[amphibian]

Did Apt see it already? That's the real opportunity for weirdness.

[dktorode]

MTS, on 01 July 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

dktorode, on 01 July 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

MTS, on 01 July 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

dktorode, on 01 July 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

MTS, on 01 July 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Spoiler

Superman saves the busload of kids and then the mother of the bully flips out, but then they kind of just leave it there. Superman says that his father's greatest fear was that if humanity found out who he really was then they'd reject him. But they don't. At all. Lois Lane and Perry White are ludicrously calm when they're discussing the possibility of aliens living on earth. So why not make a movie about humanity rejecting Superman? It would be a far more interesting picture than Superman throwing people and being thrown through buildings for an hour, which is what we got, as it would leave Superman truly bereft of both his Kryptonian and human connections.

maybe the problem is you dont pay enough attention to the movies you watch.

Spoiler

The mother that flips out clearly puts the bus incident down to "an act of god". Pa Kent smiles and walks out after realising clark hasn't been "outed" .

And as far as Lois and Perry being calm...what do you expect professional journalists to do?...run around waving their arms in the air screaming "The aliens are coming, the aliens are coming!!"?
And you said it yourself...they are discussing the "possibility of aliens on earth.
Come now...people do that all the time.

Spoiler

I know what happened in the scene. That's what I mean however, they left it there as 'act of God' when they could have done a lot more with it. The Kents facing outright hostility from other residents of Smallville for instance, other than the regular stuff any weird kid would have received (which we see).

I dont think the point of the flash backs was to delve so deep into any of that... it was meant to be snippets not an entire fleshed out history of his childhood...come now. be realistic the movie is already 2hrs +

Oh I know that. The movie was too long as it is though, you could have cut the fight scenes in half and used that time more effectively. In any case, I was saying that I personally would have preferred a movie that deals more with Superman's relationship with humanity than what amounts to an spectacular alien boxing match for Earth. There's really no need to bring the Kryptonians in at all to make an interesting movie about Superman.

I did enjoy Toby Ziegler saving the day though.

Fans have been crying out for years to see a real superman slug fest...they finaly got it.
You want to rather see more back story and superman "angst" stuff...go rewatch your smallville dvd box set

QuickTidal, on 01 July 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

MTS, on 01 July 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Oh I know that. The movie was too long as it is though, you could have cut the fight scenes in half and used that time more effectively. In any case, I was saying that I personally would have preferred a movie that deals more with Superman's relationship with humanity than what amounts to an spectacular alien boxing match for Earth. There's really no need to bring the Kryptonians in at all to make an interesting movie about Superman.

I did enjoy Toby Ziegler saving the day though.

Nope, Superman fans want to see superman knocking shit about.

I find it really funny that when SUPERMAN RETURNS came out, fans said there was next to zero action, no superfighting...and they pissed on the movie for that (I was one of them)

And now people say there is TOO much fighting.

Like make up your melons. />

cant make everyone happy i spose....let the box office speak for itself i guess.
Even after all the negative critics have their say. Still should hit a respectable 700m i believe,

This post has been edited by dktorode: 01 July 2013 - 10:04 PM

[dktorode]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 01 July 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

I enjoyed it for what it was. Regarding plot points though

Spoiler

We see Zod as a genetically designated soldier who has spent his entire life mastering his senses thus allowing a convenient plot point to allow him to go toe to toe with Superman in the finale. No problem with that it had to happen or you have Superman just dodging around him.

However the film, whilst beating us over the head with the fact the kryptonian empire ran out of natural resources as a social commentary, states that all Kryptonian children are designated from birth and only brought into existence to serve a purpose. Zod as a general and a trained soldier. Jor-El is a lead scientist of his planet. If thats the case and these people are created with a purpose how did Jorel beat Zod in a fistfight? It seemed a really bizarre inclusion rather than have Zod simply kill his respected enemy while Jorel buys time for the ship or something. Why have him beat Zod and have Zod score a cheap blow thus lessening his calibre as a remorseless man of action. I get that they made Zod an almost sympathetic villain with a purpose but would it not be more impactive to have Zod be forced to kill his respected adversary as the ever present means to an end that was his entire purpose since birth.

Spoiler

Actually they didnt really beat you over the head with the fact that krypton ran out of resources.
What they DID beat you over the head with is partly the answer to your very question.
The fact that krypton started engineering themselves into different "casts" for specific jobs is what lead to their eventual downfall. It stopped them from being able to adapt to changing times...no more evolution...no more adaption. And they stopped spreading across the stars.

This was their greatest weakness as a society and it is what Jor-el came to realise too late. Hence the natural birth of Kal-el. And why he knew the kryptonians, as they where then as a society/race on krypton, was already "dead".
It was too late for them, not only because of the planet blowing up, but because their society was stunted as a progressive "system". They needed to start over. He wanted to do it with their DNA/codex and make them propagate again by natural selection via his son.
He even stated he had held the future of kryptonians in his hands to the one elder i believe (Kal-el being naturally born showing what he actually meant for them to become once again as a society).

