[Silchas Ruin]

Hello- Back for a bit and all caught up, thoughts:

1. I agree with Serc that operations masters aren't necessarily the leaders
2. I feel those with more defensive abilities will probably be residing on the outskirts, while those with offensive abilities are more likely to play in the middle to ensure action success...of course survivability comes into play so it's really a big ol plate of Wifom
3. I am fine with voting off low ,non contributing posters, there is a difference.
4. I also noticed that Merrid backed off as soon as he was called out and it was definately the first thing that pinged my radar in this game.
5. This is going to be another tough game in terms of train analyzation as OP states not everyone knows who is on their team, makes pisking out teams a bit more difficult.
6. The Cake is a lie

[Korabas]

Galain, on 01 December 2010 - 07:59 PM, said:

Korabas, on 01 December 2010 - 06:00 PM, said:

Please, can we please stop about the scum/ town thing here? No such thing. This is a faction game.
In the words of D'rek:


This is a 2-sided town-less, scum-less game.

Now, if there are two sides and one side is made out of 2 factions, guess which faction is the big one?

So you're basically saying that the majority are actually in Yuan Shao's faction. That's interesting. Hopefully you still think i'm talking sensible =p

It would not surprise me at all if that is the case, enough to speak out against what everyone else think is the likely scenario, yeah.
Part of my first reason (the number thing) is based on the story, admittedly, that is risky:

Quote

Eager to begin his invasion and capture Liu Bei’s accomplice, Huang Zhong, Yuan Shao ordered the mobilization of half a million soldiers in the capital Luo Yang, divided into five equal contingents.

Quote

Huang Zhong's meagre forces fled Xin Ye and traveled to Xiang Yang. The city was currently under the control of Liu Zong, son of the deceased former Jingzhou governor Liu Biao. The two forces joined together to defend the city. When Yuan Shao's vanguard arrived, Liu Zong's officer Wen Ping secretly defected and then set fires at the northern gate. Yuan Shao's forces rushed into the city while Wen Ping fought off all attempts to seal the gate. Huang Zhong and Liu Zong could not secure the walls, so their forces retreated west.

Word soon came that Yuan Shao had secured the northern bank of the Xiang River and had crack troops racing south to capture Jiang Ling. Huang Zhong's master strategist, Pang Tong, said, "Fang Ling enjoys natural defenses and has ample cash and grain. It can be held indefinitely. I advise you, my lord, to station yourself there. Let young Master Zong take his forces to besiege Jiang Ling while we work our navy into fighting condition and recruit more men. We can hold Yuan Shao off by thus placing our forces in pincer formation. For us to attack Jiang Ling together would leave us isolated." "Wise counsel," Liu Zong said. "However, I would ask that your forces help escort our siege weapons to Jiang Ling. After that there'll be time enough for you to proceed to Fang Ling." "Young master Liu has a point," Huang Zhong said and, after dispatching Wei Yan to Fang Ling with five thousand men, he headed for Jiang Ling with Pang Tong and Liu Zong.

In the west of the empire Zhang Xiu, stationed at Han Zhong, heard that Yuan Shao had moved into Jingzhou and was marching on Jiang Ling double time. He therefore assembled his counselors to discuss the defense of his territory. Zhuge Jin said, "Jingzhou adjoins our territory. Rivers and mountains protect it. Its people are prosperous. If we can seize and hold the province, we will acquire the resources to establish our rule over the empire. I propose that you send me to Shang Yong to exchange formalities with Huang Zhong. I believe I can persuade him and Liu Biao's former commanders to make common cause with us against Yuan Shao. Huang Zhong's cooperation would provide a firm basis for our grand strategy." Zhang Xiu adopted the proposal and dispatched Zhuge Jin to Shang Yong with gifts.

[/size]


So, we have 5 equal contingents for Yuan Shao, a traitor joining him, and perhaps Yuan Shao himself?
We have 20k on Zhong's side, and 4 named characters and see Wei Yan leave with a quarter of the force, and although Pang Tong sounds like something you order at a take-away, he actually has a wiki page, so 4 with Zhong.


