[worry]

The problem I have with that is it relies on the common mistake that insists three-dimensionality is "realistic". I suppose if you want your fictional characters to be more than real, that's fair enough, since fiction can do that. But if you're insisting that actual human beings are often or regularly much deeper than their facades, and that presenting them in fiction like easily-read sacks of dopey whim and emotion is getting it wrong, then I'm afraid you're operating under a false premise. But like I said, if it's just a preference in your fiction to go "deeper", then SE tends to do that with some characters and not others, deliberately. If you don't feel like rolling with that, fair enough.

[Tempest]

worrywort, on 22 October 2011 - 05:56 PM, said:

But if you're insisting that actual human beings are often or regularly much deeper than their facades, and that presenting them in fiction like easily-read sacks of dopey whim and emotion is getting it wrong, then I'm afraid you're operating under a false premise.

I'm afraid you can't merely state that as a false premise. That's entering some ambiguous philosophical terrain that once again does just reduce to personal beliefs, much like personal tastes in fiction.
I suppose my own opinion is that the fictional characters of SE for instance are relatively human yes, but so much more extreme than that. Everything has so much more conviction, or so much less conviction, and force behind it, if you see what I mean, whereas classically I do consider real human beings as being much more "grey", given much more to lack of action and opinion.

[worry]

No, I've personally confirmed as fact that human beings are, all told, basically plain round donuts with googly eyes pasted to them. The era of debate on this issue, while quite interesting and even enjoyable, has officially concluded. Which isn't to say the discussion of fictional characters should end with it (my sentiment is quite the opposite), only that comparisons of fiction to "real life" should discontinue the delusion that figurative three-dimensionality equates to accuracy.

[Tempest]

Fair enough. Mildly off topic, then, but my interest has been perked: who do you think the most multi-faceted character in Erikson's novels was?

I've always thought Whiskeyjack, but it's sometimes hard to really tell too because Erikson keeps so much hidden (I suppose to spur the imagination and whatnot). Brys appears to be pretty well-rounded as well, showing a variety of different personality points.

[worry]

I'm actually half-kidding. I do think the expectation that fictional characters portray well-roundedness, depth, etc. doesn't actually correspond with being "realistic" but I also believe there's more variety than I presented above. For instance, I think plenty of sketchy TV characters aren't at all more shallowly drawn than actual people choose to be, even if it's irksome to watch sometimes. Soap operas are full of melodrama, but I don't even think that's particularly unrealistic. I guess the weirdness only comes with having melodramatic stuff happen to the same characters over and over, so it's more a case of diminishing returns than implausibility or unrealistic storytelling at the level of individual events. Hope that makes sense. Essentially, a lot of "bad" storytelling isn't unrealistic, but actual reality is divorced from peoples' takes on reality, so it has the illusion of being unrealistic.

Also, I think I was originally responding to Deren and then kinda mixed up your first response and his or even conflated the points you were making (I was posting while working, the other day). So sorry about that. I'm not sure I even disagree with much of what you said; definitely agree that POV doesn't necessarily capture other characters' inner workings accurately, and SE goes for that pretty hard sometimes. But I also don't think absurd or arbitrary behaviors and decisions (or naked sneers, or snappy soliloquies) are particularly implausible or unlikely.

Lastly, that's a good question, not sure I could answer that properly in the MOI forum. Up to this point, I might have to say Kalam (who sometimes gets overshadowed by QB or Fid). I wouldn't argue with WJ either though. I might also put Crone up there...she's not human, but we do get a lot of genuine personality from her, and it's multi-faceted.

[Dmyster]

The saddest part for me was when the T'lan Imass paid their respect to Itkovian, and proceeded in creating Itkovian's Gift. Whiskeyjack's death and well as Bruckhalian's also left me quite saddened.

[Tattersail_]

I wasn't saddened by the T'lan Imass, I was happy for them. I was most saddened by Whiskeyjack's death, he was a great man and loved by all.

[wullagaru]

Tempest, on 23 October 2011 - 11:48 PM, said:

Fair enough. Mildly off topic, then, but my interest has been perked: who do you think the most multi-faceted character in Erikson's novels was?

I've always thought Whiskeyjack, but it's sometimes hard to really tell too because Erikson keeps so much hidden (I suppose to spur the imagination and whatnot). Brys appears to be pretty well-rounded as well, showing a variety of different personality points.

WJ was to a degree I'd also say Paran..

