[TheSword]

HoosierDaddy, on 30 October 2010 - 06:06 AM, said:

Children of the Forge, in this context, pertains to what? The earliest Andii? Ancestral lines? Master of a House in that connotation denotes some sort of rank achieved with skill of sword, I'd think. I guess, what I find most interesting, is the fact that there were "Hust forges in Darkness" during the Andii wars. Meaning there was lots of dragon blood being shed.... or one dragon shedding lots of blood, to be able to fuel one or more forges for long enough to make many blades.

Perhaps Rake took on Soletaken aspects because he was forced by outside circumstances to do so during these events.

I think it pertains to Rake, Silchas, and Andarist.
Children of the 'Forge'
Draconus.
He was 'Consort' of Darkness yeah?
So...
Could Draconus have SIRED Rake, Silchas, and Andarist?
This could be the story of how Mother Dark turned her back on the Andii. The entire story behind it. Starting with Draconus and the birth of Rake and the others.
Children of the Forge would probably mean the Hust blades. The forge would pertain to Draconus in some way.. maybe... Ah! The forging of Dragnipur? Draconus and the making of Dragnipur and Rake's taking Dranipur and slaying of Draconus? Bah. I'm going over too many scenarios. Any of them could be what it is or none of them.

"It's Noto Boil." - Noto Boil.
"Coulda fooled me." - Ganoes Paran.

[UmbraPhoenix]

It seems clear to me that this series will deal with the origins of the Tiste Andii, in particular the terrible wars that were waged when they still lived in Kharkanas. These wars resulted in Mother Dark denying her children, and after that denial is when Draconus forged Dragnipur. All of this has the potential to be part of this series. Other things such as the origins of the hust blades, the shake, and the relationship between the three children of mother dark are more than likely to be part of it. After all, when one thinks of the Tiste Andii, Anomander, Silchas, and Andarist are always first to come to mind.

[Aptorian]

TheSword, on 06 March 2011 - 01:13 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 30 October 2010 - 06:06 AM, said:

Children of the Forge, in this context, pertains to what? The earliest Andii? Ancestral lines? Master of a House in that connotation denotes some sort of rank achieved with skill of sword, I'd think. I guess, what I find most interesting, is the fact that there were "Hust forges in Darkness" during the Andii wars. Meaning there was lots of dragon blood being shed.... or one dragon shedding lots of blood, to be able to fuel one or more forges for long enough to make many blades.

Perhaps Rake took on Soletaken aspects because he was forced by outside circumstances to do so during these events.

I think it pertains to Rake, Silchas, and Andarist.
Children of the 'Forge'
Draconus.
He was 'Consort' of Darkness yeah?
So...
Could Draconus have SIRED Rake, Silchas, and Andarist?
This could be the story of how Mother Dark turned her back on the Andii. The entire story behind it. Starting with Draconus and the birth of Rake and the others.
Children of the Forge would probably mean the Hust blades. The forge would pertain to Draconus in some way.. maybe... Ah! The forging of Dragnipur? Draconus and the making of Dragnipur and Rake's taking Dranipur and slaying of Draconus? Bah. I'm going over too many scenarios. Any of them could be what it is or none of them.

"It's Noto Boil." - Noto Boil.
"Coulda fooled me." - Ganoes Paran.

Udinass guessed that the three brothers dark probably weren't as dark as they claimed to be, implying that father light could be their father.

[Abyss]

Battle Plaptypus, on 10 April 2011 - 05:34 PM, said:

...Udinass guessed that the three brothers dark probably weren't as dark as they claimed to be, implying that father light could be their father.

Not quite. Udinaas speculates that the brothers aren't the three glorious virgin birthed sons of MD that legend says they are. The implication is that thee truth is far less impressive than the reality. There's no reference to or hint of Father Light, and from what we see in RG, Rake and co were already around when Mommy D got her freak on with Daddy L.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Abyss, on 11 April 2011 - 02:01 PM, said:

Battle Plaptypus, on 10 April 2011 - 05:34 PM, said:

...Udinass guessed that the three brothers dark probably weren't as dark as they claimed to be, implying that father light could be their father.