In the Zhang line, so far only Xiu and Jin are mentioned.


By taking into account there are 2 sides, I find the above a likely division, myself.

[Silchas Ruin]

Tiamatha, on 01 December 2010 - 07:26 PM, said:

Right just considering the map, it obvious not every single player could move cause they move to the central town which is adjacent to the three remaining towns and wipe out the point of the map.

So there has to be some players that are stationary, but the best thing to happen is for every player who can move to move to the central town, thus ensuring a higgher success rate of NA.

Cause the Yuan Shau killers are going to do that to give them the ability be able to kill anyone with their NA. What the point of sitting in a satelite town if it reduces the chance of a successful night action before other night action are considered if you have the ability to move.

If you have the ability to move then it best to move to the central town and then increase the chance of a successful NA.

this post sounds like someone directing people. Could be just idle speculation, but it has the hint of "hey... go do this" to it.

Also, I am fine with a Mockra vote. Even if he is on my team he is clearly not helping it.

vote Mockra

[Serc]

Galain, on 01 December 2010 - 08:01 PM, said:

Serc, on 01 December 2010 - 07:45 PM, said:

Tiamatha, on 01 December 2010 - 07:26 PM, said:

Right just considering the map, it obvious not every single player could move cause they move to the central town which is adjacent to the three remaining towns and wipe out the point of the map.

So there has to be some players that are stationary, but the best thing to happen is for every player who can move to move to the central town, thus ensuring a higgher success rate of NA.

Cause the Yuan Shau killers are going to do that to give them the ability be able to kill anyone with their NA. What the point of sitting in a satelite town if it reduces the chance of a successful night action before other night action are considered if you have the ability to move.

If you have the ability to move then it best to move to the central town and then increase the chance of a successful NA.

It also highly increases your chances of getting killed, guarded, or whatever. Unless you're a big enough role for your healer, if you even have one, to know who you are and to decide to heal you, moving to the centre en-masse is a bad idea as you are now a target for absolutely anyone. It's a double-edged sword, and while you've got a 100% chance of hitting someone, any of the other 13 players might also decide to target you. This isn't a town/scum game, either, there's no guarantee that the Yuan Shau guys have all got killing powers. And we haven't factored in the mysterious Operations yet.
Then again, I might be being too cautious.

Well FWIW, I think the center strategy is actually a pretty good one. The "hide in the side town" strategy only works if the guy targeting you is in another side town. If the guy targeting you is in the middle, then you are vulnerable, whether or not you are hiding. If the "scum"--and I still use that term loosely--do move to the middle as Tia suggested, then hiding only decreases your own effectiveness, not your attacker's.

So, are you volunteering to jump into the middle today, then?
Also, note Path Shaper's earlier post here.

Quote

...Liu Zong's officer Wen Ping secretly defected and then set fires...

Quote

...while we work our navy into fighting condition and recruit more men...

Quote

"...I propose that you send me to Shang Yong to exchange formalities with Huang Zhong. I believe I can persuade him and Liu Biao's former commanders to make common cause with us against Yuan Shao. Huang Zhong's cooperation would provide a firm basis for our grand strategy."...

Heavy emphasis on recruitment and allying, right there, not to mention the fact that it has some kind of effect on "grand strategies" (see Operations).
I would imagine that means Operations can be improved by recruiting people to your team, or at least that seems to be the subtext here.
If a recruitment mechanic is in play, a large number of killing roles would counteract that too much, so I figure there's only one or two one-shot killers, if any at all.

[Tulas Shorn]

Korabas, on 01 December 2010 - 10:46 AM, said:

Rashan, on 01 December 2010 - 09:34 AM, said:

do we know of anymore characters? if we do we can use the roles to find out how many players are in each team and how many "bad" guys we have to lynch!

Just here for a split second as work is like the second ring of Dante's Inferno, hence why I am not anon and not going to commend a lot on set-up yet (hopefully I'll be able to do so tonight, although I do have an out-of-office propaganda government info-evening scheduled that I may dodge on account of bad traffic connections due to the weather).