Anyways im rambling. So it makes sense for Jor-el to decide that he doesnt only have to be a scientist, he doesnt have to stick to being s lab nerd...and there is nothing to stop him from learning how to kick ass too, he wanted his people to break free of their genetically created "molds" because he realised that if someone aspired to be something that he WANTS to be, the end result can potentially be much better than simply being born with the "correct" set of genes. "what if a child aspires to be something other than what was intended" (or something like that is the quote)

So if he decided he wanted to learn how to kick some ass...who is to say he couldnt do it better than Zod who was born to do it. He is a genius the likes krypton had not seen before. Learning to fight should be simples. Plus i dont think Zod expected him to open a can of whoop ass at the time, the guy was also fighting for the life of his son...and for the future of kryptonians too really!
Also...In the comics Jor-el has kicked ass before.

thats what i think anyways.

This post has been edited by dktorode: 01 July 2013 - 11:15 PM

[Dolmen 2.0]

I liked this movie.

Spoiler

Plus points. Storyline echoed alot of what made super man 1 so awesome all those many years ago. Jor el and Zod gave us the two faces of kryptonian society. It made things interesting because we take so much for granted about the politics and events that led to kryptonian Social decay and eventual destruction.

Minus points. I think Nolan and Snyder were heading in a good direction with a heavy kryptonian perspective on the ideal reality, choice versus purpose. They needed to humanize it far more though. Supermans battle vs the Zod elite was a calamity that had no real gravity in terms of human lives. Superman did not seem too bothered by it which seemed out of character. The destruction was free range and undermined by the scenematic cuts. Felt nothing about buildings tumbling on peoples heads.


maybe a little more story could have helped the feels but I thoroughly enjoyed watching superman go all out. The kryptonians were exactly how they needed to be, Gods amongst men. That I went through a kryptonian movie with absolutely no kryptonite was in my opinion a plus. You dont need it to threaten supermans world. The first movie does that excellently, he gave up his powers and had to go through emotional duress to regain them. Half expected it when he entered the krypton atmosphere. I think kryptonite flattens supermans character. This is not the best movie on this hero but it was a solid step up from the last. A reboot with a lot more to offer.

[D'rek]

I saw this yesterday and thought it was great. I had already heard some negative reviews before, and read more of them after, and I'm really not sure where all these critics are getting the opinion that this movie is "dark", "gritty" and "joyless" ? I thought superman looked like he was having a great time when he was learning to fly, and the sections with his mom or his biological parents on Krypton were often uplifting.

Spoiler

People seem to be complaining that the dilemma of whether he would kill or not was not setup... and I agree because I don't think that was the dilemma he was facing at all. The whole krypton backplot and then revealing-himself aspect was about choice and trust - having the ability to choose for himself making him different than kryptonians, choosing to surrender himself or not, choosing between his human and his kryptonian lives, eventually culminating in making the tough choice to kill the last other kryptonian to save humans. At that point he finally fully chose to be "human", followed by anguish at having to kill the last of his birthrace when he's only just started finding out who he was. That's how I chose to read it... maybe because I haven't seen any of the classic superman movies or read the comics so I don't have the no-killing part ingrained into me from them? In any case that way of seeing it has plenty of build-up and theme-alignment and all that stuff.

Dolmen+, on 02 July 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Spoiler

That I went through a kryptonian movie with absolutely no kryptonite was in my opinion a plus. You dont need it to threaten supermans world. The first movie does that excellently, he gave up his powers and had to go through emotional duress to regain them. Half expected it when he entered the krypton atmosphere. I think kryptonite flattens supermans character. This is not the best movie on this hero but it was a solid step up from the last. A reboot with a lot more to offer.

The way I see it, the Kryptonian atmosphere composition *is* the new "kryptonite". It never really made a whole lot of sense, AFAIK, that standing relatively close to some particular rocks somehow completely neutralized superman's powers, but if he stood a little further away from those rocks he was totally unaffected. As someone pointed out several posts ago, he can fly in space with no ill effects, it was only being in the Kryptonian atmosphere that handicapped him here, so I see it as their interpretation of kryptonite. And I thought it worked really well in that way.

[McLovin]

I think it's fair to say it's darkER than what we've seen before, but IMO it's not "dark". I like that Clark struggled with his powers and his identity. It made for a hell of a lot more interesting movie.

And I also liked the lack of Kryptonite. I bet it comes up in the sequel though, otherwise Lex Luthor or whoever is not gonna have much up his sleeve. We'll see.

[QuickTidal]

McLovin, on 03 July 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

I think it's fair to say it's darkER than what we've seen before, but IMO it's not "dark". I like that Clark struggled with his powers and his identity. It made for a hell of a lot more interesting movie.

Yeah, the tonal values are certainly darker than Richard Donner's very light, colourful and humorous fare...but we had that for 5 movies (including Singer's film in that), and I for one was glad to see this take...but yeah, I still found it uplifting ect.

McLovin, on 03 July 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

And I also liked the lack of Kryptonite. I bet it comes up in the sequel though, otherwise Lex Luthor or whoever is not gonna have much up his sleeve. We'll see.

Actually my guess on this (following his comic counterpart) is we will see both the Presidential win by Luthor (on the back of his likely corporate support of rebuilding Metropolis' infrastructure after all the destruction)...and as to his more power-driven endeavours, one of those Kryptonian suits the colonists (and eventually Zod's people as they searched the Terraforming planets) is probaly going to find its way into his possession...as it they looked a LOT like the Green Exo suit he eventually dons in the comics.....thus bringing him as a villain up to Supes level of power (or close).

[tiam]

dktorode, on 01 July 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 01 July 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

I enjoyed it for what it was. Regarding plot points though

Spoiler

We see Zod as a genetically designated soldier who has spent his entire life mastering his senses thus allowing a convenient plot point to allow him to go toe to toe with Superman in the finale. No problem with that it had to happen or you have Superman just dodging around him.

