[King Bear]

 Bauchelain the Evil, on 03 May 2011 - 05:23 AM, said:

You'd better spoiler that. This is the MoI forum.

Yeah was just about to say.

Sheldon would find the comment on the ending of DOD upsetting. "Once your mind is pre-blown, it cannot be re-blown."

[CussersForChristmas]

When Brukhalian knowingly went to his death to enact the reve on the priest of the masked council, that was really heavy and brave. A lot of deaths came to noble characters in MoI but he went willingly, seeing that he couldn't come out alive so that itkovian could avenge him, and then afterwards how Itkovian takes the priest's pain regardless of losing fener. That set up convinced me that something tragic was in store for Itkovian.

After that though I got kind of tired of Itkovian's masochism though, it was heroic but kind of creepy.

And the scene that Abyss described after Stonny got raped really got to me. Imo rape is one of the horrors of war that doesn't get discussed as much, so actually showing the aftermath was pretty brutal.

I agree that whiskeyjack's death was heavily forshadowed but it bothered me all the same when Korlat just looked up into the sky in despair.

[Arthur Dayne]

Being prior military, I actually cried at the genuine outpouring for Itkovian when the buried him in tokens of themselves. It really gave you a sense of true gratitude that words would pale to in comparison. I could only dream of being shown that kind of respect for my service in life.

[Toc Beddict]

The most crushing for me was how WJ's death just leveled everyone. Korlat and Dujek understandably, but even Caladan Brood and Rake, beings who have seen death a million times over, were humbled by this one man's death and sacrifice. All to protect Silverfox, who had been acting selfishly since the very beginning.

[Kanese S's]

So much sadness in this book. Stonny's rape hit me hard, the line she used that implied it, about how begging hadn't worked for her, so why should it work for the Seerdomin?

And of course, Whiskeyjack and Itkovian. ;_;

[Kanubis]

TCG Spoiler, big spoiler of the absolute 'do not open this if you haven't read TCG variety:'

Spoiler

The whole reuniting of Togg and Fanderay is actually tragic on a reread now that you know that they only get a couple of years (or eight years in alternative Harllo Jr. the Timelord world) together before one of them dies. After thousands upon thousands of years of searching for each other.

[Kanese S's]

Holy shit, that's true. And incredibly tragic. I hadn't even thought about that, honestly. Now I'm holding back tears. Damn you, Kanubis!

[Use Of Weapons]

The thing that gets me about Itkovian is not his actual, final line (though that does make me well up too), but the scene at his cairn afterwards. Every time I reread it, it's through a veil of tears.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Was going to say Whiskeyjack's death hit me harder than anything else in the series, but figured I'd hold back until my re-read now that I'm a bit older and am taking the book as it comes instead of kind of rushing towards the end.

Nope. Still that one. Made me cry just like it did 6-7 years ago.

[Fid]

Just finished MoI as part of first end-to-end reread of the series and ewven knowing everything that comes after, I think the sheer pathos of the scene in Rake's throne room in Moons Spawn with Paran and QB with QB going through the fallen BB's is just too much. There are many moving scenes in the whole series but MOI seems to bring more of them together in a short span of pages.

[hmqb]

The culmination of all of these is just part of what makes it such a great book. You know its awesome when you get so emotionally attached to it XD

[CircleBinder]

"'Perhaps,' Baruk murmured, 'perhaps you are right in that. We ask too much-'
'Of them. Yes.' The old man looked down once more at the cloth in his hands."

On the cloth is of course written the name of Duiker's female soldier friend from DG. I found that gesture and these words heart wrenching because it makes you recall the thousands of malazan deaths that we bare witness to throughout DG and MoI.

[Phaedrus]

Honestly as sad as I felt after Whiskeyjacks death, Id say the massacre at Capustan, or really just the whole Pannion Domin history would be the most depressing. Even just the idea of Tenescowri makes me sad

To me Whiskeyjack was a soldier- soldier's die... But innocent civilians driven to cannibalism and used as some kind of weapon of mass destruction is just utterly tragic and horrific.

[ScionOfStorm]

MoI has some of the most tragical events, imo.

Itkovian was one of my favourite characters back then (and still is), but I somehow knew that he'd die - he was both too much of a masochist and too good for the Malazan, such as <other characters>, which I would not spoil since they are from the next books.

Both his and WJ's death were hard for me as a reader. Especially WJ was everyone's favourite (judging from my friends' opinions).

[jasec]

I was really touched when Tool lost his fight utterly vs Seguleh the third. Then when his sister saves him he said to her, this was just the third, there is a second and first. Our time has passed...

something along those lines.

[Deren]

Certainly not Whiskeyjack's death. Sorry, that's just too stupid. And Kallor. What a joke. It's like the characters in this world are all mentally not older than twelve. A disaster like this is kind of foreshadowed, but the way it happens is just "oh, really? Aha..." Frustrating, but too stupid to be affecting. Even if the stupidity is kind of the point... no, it's just stupid. Argh, this series is too silly for me, I'm dropping out after this book.

This post has been edited by Deren: 16 October 2011 - 07:47 PM

[Tempest]

 Deren, on 16 October 2011 - 07:42 PM, said:

Certainly not Whiskeyjack's death. Sorry, that's just too stupid. And Kallor. What a joke. It's like the characters in this world are all mentally not older than twelve. A disaster like this is kind of foreshadowed, but the way it happens is just "oh, really? Aha..." Frustrating, but too stupid to be affecting. Even if the stupidity is kind of the point... no, it's just stupid. Argh, this series is too silly for me, I'm dropping out after this book.

Do you read a lot of fantasy?