Check the Dynasty Warriors character lists if you want to find the biggest heroes attached to this part of history. Alternatively, she supplied a wiki page. I'm sure cross-searching names from there will lead to a decent amount of people involved that make checking the P-S stories for important characters easier.
I doubt it will do much good in regard of faction division however, as D'rek is making an alternate history, after all, so historic factions may be unequal to current ones, especially where it concerns Yuan Shao or whatever the guy's name may be.

Also, a LOT of the key characters of the Era were kille doff in Game3.

[Tulas Shorn]

Galain, on 01 December 2010 - 05:28 PM, said:

Merrid, on 01 December 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

Rashan, on 01 December 2010 - 03:11 PM, said:

Quote

As far as I'm aware, the location of a player doesn't affect our ability to lynch them, so unless you're talking about failed NAs (and I don't know why you would be) where they are is really irrelevant for the purposes of 'getting them' unless you are a killer or vig. Besides, PS has already stated that the locations refer to general vicinities, and I don't see how an extra location that could only affect one city is at all helpful to anyone unless they are going to be targeted a lot, but BPs address that problem in the same way without hampering effectiveness so there's no need for the mechanic.

As for speculation, I'm not sure how much stock we can place in the names. But it's a good start, and Emurlahn has pretty much written out what I have, so I'll go by it until we're proved otherwise.

EDIT - added 'but' and 'so'

how many killers are there? this is what we are trying to work out. does every team have a killer or is it only YS's team?

How should I know? It's anyone's guess at this stage. I would definitely expect each team to have at least one vig though, and although I think Yuan Shao only being more likely, I can probably see each faction having a killer, . This game will rack up some bodies quickly if that's the case though, regardless of BPs and location-fails, but I guess we'll find out tonight.

Quote

without me mentioning the additional locations we would not have had the extra map with circles noting what each area constitutes. therefore my post was helpful as we now know how areas work!

Alright alright, don't get your panties in a bunch, jeez. It was already fairly obvious which areas were adjacent anyway. It was clearly stated Shang Yong was in the center, and everything else was adjacent. Not tough to figure out. I think what the others are saying is suspicious is not that you're getting involved but that you made a special point to say 'I was being helpful!' I don't think it was fishy so much as you were insulted that I was so dismissive of your reasoning, but anyway.


EDIT - changed last sentence to better reflect meaning

First, there's no way every faction has a killer unless it's 5-5-4. If you have a 3-7-4 split or something like that, guess which faction will win if they all have killers (hint: it's the big one). Even with that, I doubt there are killers in all 3 factions.

Second, we have a lot of people badgering Rashan for what I also happen to think is poor reasoning. And here you are backing off as soon as he gets angry. *That* is suspicious to me.

given our past history, the killers, tend to go for unknown members of their own factions, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

[Tulas Shorn]

ba-hey, we're actually going for a low-poster for once!

vote Mockra

no read makes him a liabilty.

[Mockra]

You guys are low-poster hunting on DAY ONE?

OK, so I hate claiming RL as an excuse, but fuck you lot:

Yesterday morning, I wake up, get my role PM, read the few posts on the thread, response. Then, I spent the next EIGHT HOURS driving to the coast for the day and back, wherein I have no internet. I am exhausted by the time I get home, so I go to bed. I then wake up this morning, to find a bunch of cock-faggots who can never get a lynch on people who have AT LEAST SOME SCUMMY INDICATIONS on day one are lining me up for a fucking speed lynch?

Well, fuck you all

Vote Mockra.

This post has been edited by Mockra: 01 December 2010 - 09:47 PM

[Tulas Shorn]

except this game we got no scum, so to speak.....

[Mockra]

You know exactly what I fucking mean Tulas. And in a game where night actions and operations are going to be almost as valuable as lynches, you want to lynch an unknown just because they haven't participated yet?

No, fuck it. I'd ask for a modkill, but that wouldn't hurt you lot as much as lynching me. Of all the fucking day's and game's to finally man up and lynch on day one you picked one where I was indisposed? Well, que sera, sera, I guess. I'm not even going to try and participate because there isn't time for the lynch to stall out. And you have no idea how tempted I am to sell my team down the fucking toilet before someone hammers because of this....