However the film, whilst beating us over the head with the fact the kryptonian empire ran out of natural resources as a social commentary, states that all Kryptonian children are designated from birth and only brought into existence to serve a purpose. Zod as a general and a trained soldier. Jor-El is a lead scientist of his planet. If thats the case and these people are created with a purpose how did Jorel beat Zod in a fistfight? It seemed a really bizarre inclusion rather than have Zod simply kill his respected enemy while Jorel buys time for the ship or something. Why have him beat Zod and have Zod score a cheap blow thus lessening his calibre as a remorseless man of action. I get that they made Zod an almost sympathetic villain with a purpose but would it not be more impactive to have Zod be forced to kill his respected adversary as the ever present means to an end that was his entire purpose since birth.

Spoiler

Actually they didnt really beat you over the head with the fact that krypton ran out of resources.
What they DID beat you over the head with is partly the answer to your very question.
The fact that krypton started engineering themselves into different "casts" for specific jobs is what lead to their eventual downfall. It stopped them from being able to adapt to changing times...no more evolution...no more adaption. And they stopped spreading across the stars.

This was their greatest weakness as a society and it is what Jor-el came to realise too late. Hence the natural birth of Kal-el. And why he knew the kryptonians, as they where then as a society/race on krypton, was already "dead".
It was too late for them, not only because of the planet blowing up, but because their society was stunted as a progressive "system". They needed to start over. He wanted to do it with their DNA/codex and make them propagate again by natural selection via his son.
He even stated he had held the future of kryptonians in his hands to the one elder i believe (Kal-el being naturally born showing what he actually meant for them to become once again as a society).

Anyways im rambling. So it makes sense for Jor-el to decide that he doesnt only have to be a scientist, he doesnt have to stick to being s lab nerd...and there is nothing to stop him from learning how to kick ass too, he wanted his people to break free of their genetically created "molds" because he realised that if someone aspired to be something that he WANTS to be, the end result can potentially be much better than simply being born with the "correct" set of genes. "what if a child aspires to be something other than what was intended" (or something like that is the quote)

So if he decided he wanted to learn how to kick some ass...who is to say he couldnt do it better than Zod who was born to do it. He is a genius the likes krypton had not seen before. Learning to fight should be simples. Plus i dont think Zod expected him to open a can of whoop ass at the time, the guy was also fighting for the life of his son...and for the future of kryptonians too really!
Also...In the comics Jor-el has kicked ass before.

thats what i think anyways.

Spoiler

Didnt they turn there entire system into the system of only being born for a purpose because they had no resources for a 'waste' person? The planet was only doomed because they had mined the core for energy because their resources were entirely spent. The council of elders had no choice they felt but to harness the core of the planet, however long term this caused the instability that doomed the planet. They probably didnt just come to the conclusion of everyone serving a purpose naturally it was probably an imposition to minimise essential personnel. Thus it wasnt political or cultural stagnation that doomed the planet but the more tangible concern of resource exhaustion pushed them into a situation they didnt have a long term grasp of thus dooming the planet.

Also Zod is shown to be a complete master of his senses, a born warrior as we see later in the movie thus allowing him to quickly acclimatize to earths atmospehere. Are you suggesting that Jorel took some self defence classes on the off chance hed have to go hand to hand with someone in an era of space exploration and rayguns?

[dktorode]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 03 July 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

dktorode, on 01 July 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 01 July 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

I enjoyed it for what it was. Regarding plot points though

Spoiler

We see Zod as a genetically designated soldier who has spent his entire life mastering his senses thus allowing a convenient plot point to allow him to go toe to toe with Superman in the finale. No problem with that it had to happen or you have Superman just dodging around him.

However the film, whilst beating us over the head with the fact the kryptonian empire ran out of natural resources as a social commentary, states that all Kryptonian children are designated from birth and only brought into existence to serve a purpose. Zod as a general and a trained soldier. Jor-El is a lead scientist of his planet. If thats the case and these people are created with a purpose how did Jorel beat Zod in a fistfight? It seemed a really bizarre inclusion rather than have Zod simply kill his respected enemy while Jorel buys time for the ship or something. Why have him beat Zod and have Zod score a cheap blow thus lessening his calibre as a remorseless man of action. I get that they made Zod an almost sympathetic villain with a purpose but would it not be more impactive to have Zod be forced to kill his respected adversary as the ever present means to an end that was his entire purpose since birth.

Spoiler

Actually they didnt really beat you over the head with the fact that krypton ran out of resources.
What they DID beat you over the head with is partly the answer to your very question.
The fact that krypton started engineering themselves into different "casts" for specific jobs is what lead to their eventual downfall. It stopped them from being able to adapt to changing times...no more evolution...no more adaption. And they stopped spreading across the stars.

This was their greatest weakness as a society and it is what Jor-el came to realise too late. Hence the natural birth of Kal-el. And why he knew the kryptonians, as they where then as a society/race on krypton, was already "dead".
It was too late for them, not only because of the planet blowing up, but because their society was stunted as a progressive "system". They needed to start over. He wanted to do it with their DNA/codex and make them propagate again by natural selection via his son.
He even stated he had held the future of kryptonians in his hands to the one elder i believe (Kal-el being naturally born showing what he actually meant for them to become once again as a society).

