Malazan Empire: Stay the f&*k out of this thread if you want to avoid spoilers... - Malazan Empire

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Stay the f&*k out of this thread if you want to avoid spoilers... Innocent stuff, true, but you have been warned... Rate Topic: -----

#21 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 02:33 AM

It does go on, yes.

Quote

"To survive, we must forget. So Icarium told us. Those things that we had come to, those things that softened us. We must abandon them. We must dismantle our …" I know not that word, "and shatter each and every stone, leaving no evidence of what we had been. We must burn our …" another word I do not know, "and leave naught but ash. We must forget our history and seek only our most ancient of legends. Legends that told of a time when we lived simply. In the forests. Hunting, culling fish from the rivers, raising horses. When our laws were those of the raider, the slayer, when all was measured by the sweep of a sword.

You're assuming that 'boats' is one of the words Karsa doesn't know, but I happen to believe one of them is as well. It makes sense, especially if the Teblor have no memory of seafaring (or maybe even seeing the ocean). They obviously had to cross a sea at some point, and it is likely they 'originated' somewhere else other than Genabackis. I concede all of that. However, that could merely be another process of ensuring isolation, by severing the contact they would make with the outside world through the sea.

It seems to me that they were living around the Hudd Sea in the far north of Genabackis, since there is a Toblai Tundra and a Tarthen Range in the area. When the three Teblor reach the place where Calm is imprisoned, Delum Thord spouts off a legend about the 'Spirit Wars':

Quote

'In the time of the Spirit Wars, when our old gods were young,' Delum said. 'What, Karsa Orlong, do you recall of that tale? It was so brief, nothing more than torn pieces. The elders themselves admitted that most of it had been lost long ago, before the Seven awoke.'
'Pieces,' Karsa agreed. 'The Spirit Wars were two, perhaps three invasions, and had little to do with the Teblor. Foreign gods and demons. Their battles shook the mountains, and then but one force remained—'
'In those tales,' Delum interjected, 'are the only mention of Icarium. Karsa Orlong, it may be that the T'lan Imass - spoken of in that elder's cave - belonged to the Spirit Wars, and that they were the victors, who then left never to return. It may be that it was the Spirit Wars that shattered our people.'
Bairoth's gaze remained on the slab. Now he spoke. 'The demon must be freed.'
Both Karsa and Delum turned to him, struck silent by the pronouncement.
'Say nothing,' Bairoth continued, 'until I have finished. The Forkassal was said to have come to the place of the Spirit Wars, seeking to make peace between the contestants. That is one of the torn pieces of the tale. For the demon's effort it was destroyed. That is another piece. Icarium too sought to end the war, but he arrived too late, and the victors knew they could not defeat him so they did not even try. A third piece. Delum Thord, the words in the cave also spoke of Icarium, yes?'
'They did, Bairoth Gild. Icarium gave the Teblor the Laws that ensured our survival.'

Now, the Spirit Wars are almost certainly a moniker for the Tiste invasions. We know that one of them, the big one by Silchas and Scabandari, occurred on Lether, but didn't seem to have world-spanning implications. Either there's something we're missing, or it may refer to one of the other invasions, perhaps by Rake (and Andarist?). What seems odd to me is that there is mention of the T'lan Imass slaughtering the Toblakai living there, and a Tiste invasion contributing to the shattering of their civilisation (at least on Genabackis). There is mention of 'indiscriminate slaughter', so it does not seem that the Toblakai were their particular targets, just simply there at the time...argh! It's too confusing. :killingme:

Anyway, my point was that I don't think the Laws of Isolation were the impetus for a grand migration a la prehistoric man out of Africa, but that the Toblakai in northern Genabackis were decimated by the events mentioned above and were forced to go into total isolation to save themselves, and this did not affect the Toblakai living elsewhere. The Barghast have Toblakai blood, and they continued their ancestors' seafaring ways. The Toblakai traveled with the Edur on the seas, IIRC, so certainly had a civilisation beyond the Tiste invasions.

This post has been edited by MTS: 16 October 2010 - 02:37 AM

Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

Si hoc adfixum in obice legere potes, et liberaliter educatus et nimis propinquus ades.
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#22 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 07:00 AM

well, the way i read it it was toblakai and imass fighting the edur on the rust ocean and their descendants were the barghast ... though a purer toblakai breed could have splintered off to the north end of genebackis.

when you call the spirit wars a tiste invasion, are you basing that on anything, or just a hunch? can't really think of anything suggesting that, though i don't think the enemy of the TI was ever mentioned. only other principals i can think of are calm, icarium and the toblakai society that existed at that time.

a sky keep also showed up in that area at some point too. did it have any nah'ruk in it when it got to laederon? did somebody create those glaciers just to hold that keep? maybe it was a jhag named iccy... just a thought.

as i see it the only thing linking tiste to northern genebackis is anomander discovering moons spawn, long after it arrived there
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#23 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 09:03 AM

Two or three invasions of 'foreign gods and demons', whose battles shook the 'mountains' (skykeeps)? I really can't see what else it could be, to be honest.

EDIT - yes, I know that mountain bit was a stretch, but certainly a foreign invasion (perhaps Anomander's or another Tiste) of interlopers would have attracted hostility, as Silchas and Bloodeye did. It doesn't sound like a Jaghut War, but it was great enough to bring a Forkrul Assail and Icarium to try and stop it.