[Galain]

You went to the coast? Then surely your tears will be twice as salty.

If you can't play, don't sign up. And lynching low posters on Day 1 is the best time to do it.

[Mockra]

Galain, on 01 December 2010 - 10:07 PM, said:

You went to the coast? Then surely your tears will be twice as salty.

If you can't play, don't sign up. And lynching low posters on Day 1 is the best time to do it.

See? This is exactly why I'm not even bothering. You obviously can't read, it's clear by now due to your posts on thread, and if that doesn't get you lynched nothing will. "Can't play"? Yeah. FOR THE VERY FIRST DAY.


And it's absolutely not the right time to lynch low posters. Why? THEY MIGHT BE YOUR FACTION LEADER. OR THEY MIGHT BE PLANNING ON DOING SOME IMPORTANT SHIT LATE GAME, DUMB FUCK.

[Galain]

Mockra, on 01 December 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

You know exactly what I fucking mean Tulas. And in a game where night actions and operations are going to be almost as valuable as lynches, you want to lynch an unknown just because they haven't participated yet?

No, fuck it. I'd ask for a modkill, but that wouldn't hurt you lot as much as lynching me. Of all the fucking day's and game's to finally man up and lynch on day one you picked one where I was indisposed? Well, que sera, sera, I guess. I'm not even going to try and participate because there isn't time for the lynch to stall out. And you have no idea how tempted I am to sell my team down the fucking toilet before someone hammers because of this....

Crybaby attitude. Get lynched early, may as well try to screw up the game as much as possible, right? Bravo.

[Mockra]

Galain, on 01 December 2010 - 10:11 PM, said:

Mockra, on 01 December 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

You know exactly what I fucking mean Tulas. And in a game where night actions and operations are going to be almost as valuable as lynches, you want to lynch an unknown just because they haven't participated yet?

No, fuck it. I'd ask for a modkill, but that wouldn't hurt you lot as much as lynching me. Of all the fucking day's and game's to finally man up and lynch on day one you picked one where I was indisposed? Well, que sera, sera, I guess. I'm not even going to try and participate because there isn't time for the lynch to stall out. And you have no idea how tempted I am to sell my team down the fucking toilet before someone hammers because of this....

Crybaby attitude. Get lynched early, may as well try to screw up the game as much as possible, right? Bravo.

Yup, and you only have yourselves to blame. It would be different if, I dunno, I was getting lynched for a proper reason. But those aren't good enough for you guys, are they? No, you have to have something useless like "he's not contributing (on day one!) gasp" to actually motivate into a lynch. Mafia is fucking dead on this forum.

[Serc]

Not that I particularly care about Mockra, but isn't this a bit early in the game for a totally random lynch without giving him a chance before?
Then again, this MAFIA SUCKS GOD DAMNIT SO ANGRY seems to hide SHIT, POWER ROLE, THEY FOUND ME TOO EARLY these days.

[Omtose]

Mockra, chill out man. At least in my vote, I stated that I'd remove my vote if you came back and started helping. Instead, you came back and blew up. Your liberal use of fuck, calling us cock-faggots, etc. etc. isn't exactly a good way to make people change their minds. I understand how infuriating it can be to have people target you, but a decent attitude can go a long way. Threatening to sell your team out is not cool, either. I really hope you don't spoil the game for everyone just because you're angry.

Probably shouldn't have said all this, because I can already envision an angry reply from you, but oh well.

[Korabas]

Mockra, on 01 December 2010 - 10:16 PM, said:

Galain, on 01 December 2010 - 10:11 PM, said:

Mockra, on 01 December 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

You know exactly what I fucking mean Tulas. And in a game where night actions and operations are going to be almost as valuable as lynches, you want to lynch an unknown just because they haven't participated yet?

No, fuck it. I'd ask for a modkill, but that wouldn't hurt you lot as much as lynching me. Of all the fucking day's and game's to finally man up and lynch on day one you picked one where I was indisposed? Well, que sera, sera, I guess. I'm not even going to try and participate because there isn't time for the lynch to stall out. And you have no idea how tempted I am to sell my team down the fucking toilet before someone hammers because of this....

