[waylander001]

I like it - intelligent and interesting people debating I cant ignore. I have to agree with Spiridon's view - the time spent blathering endlessly (and there is endless blather) on the Tor site he really could have spent reading the series more so that ones point of view or concerns have more weight.

I like most of the content and discussion back and forth on the Tor site - but when someone's answers and views start interfering with others enjoyment on there then it gets a bit annoying. Especially when that person is making lazy assumptions and causing arguments that dont need to happen. Right or wrong - people have gotten upset with Abalieno and his responses and whereas most people can choose just to ignore him - some simply cant, and it takes away from their enjoyment, focusing on crap which doesnt need to be focused on.

This post has been edited by waylander001: 31 December 2010 - 03:56 PM

[Abalieno]

amphibian, on 31 December 2010 - 03:45 PM, said:

You interpret his discourse to be chaotic.

I never said that what Pust puts into words is "chaotic". The difference is in the fact I interpret him as "unaware" of the distinction between what he wants to say and says, and what he just thinks and says without realizing.

You say that even this second part is deliberate, and I say that in DG there's no hint that this habit of him is also used as manipulation.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

We must be reading a different book, then. Because to me it was fairly obvious that whatever Pust told Mappo, Icarium, Apsalar and the rest he told it to manipulate them .

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 31 December 2010 - 04:09 PM

[amphibian]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 31 December 2010 - 04:09 PM, said:

We must be reading a different book, then. Because to me it was fairly obvious that whatever Pust told Mappo, Icarium, Apsalar and the rest he told it to manipulate them .

Exactly. Every word that came out of his mouth in DG was considered. In later books, this breaks down slightly, as Erikson amps up Pust's humorous aspects, but the point still stands on the whole. Every single word in DG was considered and spoken knowingly.

Even that damn steps puzzle.

[amphibian]

Abalieno, on 31 December 2010 - 04:02 PM, said:

I never said that what Pust puts into words is "chaotic". The difference is in the fact I interpret him as "unaware" of the distinction between what he wants to say and says, and what he just thinks and says without realizing.

In DG, there is zero distinction between what Pust wants to say/says and what he thinks/says. None at all. It all serves the purpose.

[Spiridon_Deannis]

And just this itsy-bitsy discussion about one aspect of this cycle - Pust - illustrates a very important point re MBotF:

This specific cycle with this specific author makes it paramount that you (1) read the material as far as available, because as a matter of rule, SE throws events and behaviors at you, THEN starts to explain them afterwards...sooner, if you´re lucky, or later, if you´re not. And because of the sheer amount of plots, arcs, characters, stages, etc., you (2) should ideally reread the material afterwards to make *things click*, because unless you have a photographic memory and an innate talent to connect different sets of information retroactively, you still will continue in the blind.

May not be the most *consumer-friendly* way of writing a huge piece of epic fiction, but then again - there is sufficient forewarning out there re this aspect that anybody should be able to make a free decision whether to dedicate time to this cycle or not.

This post has been edited by Spiridon_Deannis: 31 December 2010 - 04:36 PM

[flea]

@Abalieno

Sometimes one should just STFU and try listening. You probably write more about each section than Amanda Rutter, and she is one of the featured bloggers. You might even look at how Bill Capossere responds with restraint. It seems to me that the point of the endeavor is to combine the joy of discovering a series as it unfolds, coupled with a reappraisal. There is a lightness to each responder's touch that I recommend you emulate.

You come off as pedantic and self-centered. Since a number of others react to you in a similar fashion, I would hope you would reflect on your posts and scale back.

Of course you have the right to post as you do, as long as the moderators there let you.

For others who read the blog, I suggest you skip Abalieno's posts, or at least do not respond.

[Hetan]

The whole point about this is that we are discussing Deadhouse Gates. At this stage of reading the series we were all noobs to the whole word.
Let's just chill out for now

PS.. I still thought Pust was a brilliant mad-man at this point. Confident in his own powers.

[amphibian]

Hetan, on 31 December 2010 - 08:40 PM, said:

PS.. I still thought Pust was a brilliant mad-man at this point. Confident in his own powers.

Up until near the end, when it really became clear that Pust directed the Soletaken/D'ivers to Tremorlor, I did too. After that, the plan was too sneaky good for me to believe that he didn't know what he was doing at every point of that plan.

Wait - maybe hooking up with Mogora was unexpected...

[waylander001]

amphibian, on 31 December 2010 - 11:53 PM, said:

Wait - maybe hooking up with Mogora was unexpected...

Absolutely Genius! - and one of the reasons I love Erikson's writing so much. Not Content with creating for us a devilishly enticing, wide-eyed stupid, lunatic-seeming, fiendish, mad/crazy-scientist-style character in Iskaral Pust .... he goes one further and stretches himself and his characters, planning (like only he can do?) for future books by continuously referencing spiders throughout DG to give his creation a life-long d'ivers companion and future wife ... whos is if anything a match for his whitty persona!

I say again PURE F***ING GENIUS!!!

.... errrr down, down Fanboy - GET ... BACK .... IN .... THERE!!!!