Anyways im rambling. So it makes sense for Jor-el to decide that he doesnt only have to be a scientist, he doesnt have to stick to being s lab nerd...and there is nothing to stop him from learning how to kick ass too, he wanted his people to break free of their genetically created "molds" because he realised that if someone aspired to be something that he WANTS to be, the end result can potentially be much better than simply being born with the "correct" set of genes. "what if a child aspires to be something other than what was intended" (or something like that is the quote)

So if he decided he wanted to learn how to kick some ass...who is to say he couldnt do it better than Zod who was born to do it. He is a genius the likes krypton had not seen before. Learning to fight should be simples. Plus i dont think Zod expected him to open a can of whoop ass at the time, the guy was also fighting for the life of his son...and for the future of kryptonians too really!
Also...In the comics Jor-el has kicked ass before.

thats what i think anyways.

Spoiler

Didnt they turn there entire system into the system of only being born for a purpose because they had no resources for a 'waste' person? The planet was only doomed because they had mined the core for energy because their resources were entirely spent. The council of elders had no choice they felt but to harness the core of the planet, however long term this caused the instability that doomed the planet. They probably didnt just come to the conclusion of everyone serving a purpose naturally it was probably an imposition to minimise essential personnel. Thus it wasnt political or cultural stagnation that doomed the planet but the more tangible concern of resource exhaustion pushed them into a situation they didnt have a long term grasp of thus dooming the planet.

Also Zod is shown to be a complete master of his senses, a born warrior as we see later in the movie thus allowing him to quickly acclimatize to earths atmospehere. Are you suggesting that Jorel took some self defence classes on the off chance hed have to go hand to hand with someone in an era of space exploration and rayguns?

Spoiler

I dont know if you are being purposefully obtuse because you just didnt like the movie or what...

But No, they didnt create the caste system because of resources...(its not stated that was the reason anyway).
However, they seemed to run out of resources because they where unwilling to continue their expansion to the stars.
This is partly (or fully?) due to the cast system putting a halt to their further evolution and resulting unwillingness for change.
They became stuck in their ways because of it...and stuck on their dying planet because of it.

And again...yes...Zod might be master of his senses, might be a great warrior (although he is a general, not their heavyweight champion) But Jor-el being a special kind of clever was able to break free of the mold and transcend his given "role" these tropes are through out the film. Im sure he realised this looong ago, and had been training as a warrior as well as being a scientist to break free of the cast system, not "in the off chance" he had to go hand to hand with anyone!!.
Although... he knew a fight was coming. Hence the shiny battle suit he built himself. (Unless you think all scientists get a nice battle suit as well as weakling genes in an era of "ray guns and space exploration" ?)

So yes...Jol-el "took some self defense classes" as you say and proceded to kick Zod's ass... />

Let me dumb it down for you. Imagine warrior cast as a boxer...and boxing is the only way to fight on this planet. Zod might be the best boxer, bred to be a perfect boxer etc etc.
Along comes... a scientist...doesn't have all the best physical tools to be a boxer but decides to take up boxing anyway, gets quite good at it.
But realizes that you dont only have to use your arms to fight and creates something like Mixed Martial arts...see... evolution.
He was clever enough to transcend what was considered the norm to be a warrior.. AND a scientist.
Wouldnt it be possible for this weaker MMA guy to beat up a stronger boxer? (if his child's life was on the line?)..hell yes!

Now im not saying Jor-el fucking created a better fighting technique here (although seems likely since he whipped Zod ),
Im more saying that jor-el became separated from being your normal "genetically modified" being.
He broke away from that mold and became limitless while Zod..obviously was limited and stuck to his way of thinking.

Its so obvious..how else would this "scientist" be such a good fighter without training himself?...and have a battle suit on hand?...especially with all the talk of "being other than what was intended" getting thrown in your face every five minutes. (bad writing?..no)
THE ENTIRE POIINT of the fight resulting in Zod losing was to show that their ways where not as perfect as they all thought..

Or... you can be obtuse and simply blame it on bad writing if you wish to carry on being condescending and what not....meh

This post has been edited by dktorode: 04 July 2013 - 09:17 AM

[tiam]

dktorode, on 04 July 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 03 July 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

dktorode, on 01 July 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 01 July 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

I enjoyed it for what it was. Regarding plot points though

Spoiler

We see Zod as a genetically designated soldier who has spent his entire life mastering his senses thus allowing a convenient plot point to allow him to go toe to toe with Superman in the finale. No problem with that it had to happen or you have Superman just dodging around him.

However the film, whilst beating us over the head with the fact the kryptonian empire ran out of natural resources as a social commentary, states that all Kryptonian children are designated from birth and only brought into existence to serve a purpose. Zod as a general and a trained soldier. Jor-El is a lead scientist of his planet. If thats the case and these people are created with a purpose how did Jorel beat Zod in a fistfight? It seemed a really bizarre inclusion rather than have Zod simply kill his respected enemy while Jorel buys time for the ship or something. Why have him beat Zod and have Zod score a cheap blow thus lessening his calibre as a remorseless man of action. I get that they made Zod an almost sympathetic villain with a purpose but would it not be more impactive to have Zod be forced to kill his respected adversary as the ever present means to an end that was his entire purpose since birth.