Crybaby attitude. Get lynched early, may as well try to screw up the game as much as possible, right? Bravo.

Yup, and you only have yourselves to blame. It would be different if, I dunno, I was getting lynched for a proper reason. But those aren't good enough for you guys, are they? No, you have to have something useless like "he's not contributing (on day one!) gasp" to actually motivate into a lynch. Mafia is fucking dead on this forum.

Tsk tsk.

You admit as much as anyone else that a day one lynch was something we used to have, and don't have nowadays.
You talk even about manning up so you agree it is more or less necessary. Now, if you had actually posted something that would indicate you'd be gone for the length of the game day, and would be able to play once back, well, things might have been different and we might have picked another target, because we're usually lenient with this kind of thing when RL is mentioned. You didn't, and thus, you gambled that we'd forget about you. We didn't.

Whether you are a faction leader or not, you simply didn't take a simple precaution that WOULD have saved your ass. I for one would not have voted for you. So yeah, blame us/me (as mine was the first vote) as much as you like, but don't throw a tantrum or call the game dead.


Also, you actually demand a proper reason? Like in a case? Day one? I think the last time THAT happened, it was Mac drunk posting he was scum. Moreover, if we had to have a case on day 1, everyone who only posted a one-lined greeting would be safe automatically. That would be when the game is dead.

As for throwing your team to the sharks, well, that's deliberately screwing your team for a decision they'd know little about just because you feel fucked (and whether or not that feeling is something I can sympathize with, is an entirely different thing).
It would be fucking bad sportmanship and frankly, I'd be incredibly pissed off as you screw something a mod took a lot of time to develop and 13 others than you to sign up to play and have fun in. Moreoever, we have a new guy on board, way to show how malazan mafia is all about the fun.

Bottomline: when away for an extended duration, say it.

[Mockra]

Serc, on 01 December 2010 - 10:24 PM, said:

Not that I particularly care about Mockra, but isn't this a bit early in the game for a totally random lynch without giving him a chance before?
Then again, this MAFIA SUCKS GOD DAMNIT SO ANGRY seems to hide SHIT, POWER ROLE, THEY FOUND ME TOO EARLY these days.

Of course, I could be on your team, and a power role, too, but that's just a crappy way to try and get out of a lynch.

It's more like: for once, you guys actually get up and go for a lynch (albeit for one that's for no real reason) but it just so happens to coincide with when I was busy. It's an unfortunate confluence, but one that is nonetheless pissing me off to no end, given how much I've enjoyed D'reks games in the past because they are well thought-out and often involve much interesting speculation and arguments. Instead, we're starting off with our first day-one bullshit lynch in months.

Omtose, on 01 December 2010 - 10:25 PM, said:

Mockra, chill out man. At least in my vote, I stated that I'd remove my vote if you came back and started helping. Instead, you came back and blew up. Your liberal use of fuck, calling us cock-faggots, etc. etc. isn't exactly a good way to make people change their minds. I understand how infuriating it can be to have people target you, but a decent attitude can go a long way. Threatening to sell your team out is not cool, either. I really hope you don't spoil the game for everyone just because you're angry.

Probably shouldn't have said all this, because I can already envision an angry reply from you, but oh well.

The anger is because I thoroughly enjoyed myself yesterday, and I am now getting lynched in mafia for it. I know you said that, but if you read through all the "fucks" and "cocks" in my posts above you'll note how I point out that the lynch ain't gonna stall out from here. We've got like 3 hours left and no alternatives. Hence the self-vote.

I'm blowing up because it's such utter fucking bullshit - not just the original motive, but the fact that in games past we usually give people AT LEAST a day's grace because they might come back on the next day and start playing. You can't just assume a low-poster on day one is going to be fucking useless for the whole game, but the ONE TIME we have a really good setup and I have RL for a day (very enjoyable RL) I get 6 votes in two hours because I haven't been 'participating' ?

See why I'm so pissed?

