ....

We shall see.
I have faith that whatever Brandon does will rock, but i would like to see him subvert the obvious expectation with this character.

Quote

Quote

Sure, but Taim was a cool character and the first truly powerful male channeler to go over to Rand's side. it's intrincically 'cooler' to think that it was all a long con by Demandred. Having him turn out to be 'random darkfriend # 117' just seems like a bit of a let down.

I don't really relate to that sentiment. He's hardly a 'random Darkfriend' just because he's not one of the Forsaken in disguise.

No, but imnsho the revelation that an established character such as Demandred (or whichever Foresaken is left) has pulled off the deception and subverted large chunks of BT out from under Rand would have more impact than a basic mwua-hah-ha traitor ploy.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 04 November 2011 - 03:17 PM, said:

...subverted large chunks of BT out from under Rand...

This BT?