Spoiler

Actually they didnt really beat you over the head with the fact that krypton ran out of resources.
What they DID beat you over the head with is partly the answer to your very question.
The fact that krypton started engineering themselves into different "casts" for specific jobs is what lead to their eventual downfall. It stopped them from being able to adapt to changing times...no more evolution...no more adaption. And they stopped spreading across the stars.

This was their greatest weakness as a society and it is what Jor-el came to realise too late. Hence the natural birth of Kal-el. And why he knew the kryptonians, as they where then as a society/race on krypton, was already "dead".
It was too late for them, not only because of the planet blowing up, but because their society was stunted as a progressive "system". They needed to start over. He wanted to do it with their DNA/codex and make them propagate again by natural selection via his son.
He even stated he had held the future of kryptonians in his hands to the one elder i believe (Kal-el being naturally born showing what he actually meant for them to become once again as a society).

Anyways im rambling. So it makes sense for Jor-el to decide that he doesnt only have to be a scientist, he doesnt have to stick to being s lab nerd...and there is nothing to stop him from learning how to kick ass too, he wanted his people to break free of their genetically created "molds" because he realised that if someone aspired to be something that he WANTS to be, the end result can potentially be much better than simply being born with the "correct" set of genes. "what if a child aspires to be something other than what was intended" (or something like that is the quote)

So if he decided he wanted to learn how to kick some ass...who is to say he couldnt do it better than Zod who was born to do it. He is a genius the likes krypton had not seen before. Learning to fight should be simples. Plus i dont think Zod expected him to open a can of whoop ass at the time, the guy was also fighting for the life of his son...and for the future of kryptonians too really!
Also...In the comics Jor-el has kicked ass before.

thats what i think anyways.

Spoiler

Didnt they turn there entire system into the system of only being born for a purpose because they had no resources for a 'waste' person? The planet was only doomed because they had mined the core for energy because their resources were entirely spent. The council of elders had no choice they felt but to harness the core of the planet, however long term this caused the instability that doomed the planet. They probably didnt just come to the conclusion of everyone serving a purpose naturally it was probably an imposition to minimise essential personnel. Thus it wasnt political or cultural stagnation that doomed the planet but the more tangible concern of resource exhaustion pushed them into a situation they didnt have a long term grasp of thus dooming the planet.

Also Zod is shown to be a complete master of his senses, a born warrior as we see later in the movie thus allowing him to quickly acclimatize to earths atmospehere. Are you suggesting that Jorel took some self defence classes on the off chance hed have to go hand to hand with someone in an era of space exploration and rayguns?

Spoiler

I dont know if you are being purposefully obtuse because you just didnt like the movie or what...

But No, they didnt create the caste system because of resources...(its not stated that was the reason anyway).
However, they seemed to run out of resources because they where unwilling to continue their expansion to the stars.
This is partly (or fully?) due to the cast system putting a halt to their further evolution and resulting unwillingness for change.
They became stuck in their ways because of it...and stuck on their dying planet because of it.

And again...yes...Zod might be master of his senses, might be a great warrior (although he is a general, not their heavyweight champion) But Jor-el being a special kind of clever was able to break free of the mold and transcend his given "role" these tropes are through out the film. Im sure he realised this looong ago, and had been training as a warrior as well as being a scientist to break free of the cast system, not "in the off chance" he had to go hand to hand with anyone!!.
Although... he knew a fight was coming. Hence the shiny battle suit he built himself. (Unless you think all scientists get a nice battle suit as well as weakling genes in an era of "ray guns and space exploration" ?)

So yes...Jol-el "took some self defense classes" as you say and proceded to kick Zod's ass... />

Let me dumb it down for you. Imagine warrior cast as a boxer...and boxing is the only way to fight on this planet. Zod might be the best boxer, bred to be a perfect boxer etc etc.
Along comes... a scientist...doesn't have all the best physical tools to be a boxer but decides to take up boxing anyway, gets quite good at it.
But realizes that you dont only have to use your arms to fight and creates something like Mixed Martial arts...see... evolution.
He was clever enough to transcend what was considered the norm to be a warrior.. AND a scientist.
Wouldnt it be possible for this weaker MMA guy to beat up a stronger boxer? (if his child's life was on the line?)..hell yes!

Now im not saying Jor-el fucking created a better fighting technique here (although seems likely since he whipped Zod ),
Im more saying that jor-el became separated from being your normal "genetically modified" being.
He broke away from that mold and became limitless while Zod..obviously was limited and stuck to his way of thinking.

Its so obvious..how else would this "scientist" be such a good fighter without training himself?...and have a battle suit on hand?...especially with all the talk of "being other than what was intended" getting thrown in your face every five minutes. (bad writing?..no)
THE ENTIRE POIINT of the fight resulting in Zod losing was to show that their ways where not as perfect as they all thought..

Or... you can be obtuse and simply blame it on bad writing if you wish to carry on being condescending and what not....meh

Spoiler

A few things

-I apologise for coming off as condescending that wasnt my intention and I think youve taken offence.