Not quite. Udinaas speculates that the brothers aren't the three glorious virgin birthed sons of MD that legend says they are. The implication is that thee truth is far less impressive than the reality. There's no reference to or hint of Father Light, and from what we see in RG, Rake and co were already around when Mommy D got her freak on with Daddy L.

Sorry Abyss but Apt is right. Udinaas is thinking wether deep down they knew FL was their father and their rage against him was just a big Oedipus complex

[Abyss]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 11 April 2011 - 02:15 PM, said:

Abyss, on 11 April 2011 - 02:01 PM, said:

Battle Plaptypus, on 10 April 2011 - 05:34 PM, said:

...Udinass guessed that the three brothers dark probably weren't as dark as they claimed to be, implying that father light could be their father.

Not quite. Udinaas speculates that the brothers aren't the three glorious virgin birthed sons of MD that legend says they are. The implication is that thee truth is far less impressive than the reality. There's no reference to or hint of Father Light, and from what we see in RG, Rake and co were already around when Mommy D got her freak on with Daddy L.

Sorry Abyss but Apt is right. Udinaas is thinking wether deep down they knew FL was their father and their rage against him was just a big Oedipus complex

I could be wrong... can anyone work some quote fu here?

[MTS]

Quote

'Spawn of Mother Dark, yes, but then, there were plenty of those, weren't there? Was there something that set those three apart? Andarist, Anomander, Silchas. What did Clip tell us? Oh, right, nothing. But we saw the tapestries, didn't we? Andarist, like midnight itself. Anomander, with hair of blazing white. And here, Silchas, our walking bloodless abomination, whiter than any corpse but just as friendly. So what caused the great rift between sons and mother? Maybe it wasn't her spreading her legs to Light like a stepfather none of them wanted. Maybe that's all a lie, one of those sweetly convenient ones. Maybe, Seren Pedac, it was finding out who their father was.'
She could not help but follow his gaze to where stood Silchas Ruin. Then she snorted and turned away. 'Does it matter?'
'Does it matter? Not right now,' Udinaas said. 'But it will.'
'Why? Every family has its secrets.'
He laughed. 'I have my own question. If Silchas Ruin is all Light on the outside, what must he be on the inside?'
'The world is his mirror.'
But the world we now look upon is a lie.
'Udinaas, I thought the Tiste Edur were the children of Mother Dark and Father Light.'
'Successive generations, probably. Not in any obvious way connected to those three brothers.'
'Scabandari.'
'Yes, I imagine so. Father Shadow, right? Ah, what a family that was! Let's not forget the sisters! Menandore with her raging fire of dawn, Sheltatha Lore the loving dusk, and Sukul Ankhadu, treacherous bitch of night. Were there others? There must have been, but they've since fallen by the wayside. Myths prefer manageable numbers, after all, and three always works best. Three of this, three of that.'
'But Scabandari would be the fourth—'
'Andarist is dead.'
'Oh. Andarist is dead.' And how does he know such things? Who speaks to you, Udinaas, in your nightly fevers?

So there's the exchange in full. Apt is right.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Here it is:

RG page857 MMPB

Quote

"Maybe it wasn't her [MD] spreading her legs to Light like a stepfather none of them wanted. Maybe that's all a lie, one of those sweetly convenient ones. Maybe,Seren Pedac, it was finding who their father was."

[Abyss]

I agree it's at least implied.

On the other hand, it can't go beyond implication, since Udinaas also calls Menandore, Sukul and Sheltana 'sisters', and we know only Menandore and Sukul were actually that.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Actually he says "sisters,cousins or whatever other relation" or something to that effect. Also, these are all hypothesis. Udinaas is making theories he's not spouting facts.

[Aptorian]

MTS, on 11 April 2011 - 02:25 PM, said:

So there's the exchange in full. Apt is right.

Naturally.

[blackzoid]

No, it doesn't make any sense for it to have happened that way.
We know from Sichas own recollections in DoD, that the 3 brothers were around when Draconous first came to the Tiste Andii Court.
Then he became the consort of Mother Dark, then he was later rejected and she met up with Father Light. Then at some indeterminate stage the Andii left Kharkanas/Mother Dark turned away and then Draconous finished forging Dragnipur.

