[Roldom]

theres only 5 hounds of shadow, ST says that 7 is the desired number, and then 2 hounds of light turn up making it seven again but im not gonna get into the hounds of light thing

my question is, what about the hound garath, lady envys companion from MoI, i dont remember him being mentioned at all in TtH,

in MoI Toc the younger says that he could be a hound of shadow, and envy says he could but hes reluctant,
so apart from the fact that garath would be a terrible name for a HoS, why wouldnt ST go recruit him?

and if theres one almost HoS out there, couldnt there be more? there were more than seven hounds of light after all...

[TheSurvivor]

It's been a while since I read MoI so I don't remember that exchange but I'll talk on it. I think at the time I believed Toc's words were simply describing how large and scary looking Garath was but I guess I overlooked Lady Envy's reply. In which case I do not think ST can just go out and recruit a HoS, I'm pretty sure the House does the picking and it seems Garath is refusing the role. This isn't conclusive because we've seen many others deny their role to no avail. Perhaps it's different with the Hounds...Even if ST could recruit I don't think he would go for Garath for two reasons; first being he's with Lady Envy and the second is would not be very cooperative given his reluctance. As far as other potentials out there I suppose logically there could be more but I'm sure they're extremly rare to find and so ST locating them would be difficult. I'm not sure though, I'm not the best analysis on these forums.

[Aptorian]

The HoS are strange. They seem to have a duality in the nature of their origin and their role. One source states that they are created. Another that they breed. Do they breed? And if so, is it a biological thing like you'd expect or do they simple form another one? The ones we know as a pack are blood related, in that there is a father and mother and offspring.

I think it might be that the "Hounds of Shadow" are a position and a title in the House of Shadow. The Animals themselves are more than just that.

[worry]

I think Aptorian has it right. In GotM, there's mention that Baran (I think) has had a previous mate who is no longer among the seven. There is some sort of arcane-biological breeding for at least some of them. And I think TheSurvivor is correct in saying that Shadow itself would select for new Hounds, anyway, and not ST. Either way, I don't think Garath would be forced into the position.

[Wampyry]

I agree with Apt. The Hounds in GOTM were a pack, at least those whose heritage was shown. Rake killed two Hounds: Ganrod and Doan. Doan was the
firstborn of Rood and its first mate Pallick. To the best of my knowledge Pallick was not active in any of the books so the Hounds occassionally
die off. Don't think they can leave by their own accord. But they are replaced as needed. In TTH two new Hounds are introduced: Lock and Pallid.

Somebody or something knew that they would be needed to protect Dragnipur from rivals. Could be Shadow House or KE itself. My two bucks goes on Erikson

[Sinisdar Toste]

well pallid and lock were hounds of light all along, not of shadow. they were spies, sent by whoever is the master of the HoL, so i don't think they were part of the 'protect dragnipur' camp, more like, 'claim dragnipur'

[Hetan]

IIRC Trull and Onrack speculate that the Hounds of Darkness and Shadow co-exist - without one there cannot be the other.
The two hounds of shadow who were killed by Rake, joined up with their counterparts inside the statues in the Nascent after being freed from Dragnipur by Paran. When next we see them they are no longer Hounds of Shadow, but are the Deragoth.

When Karsa finally killed the two Deragoth in HoC - that was it - they were dead, and now there are only 5 HoS and 5 Deragoth.

Regarding the Hounds of Light -

Quote

Cotillion - The Deragoth are the dark, and in their savage solidity would claim ownership of the shadows they cast. Lock and Pallid, however, are the light that gave the Deragoth shape, without whom neither the Deragoth nor the Hounds of Shadows would exist. (TtH)

which still doesn't take account of why there are Twelve Hounds of Light

Regarding recruiting new HoS - I don't think Shadowthrone has that much power - He is not master of Kurald Emurlahn after all..

Quote

The Hounds of Shadow are not worthy of worship. They are indeed untethered, wild and deadly. To truly command them, one must sit in the Throne of Shadow – as master of the realm. But more than that. One must first draw together the disparate fragments. Making Kurald Emurlahn whole once more.’

[Dodger]

 I would love a hound of shadow    there so cool ......   

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[Abyss]

Shorn tells someone that he created the HoS back in pre-shattered KE, tho as always that's up for debate.

That also seems to contradict the notion that the HoS somehow carry the souls of the last Deragoth, since the Deragoth are from the world and not any elder Warren, it seems. maybe. We could explain all that by linking shadow to Dessimbelackis' shapeshifter ritual involving the Deragoth - maybe Dessi' used the 7 HoS to link his soul with the last 7 Deragoth.

And then there's the issue of more than 7 HoL. Given Pallick and Garath we could speculate that there were once more HoS but pre GotM five died and were never replaced. Light being reclusive, the HoL were never exposed and vulnerable.


Pallid and Locke just showing up is supposedly a balance, which ST and Cots are supposed to just accept tho it's clear they never did and had the HoS ready to turn on the two HoL at the right time.


- Abyss, doggedly working at this...