The caste system- Youve provided no reason for them to introduce a specific casting system only allowing children to be born to serve a purpose they would be engineered for. I actually thought it was stated it was resource exhaustion though I could be wrong. The chief elder is chastised by Jorel for harnessing the core however he claimed that they had 'no choice as their energy reserves were depleted. If, as you say, its not outright stated does it not make sense that they expanded into all suitable planets flourished then slowly ran out of natural resources. When they recognised this they introduced a caste system to only allow specific personnel to be born so they fulfill a purpose rather than the unregulated population increase they had done before. (Again im sure this is stated by Russel Crowe)

Jorel beating Zod- I understand the film was all about overcoming your born station and such but really I think Jorel beating Zod had to do with Russel Crowe being cast. I cannot see the motivation for Jorel learning how to fight in the years preceding the film. He has clearly frantically trying to find a scientific method of saving his planet why would he take up a martial art? I honestly cannot see 'him breaking free of the mold' as a valid reason for him learning how to fight. Why not learn a musical instrument or literally anything else? You say that 'im sure Jorel realised long ago' the importance of learning how to fight hand to hand but why would he? As you mention your a fan of the comics and I think your a jorel fanboy for lack of a better expression.

You seem to think a warrior caste in the era of space exploration focuses primarily on hand to hand combat or that that would even be a focus. Your utterly irrelevant condescending boxer-mma fighter comparison is baffling. As you say he prepared for the fight giving him armour that simply put him on a level playing field as the already armoured Zod. But he is a product of the system. You saying 'yeh but is teh awesomz in the comic and he likely came up with his own martial art because jorel is epicz' (I might be paraphrasing here />/> ) makes no mention that he is genetically engineered to being a scientist.

You also claiming 'its so obvious' that this off screen, completely unmentioned, out of character, obsolete form of training took place when he should have been doing his job as chief scientist finding a way to save his planet is about as valid as your insight into boxing and mma.

At no point did I say the writing was bad in my original point simply an interesting plot point worth talking about in a thread dedicated to it . Also the whole ' be something more' is clearly aimed at Clark as he could have become Zod ie ruler of earth. Clark has the chance to be something more because he is not a product of the system.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 05 July 2013 - 07:12 PM

[Illuyankas]

Solar power is a thing, Kryton dudes!

[McLovin]

If I may...

Spoiler

Jor-El doesn't work frantically to save the planet, because he knows it's too late. All that is left is to try to save the Codex, in hopes of creating a new Kryptonian civilization somewhere else. He and Zod are the only two who realize this. The problem is Jor-El wants to reboot Kryptonian society, and allow chance and creativity back into the mix. Zod will simply re-create the stagnant, pre-programmed culture that led to the disaster in the first place.

This difference in worldview gives Jor-El the upper hand. IMO, Zod simply assumed Jor-El would submit to his will once he effected his coup. Becasue that's what you do on Krypton: follow the leader. He doesn't expect Jor-El to escape amid the chaos and steal the Codex.

And yeah, probably Jor-El had been preparing for the moment ever since he realized Krypton was doomed. And though he's not a warrior, he's brilliant - he knows he can't beat Zod, but he can stall Zod just long enough to get the Codex and Kal away.

All this discussion makes me wanna go see it again. Make it so!

[dktorode]

Seriously...dude
Are you just trolling now?

Spoiler

Quote

A few things

-I apologise for coming off as condescending that wasnt my intention and I think youve taken offence.

Correct...i have taken offense. You made it out as if i said Jor-el simply went to a few self defense classes "in case" and is now carrying a shiny new rape whistle.

Quote

The caste system- Youve provided no reason for them to introduce a specific casting system only allowing children to be born to serve a purpose they would be engineered for. I actually thought it was stated it was resource exhaustion though I could be wrong. The chief elder is chastised by Jorel for harnessing the core however he claimed that they had 'no choice as their energy reserves were depleted. If, as you say, its not outright stated does it not make sense that they expanded into all suitable planets flourished then slowly ran out of natural resources. When they recognised this they introduced a caste system to only allow specific personnel to be born so they fulfill a purpose rather than the unregulated population increase they had done before. (Again im sure this is stated by Russel Crowe)

It's never stated why they introduced the caste system specifically, But Jor-El's "shade" tells Clark that "long ago in an era of expansion their race sent ships out to settle planets and expand their civilisation and for 100 000 years they flourished", when Clark asked "what happened?" Jor-el answers that artificial population control was established (so that is specifically what he thinks was the main problem), He goes on to say that the outposts where abandoned and that they exhausted their natural resources on krypton and as a result the core became unstable etc. etc.

He then states... that he and lara believed that artificial birth/caste system caused kryptoninas to "lose something precious, the element of chance and of choice" or something like that... Carries on with the line "what if a child was born and decided to become something other than society had intended for him...etc etc.

So yea its all there...pay more attention old chap!!


The point is that the caste system or artificial control turned out to be a bad thing for kryptonians in the end. Jor-el realized this, hence natural birth for the first time in centuries.
As well as him not only limiting himself to be just what his caste labelled him to be.
He became a worrior, a leader etc. on top of being a scientist why would he believe something so strongly that he would break laws to change it and not fully commit himself to his own beliefs?. He obviously didnt want to just be what he was born to be just like he ensured his son wouldn't be genetically pre-disposed by having him born naturally.

Anyways...yea.. they stopped spreading because of the caste system to a degree...and because they then ran out of resources on home planet which was inevitable...yet they failed to see it because they where stuck in their ways. This is why he didnt go with Clark to earth..because they where a "product of the failures of their world and tied to its fate"

Quote

Jorel beating Zod- I understand the film was all about overcoming your born station and such but really I think Jorel beating Zod had to do with Russel Crowe being cast. I cannot see the motivation for Jorel learning how to fight in the years preceding the film. He has clearly frantically trying to find a scientific method of saving his planet why would he take up a martial art? I honestly cannot see 'him breaking free of the mold' as a valid reason for him learning how to fight. Why not learn a musical instrument or literally anything else? You say that 'im sure Jorel realised long ago' the importance of learning how to fight hand to hand but why would he? As you mention your a fan of the comics and I think your a jorel fanboy for lack of a better expression.