Because if you do, and you like other texts, I'd like to know why you believe the mentality of these characters to be so childish (or, at the very least, one dimensional -- although granted, yes, a couple of them are the latter).
If you do not, I suppose such a sentiment is understandable.


Oh, and Itkovian hands down. I mean, that man is a standard for all humanity, fictional or non-fictional.

[Sinisdar Toste]

 Deren, on 16 October 2011 - 07:42 PM, said:

Certainly not Whiskeyjack's death. Sorry, that's just too stupid. And Kallor. What a joke. It's like the characters in this world are all mentally not older than twelve. A disaster like this is kind of foreshadowed, but the way it happens is just "oh, really? Aha..." Frustrating, but too stupid to be affecting. Even if the stupidity is kind of the point... no, it's just stupid. Argh, this series is too silly for me, I'm dropping out after this book.

i have to say, this is the first time i've ever seen tMBotF criticized for being 'too silly'

[Deren]

As a note that is more to the topic, I actually found the whole ending, the burials, grief and farewells appropriately sad.

 Tempest, on 20 October 2011 - 07:37 PM, said:

 Deren, on 16 October 2011 - 07:42 PM, said:

Certainly not Whiskeyjack's death. Sorry, that's just too stupid. And Kallor. What a joke. It's like the characters in this world are all mentally not older than twelve. A disaster like this is kind of foreshadowed, but the way it happens is just "oh, really? Aha..." Frustrating, but too stupid to be affecting. Even if the stupidity is kind of the point... no, it's just stupid. Argh, this series is too silly for me, I'm dropping out after this book.

Do you read a lot of fantasy?

A large proportion of what I read is fantasy, but not exclusively and now very selectively. And it's true that comparing it with other standards influences my critical reaction, but I think it's also fair (at least in certain aspects) as a criticism of Steven Erikson's success of his own intentions.

 Tempest, on 20 October 2011 - 07:37 PM, said:

Because if you do, and you like other texts, I'd like to know why you believe the mentality of these characters to be so childish (or, at the very least, one dimensional -- although granted, yes, a couple of them are the latter).
If you do not, I suppose such a sentiment is understandable.

It's probably mentioned or suggested at some points in the series that the gods appear like spoiled children. The same is true of many of the greedy, competitive, conspiring and selfish councilors, priests, nobles, politicians and merchants in this series. Steven Erikson portrays them in the simplest way possible and deliberately denies them access to higher brain-functions, so to speak. You'll never see them do anything that isn't directly or indirectly harmful for the commonality and in the longer run for themselves. Just because they're wired that way. Whether you agree with the general idea of this worldview or not, they should be something more than mere puppets of vice.

But this applies not only to the negative. You can't count how many times characters "snap" and "sneer" or otherwise show their immediate affects, whether it's a high-ranking officer in front of his troops, an immortal being or whatever. Also in their inner lives they are constantly whipped about by the slightest incentives. In a negotiation and conference they get easily distracted by their feelings and smaller interests thus all the while risking the fate of the world and the course of history to some chance mood. And everyone happily joins in as if this wasn't subjective but the most objective thing to do. But of course everything turns out the way it should so that it feels like the author is the ultimate conspiring god, in all good but mostly in bad.
Kallor is an especially hard case. Shortly before his betrayal he makes his most snappy and sneery action for the least reasons since quite a while. Even if I believe him to be so hateful and hardbeant on his obsessions, the way it's written is nothing short of ridiculous and inauthentic, let alone having the others bear with it. And then he becomes the instrument of the most random, inopportune "tragic-relief" scene in the midst of battle preparations. Being ridiculous devalues the big impact he makes and the way it happens is similar to all the other little snaps.
Then there are also all the comic relief scenes, of course, which sometimes take up more pages than relevant events and tend to go all along the same lines, and characters often appearing like cartoons or Anime characters.

I'm sure this is largely a conscious style of characterisation. It comes with the bag of all the high fantasy, RPG-like stuff. I even chose this series in the expectation of all the high fantasy, RPG-like stuff. But I think Steven Erikson shouldn't have so fully, uncritically embraced this kind of characterisation, even if he thinks it's the most enjoyable style of writing or just fast and relatively easy. It's too shallow for some of the more serious elements.

 Minhasing Bheget, on 20 October 2011 - 11:43 PM, said:

 Deren, on 16 October 2011 - 07:42 PM, said:

Certainly not Whiskeyjack's death. Sorry, that's just too stupid. And Kallor. What a joke. It's like the characters in this world are all mentally not older than twelve. A disaster like this is kind of foreshadowed, but the way it happens is just "oh, really? Aha..." Frustrating, but too stupid to be affecting. Even if the stupidity is kind of the point... no, it's just stupid. Argh, this series is too silly for me, I'm dropping out after this book.

i have to say, this is the first time i've ever seen tMBotF criticized for being 'too silly'

I don't think it's such an unusual criticism of the series in general although it might not be often with this exact word. Other words where this is often implied are strange, confusing, incomprehensible, over-the-top, nerd-fantasy...

This post has been edited by Deren: 22 October 2011 - 12:09 PM

[Tempest]

Stylistically, I definitely see where you're coming from.

However, from "epic" fantasy, I tend to expect such characterizations. In fact, I think that in general, there are few books that master true characterizations (but one I'd note, although not "fantasy", is Stranger in a Strange Land) .

Furthermore, while their actions indeed reflect all the above points, I think that the streams iof consciousness of the characters that Erikson presents negates that inception to an extent. I feel as though there is a lot more depth in there, and that as such we can consider the one-dimensionality, so to speak, otherwise presented by the sneers and all (I did laugh at that), to be more of that as observed by other characters. When I judge someone, for instance, I do so quite simplistically, and spoiled-ly myself!