[Wampyry]

Sinisdar Toste, on 27 September 2010 - 04:33 AM, said:

well pallid and lock were hounds of light all along, not of shadow. they were spies, sent by whoever is the master of the HoL, so i don't think they were part of the 'protect dragnipur' camp, more like, 'claim dragnipur'

Oops, although I didn't like TTH I read it - twice. Didn't remember that Lock and Pallid were spies for Light. Dramatis Personae states they are both HOS.
Thought that was enough info for my post. Wiki has them both as HOL.
Right back where I started: how do the Hound of Shadow populate besides screwing?

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 28 September 2010 - 02:37 PM

[Abyss]

Wampyry, on 28 September 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

...Didn't remember that Lock and Pallid were spies for Light. Dramatis Personae states they are both HOS.
Thought that was enough info for my post. Wiki has them both as HOL.

"There are no Hounds of Light." - Steven Erikson, circa 2004.

[Wampyry]

Abyss, on 28 September 2010 - 02:42 PM, said:

Wampyry, on 28 September 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

...Didn't remember that Lock and Pallid were spies for Light. Dramatis Personae states they are both HOS.
Thought that was enough info for my post. Wiki has them both as HOL.

"There are no Hounds of Light." - Steven Erikson, circa 2004.

Whew! What a relief. Thanks, Abyss. Thought I made a misteak,

[Sinisdar Toste]

mmmmmm, mi-steak *garblhgharblarghb*

[Abyss]

Wampyry, on 28 September 2010 - 04:49 PM, said:

Abyss, on 28 September 2010 - 02:42 PM, said:

Wampyry, on 28 September 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

...Didn't remember that Lock and Pallid were spies for Light. Dramatis Personae states they are both HOS.
Thought that was enough info for my post. Wiki has them both as HOL.

"There are no Hounds of Light." - Steven Erikson, circa 2004.

Whew! What a relief. Thanks, Abyss. Thought I made a misteak,

You did, but not the mistake you think you didn't make.

I was being facetious. The point is that the personae list, and for that matter the author, can and will mislead the reader.

[Wampyry]

Abyss, on 28 September 2010 - 05:12 PM, said:

Wampyry, on 28 September 2010 - 04:49 PM, said:

Abyss, on 28 September 2010 - 02:42 PM, said:

Wampyry, on 28 September 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

...Didn't remember that Lock and Pallid were spies for Light. Dramatis Personae states they are both HOS.
Thought that was enough info for my post. Wiki has them both as HOL.

"There are no Hounds of Light." - Steven Erikson, circa 2004.

Whew! What a relief. Thanks, Abyss. Thought I made a misteak,

You did, but not the mistake you think you didn't make.

I was being facetious. The point is that the personae list, and for that matter the author, can and will mislead the reader.

Damn, Abyss, I didn't think you were being facetious; I thought you were joking that's why I deliberately misspelled mistake. My return joke!
At least we are in agreement on one point - Erikson can be devious

[Siergiej]

I think it's not like Shadowthrone has 100% control over Hounds of Shadow. He can't do anything about two Hounds of Light joining their ranks, and there was a moment in TtH when ST and Cotillion first meet with Traveler. They have pants full of shit, because they know, that if Dassem decides to kill them, Hounds won't protect their "masters". And if I remember well, someone (Tulas probably, or maybe Draconus) implied that every elemental power (ie. Shadow, Darkness, Light, Death, Life) has its Hounds. Makes me wonder... why we didn't see any?

[Mcflury]

Siergiej, on 01 October 2010 - 12:42 PM, said:

I think it's not like Shadowthrone has 100% control over Hounds of Shadow. He can't do anything about two Hounds of Light joining their ranks, and there was a moment in TtH when ST and Cotillion first meet with Traveler. They have pants full of shit, because they know, that if Dassem decides to kill them, Hounds won't protect their "masters". And if I remember well, someone (Tulas probably, or maybe Draconus) implied that every elemental power (ie. Shadow, Darkness, Light, Death, Life) has its Hounds. Makes me wonder... why we didn't see any?

We saw the Hounds of Dark, which were the Deragoth if I'm not mistaken. You know, the little doggies killed by Karsa (or at least some of them).

[Siergiej]

Yeah, yeah, I know about the Hounds of Darkness, Shadow and Light, but I menat Hounds of other elemental powers - eg. Life, or Death.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

The way I read Shorn explanation it's that the Hounds are the wild personification of a Warren/Realm and that they appear when for a long time there is no master of that Realm and thus no Order.

[Mcflury]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 02 October 2010 - 04:10 PM, said:

The way I read Shorn explanation it's that the Hounds are the wild personification of a Warren/Realm and that they appear when for a long time there is no master of that Realm and thus no Order.

That would make sense for Darkness with Mother Dark being turned away for so long already, Light with Father Light being absent for such a long time. And for Shadow... well... they've had plenty of rulers I guess, but I could be wrong. Or perhaps so many rlers that it was too chaotic and the dogs were formed.