Erm...jor-el fanboy?..seriously?

With a clear theme of the movie being about becoming more than you are born to be, would it not make perfect sense for Jor-El the only person who seems to understand the fact that caste system is essentially a fuckup, would then take to learn all the other "caste roles" himself aswell to transcend this very thing he sites as the problem? He is a scientist who believes he doesnt only have to be a scientist...it would make perfect sense for him to try and become "complete" by learing all the kryptonioan roles if you ask me.

Quote

You seem to think a warrior caste in the era of space exploration focuses primarily on hand to hand combat or that that would even be a focus. Your utterly irrelevant condescending boxer-mma fighter comparison is baffling.

My MMA analogy was a fucking METAPHOR...for fuck sakes.
I even said that i was not being literal and that i am not claiming he literally created a better freaking fighting style ....jaaysus christ!
My analogy or (MMA metaphor) was meant to illustrate the fact that kryptonians where stuck in an archaic "boxing" frame set and couldnt evolve into a more complete "MMA" frame set because of artificial breeding whereas Jor-el was clever enough to transend that and...eh...just forget it.

Quote

As you say he prepared for the fight giving him armour that simply put him on a level playing field as the already armoured Zod. But he is a product of the system. You saying 'yeh but is teh awesomz in the comic and he likely came up with his own martial art because jorel is epicz' (I might be paraphrasing here />/> ) makes no mention that he is genetically engineered to being a scientist.

So i said? "yeh but is awesomz" did i?..i used those exact words then?
And here you go right to being a douche again...after just apologizing..what a shame.
Is this how you win your arguments in your kindergarten class? Me? I just used to draw naughty pictures on the walls and sign them with my "enemy's" name...heh..each to their own i guess.

The reason i mentioned the suit was to illustrate Jor-el obviously had the foresight that he would have to fight at some point...otherwise why would he have armor on hand. I never said the armor was what made him beat Zod.

Its just another clue that he has had warrior training...Since you seemed to think he didnt train because it's a silly idea and he would rather take up the fucking harp. Or was it only because it was Russel Crow who was cast that made Goyer rewrite the freaking script so that he could magically kick Zods ass (with his rape whistle in tow) for no apparent reason what so ever other than because they didnt want to make Snyder tell Russel Freaking Crow that he would lose a fight in the movie....yea...seems legit. Poor Snyder.

Oh...and Jor-El does mention that he designed the phantom drive engines...so yea..he was a scientist...or do you think he was actually a soldier that decided to dabble with phantom zone engines?....would be kinda counter intuitive to your argument that he didnt bother becoming more than intended himself?

Quote

You also claiming 'its so obvious' that this off screen, completely unmentioned, out of character, obsolete form of training took place when he should have been doing his job as chief scientist finding a way to save his planet is about as valid as your insight into boxing and mma.

It was fairly obvious to me. You?..perhaps not that much i suppose
Ok...fine... he didnt train to fight at all...he just "winged it" when the time came to face zod... and wouldn't you know he just happened to have a armor suit laying around his apartment... and wow...he whipped Zod by mistake...or was it because i am a fan boy and he is deh awesomez!!...not sure which. probably both. (my turn to be a douche, dont fret over it)

Quote

At no point did I say the writing was bad in my original point simply an interesting plot point worth talking about in a thread dedicated to it . Also the whole ' be something more' is clearly aimed at Clark as he could have become Zod ie ruler of earth. Clark has the chance to be something more because he is not a product of the system.

You infer that the writing is bad because you cant seem to connect the dots.
And with regards to Jor-el's advice being directed at Klark...So you are saying that Jor-el is not a very "practice what you preach" kinda guy then? looks full of hot air to you does he then?... hey old chap?

...fair enough.

To me...seems like all the clues are pointing to the very opposite.

this is fun

This post has been edited by dktorode: 06 July 2013 - 05:02 PM

[tiam]

McLovin, on 05 July 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

If I may...

Spoiler

Jor-El doesn't work frantically to save the planet, because he knows it's too late. All that is left is to try to save the Codex, in hopes of creating a new Kryptonian civilization somewhere else. He and Zod are the only two who realize this. The problem is Jor-El wants to reboot Kryptonian society, and allow chance and creativity back into the mix. Zod will simply re-create the stagnant, pre-programmed culture that led to the disaster in the first place.

This difference in worldview gives Jor-El the upper hand. IMO, Zod simply assumed Jor-El would submit to his will once he effected his coup. Becasue that's what you do on Krypton: follow the leader. He doesn't expect Jor-El to escape amid the chaos and steal the Codex.

And yeah, probably Jor-El had been preparing for the moment ever since he realized Krypton was doomed. And though he's not a warrior, he's brilliant - he knows he can't beat Zod, but he can stall Zod just long enough to get the Codex and Kal away.

All this discussion makes me wanna go see it again. Make it so!