[Mockra]

Korabas, on 01 December 2010 - 10:29 PM, said:

Mockra, on 01 December 2010 - 10:16 PM, said:

Galain, on 01 December 2010 - 10:11 PM, said:

Mockra, on 01 December 2010 - 10:06 PM, said:

You know exactly what I fucking mean Tulas. And in a game where night actions and operations are going to be almost as valuable as lynches, you want to lynch an unknown just because they haven't participated yet?

No, fuck it. I'd ask for a modkill, but that wouldn't hurt you lot as much as lynching me. Of all the fucking day's and game's to finally man up and lynch on day one you picked one where I was indisposed? Well, que sera, sera, I guess. I'm not even going to try and participate because there isn't time for the lynch to stall out. And you have no idea how tempted I am to sell my team down the fucking toilet before someone hammers because of this....

Crybaby attitude. Get lynched early, may as well try to screw up the game as much as possible, right? Bravo.

Yup, and you only have yourselves to blame. It would be different if, I dunno, I was getting lynched for a proper reason. But those aren't good enough for you guys, are they? No, you have to have something useless like "he's not contributing (on day one!) gasp" to actually motivate into a lynch. Mafia is fucking dead on this forum.

Tsk tsk.

You admit as much as anyone else that a day one lynch was something we used to have, and don't have nowadays.
You talk even about manning up so you agree it is more or less necessary. Now, if you had actually posted something that would indicate you'd be gone for the length of the game day, and would be able to play once back, well, things might have been different and we might have picked another target, because we're usually lenient with this kind of thing when RL is mentioned. You didn't, and thus, you gambled that we'd forget about you. We didn't.

Whether you are a faction leader or not, you simply didn't take a simple precaution that WOULD have saved your ass. I for one would not have voted for you. So yeah, blame us/me (as mine was the first vote) as much as you like, but don't throw a tantrum or call the game dead.


Also, you actually demand a proper reason? Like in a case? Day one? I think the last time THAT happened, it was Mac drunk posting he was scum. Moreover, if we had to have a case on day 1, everyone who only posted a one-lined greeting would be safe automatically. That would be when the game is dead.

As for throwing your team to the sharks, well, that's deliberately screwing your team for a decision they'd know little about just because you feel fucked (and whether or not that feeling is something I can sympathize with, is an entirely different thing).
It would be fucking bad sportmanship and frankly, I'd be incredibly pissed off as you screw something a mod took a lot of time to develop and 13 others than you to sign up to play and have fun in. Moreoever, we have a new guy on board, way to show how malazan mafia is all about the fun.

Bottomline: when away for an extended duration, say it.

If I had the time I would have - it's a rush to get out the door that early in the morning to get a solid day in, and I didn't even realise we were going so early until after I posted my intro.

And when I say 'proper' reason, I'm referencing all the OTHER day one cases of "oh, he said this" which we for some reason HAVEN'T LYNCHED PEOPLE OVER. A much higher basis for a lynch and yet we keep passing them over, and then I get shafted due to RL because we finally decide lynching on day one is a good thing.

As for being 'safe', no I don't believe so, but as I said above there's normally usually at least a BIT of grace period.

Look, I understand this lynch is a good thing for the game, hence why I am voting self (there's no town/scum, so it's not a self-serving maneuver) - to speed the process along. I realize that living another day is not going to be good, nor pleasant.

And I said the 'temptation to' - that's an indication of just how much this shit sucks for me, that I'd even be tempted to do it. Yes, it would suck if I did, but I won't: only because I love mafia and don't want to fuck it up for everyone else. But I am THAT annoyed that this shit finally caught up with us when I was busy.

[Rashan]

i like some of the posts above, and I am very skeptical of Ruse at this moment in time, however I mentioned earlier that it would be good to get a lynch on day one. there has been alot of interesting posts to read through since i left work, how many votes is that for Mockra.... 6? since he voted himself and ranted at us all in a manner that strikes me like he is a team leader like Serc explains or theories hmm

i am going to bed now, got work in the morning which means i'm up at 6am, i need my sleep I will be back on tomorrow at 8:30


Vote Mockra