Spoiler

from what we see in GotM through TCG he shows a lot

as for the threads initial question: the retelling of gruntle and the 1/2 eaten child always gets me

This post has been edited by wullagaru: 07 February 2012 - 12:06 AM

[worry]

It's a spoiler to say who is or isn't in future books.

[wullagaru]

worrywort, on 06 February 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

It's a spoiler to say who is or isn't in future books.

woops sorry! fixed now though, thanks!

[Grimjazz]

Whiskeyjack's death was one the sadest deaths ever. I'm struggling to think of another's characters death from any series that has ever upset me as much as his did.

[Murillo]

At first i was sad for Whiskeyjack and the Bridgeburners but at the end Duiker remembered me Coltaine's destiny and my heart started bleeding again. The Abyss takes you Duiker!

[nilco]

No death struck me as hard as when Itkovian died, he is in my opinion the finest fictional character ever created, his death wasent the saddest part tho, it was in the end when everyone was going to pay there respects to him.

The second saddest part for me was everything with tool and toc, when we found tool outside coral going in to get his kin, then the final good bye in the end when tool visits anister to check up on toc.

Third for me was Duikers final lines in the book, it made me remember coltain and the chain of dogs...

Fourth would be the saying good bye of whiskeyjack, I did not like his character very much but seeing everyone around him so sad when he had died got to me....

[BigNukes]

When Tool set to rescue his brother Toc was pretty moving for me, and I don't know if it was WhiskeyJacks death that really saddened me (although he is probably my fav character in the books) but maybe more the reactions that his and Ictovians deaths recieved. Such as the adding of items for a seal, Rake's comment of paying his respects, One Arms comment of losing a friend, Quicks thinking of brining Kalam to Moons spawn etc. All of those and more were pretty touching.

Grimjazz, on 14 February 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

Whiskeyjack's death was one the sadest deaths ever. I'm struggling to think of another's characters death from any series that has ever upset me as much as his did.

As for this, Ned Starks death in the Game of Thrones absolutely crushed and infuriated me. WJ's death didn't hit me nearly as hard, but I think I do like Ericksons approach and aftermath to killing off a main character in a general sense just as well as Martins.

[worry]

Don't spoil other authors' books without a well-marked Spoiler Tag.

[Soma]

I think the part that made me most sad was when the various Bridgeburners started dying. In particular Hedges death was hard as it was so sudden. That Whiskeyjack would die seemed kinda obvious so I was prepared for that, tho I must say that Mallets reactions to his death, when he notices his damaged legs was kinda tear inducing too...

[ColtaineRattlesSlow]

The first time I genuinely cried reading a book was when Itkovian, after absorbing so many thousand souls, just fell back and died, in the shadow of Moon Spawn, with the rain falling on him. It was a different kind of sadness for me to, for example, the Chain of Dogs. That left me feeling almost depressed for the rest of the day after I read that, and made me so furiously angry. Itkovian's death had a certain peace and finality about it, so I was okay with it, which isn't to say I didn't cry like a little child.

I also teared up during Itkovian's funeral, when all the soldiers left small gifts for him, as well as when Paran and Quick Ben visited the Bridge Burners' sargophigase, and Quick Ben left a stone before saying one day he would like to return there with Kalam. I personally wasn't that affected by Whiskeyjack's death, but probably only because the Chain of Dogs has numbed me towards any shocking deaths now. Whenever somebody mentioned Duiker's name in MoI I felt so sad.

I should also add that I hate that Duiker was resurrected. His death was so tragic and depressing, and for him to just be brought back into the story so casually sort of lessened the impact of his death and all of the Chain of Dogs, which is probably my favorite single storyline from any book I'vs ever read. RIP Coltaine

[Zuzu Bolin]

Oh my god, when Quick Ben placed one of his pebbles on the floor in Moon's Spawn because he said he might visit later, with Kalam. I was crying like a baby.

[Fiddlerstrings]

After finishing a re-read today I'd have to say that the tear jerkers for me were many and varied. Gruntle carrying Stonny back to the tenement building in his arms and the raising of the child's tunic standard.
When Korlat and Whiskeyjack's eyes meet as he dies on Kallor's sword.
Onos Tool'an greeting Toc Anaster and then leaving with his sister.
The un-named marine asking to return Itkovians helm and crying when he believes he will be refused only for the entire armies to raise a barrow of gifts in his honour.
Mallet collapsing when he inspects Whiskeyjack's body and realising the leg gave out.
Itkovian looking to his destriant to heal his horse.
The BB's demise, one and all.
Wonderful story wonderful emotions.