Spoiler

My original point was simply that it seemed odd that Jorel beat Zod as a purely filmic point. As you say hes not a warrior and he knew he couldnt beat Zod but he lasted just long enough to allow Jorel to escape. Except he didnt and he actually beat him and Zod only beat him with ultimate baddie cheap shot /> of a knife flicking out of his armour and stabbing him when he wasnt looking. Thats what I was getting at above. I just thought from a film POV it seemed odd not to have Jorel give a good go but have Zod beat him after hed bought enough time rather than have Jorel beat Zod then turn his back to the films main villain and get stabbed in the back.

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 07 July 2013 - 08:27 AM

[McLovin]

I saw it again.

Could this beat AVENGERS as my favorite superhero movie?

[QuickTidal]

I don't want to use the "And your Batman is" thread, so lets do this here and make this thread the same one for the Sequel (MAN OF STEEL 2, BATMAN VS SUPERMAN, WORLDS FINEST or whatever they end up calling it)

News today...Gal Gadot has been cast as Wonder Woman in the film! Eagle eyed folk may know her from FAST 5 and 6 as Han's love interest.

She's a great choice, as she's young, rather unknown still, and though she's really skinny now...she can bulk up and is used to training as she trained with the Israeli army earlier in life.

 Gal+Gadot+15.jpg (59.83K)
Number of downloads: 0

[stone monkey]

I do wonder (see what I did there?) how well her origin will fit in with the style of the Cinematic DC Universe - it is very much a technological, not magical, place. If they've got any sense they should go the Clarke's 3rd Law route that the Marvel Cinematic Universe took with the Asgardians. Maybe Themscyra is in a pocket dimension that was created by Ancient Astronauts masquerading as the Greek Gods.

My thinking would be to have her as a fairly fleshed out background character who pops in and out of the main plot, out of costume and doing her own thing, until the final battle where she shows up in her armour and packing her sword: "My name's Diana." - kicks serious ass - lead into her her own film.

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 04 December 2013 - 08:20 PM

[QuickTidal]

stone monkey, on 04 December 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

I do wonder (see what I did there?) how well her origin will fit in with the style of the Cinematic DC Universe - it is very much a technological, not magical, place. If they've got any sense they should go the Clarke's 3rd Law route that the Marvel Cinematic Universe took with the Asgardians. Maybe Themscyra is in a pocket dimension that was created by Ancient Astronauts masquerading as the Greek Gods.

My thinking would be to have her as a fairly fleshed out background character who pops in and out of the main plot, out of costume and doing her own thing, until the final battle where she shows up in her armour and packing her sword: "My name's Diana." - kicks serious ass - lead into her her own film.

Hmmmm. I disagree on her entrance. I think she needs to be DC's version of Thor (agree on the Asgard / Themscyra comparison statement). She needs to show up in costume and everyone is like WTF is this Greek/Roman warrior dressed woman doing here kicking ass and taking names? no out of costume moments...because that would require her to have been here long enough to establish the Diana Prince thing...I'd rather she be fish out of water, using an out of use dialect. Just my two cents.

And I have a feeling that instead of copying Marvels multi-film Phase route to AVENGERS....that the MAN OF STEEL films are secretly going to be a mainline push to JUSTICE LEAGUE (MoS 3 maybe?)...what with the entire Trinity showing up on BATMAN VS SUPERMAN, seems like the next logical step...now we just need Idris Elba to be cast as GREEN LANTERN (Oh please let them cast Idris....he's just be SO good in the role!) and we'll be good to go.

Oh and while we are dream casting...Who's FLASH? (please don't say the kid they cast as the character on ARROW)

[stone monkey]

QuickTidal, on 04 December 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Hmmmm. I disagree on her entrance. I think she needs to be DC's version of Thor (agree on the Asgard / Themscyra comparison statement). She needs to show up in costume and everyone is like WTF is this Greek/Roman warrior dressed woman doing here kicking ass and taking names? no out of costume moments...because that would require her to have been here long enough to establish the Diana Prince thing...I'd rather she be fish out of water, using an out of use dialect. Just my two cents.

Strangely enough, I disagree (possibly because I'm disagreeable), the Diana Prince hidden identity thing is actually perfect, to my mind. Use Diana Prince as her Secret Agent persona, that she's using to learn about Man's World before she decides to reveal herself. Which she then does in her full-on War Costume (not the traditional WW costume, as that's a bit too camp and has far too much of an association with the Linda Carter era imo) and proceeds to the epic ass-kicking and taking of names.

Another thought from my dubiously fertile brain is to actually try and make her a feminist icon, rather than simply a male fantasy object. Attempt to bring WWs ideals into the 21st century. Anyone who's read Astro City will remember how it handled its WW analogue, Winged Victory. She had a Charitable Foundation that ran Domestic Violence Shelters, and she used her celebrity to campaign on feminist issues. Diana's cover could be doing that; it could be what she believes is her most important mission in Man's World, with the kicking of seven bells out of various super-powered menaces as her less important sideline. It could also be how she encounters Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent, and measures them up as people. Admittedly, turning (or returning) WW into a feminist campaigner is not going to fly at all in the US market, as feminism appears to be a dirty word there. It would imo be a very interesting and admirable direction to take with her. Simply making her fish out of water is just... seen it all before and, to my mind, a bit of a cop out. This way she'd have real relevance and dignity.

But well, I guess all of the above may be why they shouldn't let me make films.

This post has been edited by stone monkey: 04 December 2013 - 09:04 PM

[QuickTidal]

I'm curious how a "Stone Monkey Production" film would be received. I'd imagine Critics would be split between genius and madness. And equal amount of applause and boo's at Cannes.

Perfect.