In order for Udinaas' theory to work, she would have had to bed Father Light , then dump him and go with Draconous, then dump him and go back to Father Light. Thats a bit convoulted.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 11 April 2011 - 05:25 PM

[Aptorian]

Are you doubting Udinass powers of deduction?

[blackzoid]

Yes!

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Heretic! There are places in Hood's Path for people like you!

[MTS]

blackzoid, on 11 April 2011 - 05:23 PM, said:

No, it doesn't make any sense for it to have happened that way.
We know from Sichas own recollections in DoD, that the 3 brothers were around when Draconous first came to the Tiste Andii Court.
Then he became the consort of Mother Dark, then he was later rejected and she met up with Father Light. Then at some indeterminate stage the Andii left Kharkanas/Mother Dark turned away and then Draconous finished forging Dragnipur.

In order for Udinaas' theory to work, she would have had to bed Father Light , then dump him and go with Draconous, then dump him and go back to Father Light. Thats a bit convoulted.

Quote

'Consort to Mother Dark - he laid claim to that title, eventually, as if it was a role he had lost and had vowed to reacquire.' The white-skinned warrior snorted, eyes fixed on the flickering flames. 'Who were we to challenge that assertion? Mother's children had by then ceased to speak with her. No matter. What son would not challenge his mother's lover new lover, old lover, whatever—'
...
I wondered if Anomander has regrets. I know that I do not. Draconus was a cold, cold bastard - and with the awakening of Father Light, ah, well, we saw then the truth of his jealous rage. The Consort cast aside, see the malice of the spurned ignite a black fire in his eyes! When we speak of ancient times, Rud Elalle, we find in our words things far nearer to hand, and all those emotions we imagined new, blazing with our own youth, we find to be ancient beyond imagining.'

Draconus was MD's lover before he showed up in Kharkanas, so it does make sense, and it's likely MD didn't shack up FL just the one time. Then again, Udinaas' speculation is off anyway. He postulates that it was the sons finding out who their father was that caused all the ruckus, when in fact it was Anomander's killing of Tiam. Silchas and Endest were there at the time, so their accounts are perhaps more reliable, but Udinaas isn't entirely wrong in exposing the myth, he may have just reached the wrong conclusion.

[Hetan]

After reading through TCG I am so stoked to read this book - the only other back-story that I would love to read more of is the history of the Human First Empire and the story of Dessimbelackis.

Now there's lots of stuff in TCG that could pertain to this story - indeed after reading through all the stuff on the Shake etc, that has to be part of this story.

Regarding the speculation above... Draconus was consort to MD and yet for some reason she later decided to get it on with Father Light and marry him. This caused the rift between the Andii, the Liosan and the Edur - why? - well we don't know that yet. What we do know is that Anomander decided that he needed the power of the eleint, of being soletaken, to win his sides victory (for want of a better word).

Also regarding the above posts - we know that Menandore and Sukhul were sisters and Sheltatha was a cousin - Osserc is quite plain about that in MT - and I think his POV is more reliable than Udinaas - Osserc being the father of those two After all Udinaas gets his info from Menandore and we know that she's a treacherous bitch.

[tiam]

I have to say I thought the three of them, Menandoe, sukhul and sheltatha, were all sisters and all children of Scabby.

I have a feeling that in the Andii trilogy the Eleint will be players or atleast enemies of the Tiste. That would make Rake embracing of Tiam all the more potent.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

tiam, on 15 May 2011 - 06:32 PM, said:

I have to say I thought the three of them, Menandoe, sukhul and sheltatha, were all sisters and all children of Scabby.

I have a feeling that in the Andii trilogy the Eleint will be players or atleast enemies of the Tiste. That would make Rake embracing of Tiam all the more potent.

I'm pretty sure them all being sisters and children of Scabby is just the way its portrayed in Edur mythology, at least on the Letheras continent.

And idk what the Liosan or Edur/Shake will think of the Eleint, but it seems like the Eleint should be the real enemies of Mother Dark and by extension the Andii, as they personify chaos and MD order.

[tiam]

Exactly the Eleint appear to be the natural enemies of atleast the Andii but maybe all the Tiste. Something to think about.

Your probably right about the Edur mythology and I must have misread it since then as it probably been mentioned atleast in RG. Anyone got any quote fu/ general idea?