This post has been edited by MTS: 16 October 2010 - 09:06 AM

Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

Si hoc adfixum in obice legere potes, et liberaliter educatus et nimis propinquus ades.
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#24 User is offline   pat5150 

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 03:57 PM

Hmmm, what other minor spoiler could I throw your way???

Maybe I'll just mess with your minds with a bunch of random words. . . Yeah, that sounds about right! :)

Whether they play a major role or they're just mentioned innocently in the narrative, they should get a lot of speculation going!

Here we go:

K'Chain Che'Malle, Assail, the Enchantress, Black Moranth, Fingers, cult of Dessembrae, Perish, Nok, the Seguleh, Sha'ik, Claw, Hound of Light, Manask, Rillish, L'oric, Skinner, and Army of Reform. . .

Have fun! As for me, I'm going to start reading Jordan/Sanderson's Towers of Midnight later today! :killingme:

Patrick
For book reviews, author interviews, giveaways, related articles and news, and much more, check out www.fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com
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#25 User is offline   Urizen 

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 04:07 PM

Any Ghelel or Amamnas/Cotillion/Shadow appearance?
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#26 User is offline   pat5150 

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 05:15 PM

Sorry, that's all you're getting from me. . . :killingme:

Patrick
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#27 User is offline   Tsundoku 

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 02:44 AM

View Postpat5150, on 16 October 2010 - 05:15 PM, said:

Sorry, that's all you're getting from me. . . :)

Patrick


... and people wonder why we hate the French. :killingme:

To quote Napoleon from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure:

"Merde! Merde! Merde! Merde! Merde! Merde! Merde! Merde! Merde!
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#28 User is offline   James Hetfield 

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 06:50 AM

Pat, are you French Canadian?

Not judging, just curious.......
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#29 User is offline   Excellence 

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 10:40 AM

Oh Pat, I was ok to wait for the paperback until I read those names...

It's only a year, right? I can wait a year... :p
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#30 User is offline   pat5150 

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 12:35 PM

View PostJames Hetfield, on 17 October 2010 - 06:50 AM, said:

Pat, are you French Canadian?

Not judging, just curious.......


Yep! Sad but true! :p

Patrick
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#31 User is offline   Bob_Vernen 

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 04:28 PM

View Postpat5150, on 16 October 2010 - 03:57 PM, said:

Hmmm, what other minor spoiler could I throw your way???

Maybe I'll just mess with your minds with a bunch of random words. . . Yeah, that sounds about right! :p

Whether they play a major role or they're just mentioned innocently in the narrative, they should get a lot of speculation going!

Here we go:

K'Chain Che'Malle, Assail, the Enchantress, Black Moranth, Fingers, cult of Dessembrae, Perish, Nok, the Seguleh, Sha'ik, Claw, Hound of Light, Manask, Rillish, L'oric, Skinner, and Army of Reform. . .

Have fun! As for me, I'm going to start reading Jordan/Sanderson's Towers of Midnight later today! :p

Patrick


So can we assume that you have finished Stonewielder?
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#32 User is offline   pat5150 

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 09:56 PM

Of course I did! :p

As I mentioned in the other thread, expect a review this week. . . :p

Patrick
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#33 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 04:17 AM

View Postpat5150, on 16 October 2010 - 03:57 PM, said:

Hmmm, what other minor spoiler could I throw your way???

Maybe I'll just mess with your minds with a bunch of random words. .....Rillish, ...



Really?!? That IS a surprise.

And now dammit i have to ask... Nait/Jumpy???
THIS IS YOUR REMINDER THAT THERE IS A
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#34 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 04:39 AM

Rillish, as in war-leader for the Wickans, Rillish? That invites all sorts of juicy possibilities.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#35 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:55 AM

Man, look at that list! One might say I will certainly Rillish the day I get my hands on this.
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.

Si hoc adfixum in obice legere potes, et liberaliter educatus et nimis propinquus ades.
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#36 User is offline   pat5150 

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 01:03 PM

You will indeed! :p

Patrick
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#37 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 02:27 PM

View PostAbyss, on 18 October 2010 - 04:17 AM, said:

View Postpat5150, on 16 October 2010 - 03:57 PM, said:

Hmmm, what other minor spoiler could I throw your way???

Maybe I'll just mess with your minds with a bunch of random words. .....Rillish, ...



Really?!? That IS a surprise.

And now dammit i have to ask... Nait/Jumpy???



View PostMTS, on 18 October 2010 - 09:55 AM, said:

Man, look at that list! One might say I will certainly Rillish the day I get my hands on this.



View Postpat5150, on 18 October 2010 - 01:03 PM, said:

You will indeed! :p

Patrick


ANSWER MY QUESTION DAMN YOU!!!!!!!!

- Abyss, just finishing that anticipatory RCG re-read you see...
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#38 User is offline   pat5150 

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 03:35 PM

Rillish' presence is not at all surprising when you discover the man's back story... :p

That's all you'll get from me...

Patrick
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#39 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 03:38 PM

Posted Image
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'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
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#40 User is offline   pat5150 

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 04:10 PM

Believe me, it's for your own good! :p

But you are in for some good shit!

Patrick
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