This post has been edited by waylander001: 01 January 2011 - 01:14 PM

[Steve Halter]

Abalieno, on 31 December 2010 - 03:26 PM, said:

Which leads to: in DG there's no sign that what Pust does is deliberate, the text wants very much the reader to believe the opposite. My own comments are pertinent to what is being discussed over there at the moment (DG). I give my interpretation of the character up to that point.

It's not like I'm commenting The Bonehunters without having read the book.

Speculation, interpretation and discussion are fine and wonderful things. TMBotF is long and complicated and well worth all of the previous. The problem (I think) that many have is that complex analysis based upon incomplete knowledge lends itself to a frailty of logical conclusions. Sometimes, the specific refutation of a point cannot be made at the current point in the text (for spoiler reasons). If a speculation is made and then someone mentions that it is later clarified, the polite method of discourse would be to acknowledge that point and revisit it when the reread reaches the point of clarification.
For a quick example, in the GotM discussion, you made quite a lot about the plan of Quick Ben being mentioned in the end of GotM and then being dropped. I mentioned in the GotM thread that we would be seeing more about the plan soon. In the DG reread, then I point out that a QB plan is discussed by Kalam and Fiddler in Chapter 1. I point out that this plan is (in my opinion) at least part of the plan QB alludes to in GotM.

[Puck]

Chapters 6 and 7 are up: http://www.tor.com/b...chapter-6-and-7

[BridgeBurner]

Puck, on 05 January 2011 - 06:20 PM, said:

Chapters 6 and 7 are up: http://www.tor.com/b...chapter-6-and-7

And you may be interested to know that SE just replied to this one too.

[Illuyankas]

OH GOD ROBIN55077 STOP SPOILING THE SERIES ALREADY

[Puck]

Some others as well.. There are spoilers up to DoD in the comments

This post has been edited by Puck: 09 January 2011 - 04:41 PM

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Puck, on 09 January 2011 - 04:38 PM, said:

Some others as well.. There are spoilers up to DoD in the comments

This is pretty annoying.
And then I wonder: Instead of trying to explain it away, which is making things worse, why not just edit the spoiler away a.s.a.p. and let the whole thing get lost in the flurry of posts.

[Steve Halter]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 10 January 2011 - 03:15 PM, said:

Puck, on 09 January 2011 - 04:38 PM, said:

Some others as well.. There are spoilers up to DoD in the comments

This is pretty annoying.
And then I wonder: Instead of trying to explain it away, which is making things worse, why not just edit the spoiler away a.s.a.p. and let the whole thing get lost in the flurry of posts.

A couple of things:
1) This is a reread and while (by convention) we have tried to avoid spoilers, officially the rule is anything goes.
2) There isn't really an involved moderator, so it is up to people to edit their own posts. Only the Tor people would have authority to actually change someone else's post. And you can only edit your own post if you are registered (gray vs. red). Since people log on at random intervals, this can take awhile.

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Steve Halter, on 10 January 2011 - 04:34 PM, said:

Spiridon_Deannis, on 10 January 2011 - 03:15 PM, said:

Puck, on 09 January 2011 - 04:38 PM, said:

Some others as well.. There are spoilers up to DoD in the comments

This is pretty annoying.
And then I wonder: Instead of trying to explain it away, which is making things worse, why not just edit the spoiler away a.s.a.p. and let the whole thing get lost in the flurry of posts.

A couple of things:
1) This is a reread and while (by convention) we have tried to avoid spoilers, officially the rule is anything goes.
2) There isn't really an involved moderator, so it is up to people to edit their own posts. Only the Tor people would have authority to actually change someone else's post. And you can only edit your own post if you are registered (gray vs. red). Since people log on at random intervals, this can take awhile.

SH, that is pretty clear & there are *risks* in this type of reread and shit will always happen - but damn, there is spoilers, and there is S!P!O!I!L!E!R!S!. And this week we had some of the latter & pretty much coming out of some wilder tangents. But as you said, it is pretty much *read at your own risk*

[Use Of Weapons]

It's weird though. Despite the spoiler warnings, most people have been reticent about spoilers, for what I can only imagine to be Amanda's benefit, which naturally accrues to other newbie readers also.

I would have said to anyone reading along for the first time, who isn't Amanda: don't read the comments, just read the posts and Amanda and Bill's responses. Come back and read the comments after having caught up. I think there are several newbie readers who have come to the same conclusion.

[Steve Halter]

jitsukerr, on 10 January 2011 - 05:15 PM, said:

It's weird though. Despite the spoiler warnings, most people have been reticent about spoilers, for what I can only imagine to be Amanda's benefit, which naturally accrues to other newbie readers also.

I would have said to anyone reading along for the first time, who isn't Amanda: don't read the comments, just read the posts and Amanda and Bill's responses. Come back and read the comments after having caught up. I think there are several newbie readers who have come to the same conclusion.

The spoiler reticence is for any newbie. Amanda is our placeholder newbie, lol. Amanda has actually said she doesn't mind spoilers. I think we are all having a good time hearing her first impressions, though.
For the most part, the reread is remarkably spoiler free. Mostly the spoilers are marked or abstract enough not to really be spoilers. There are a few things scattered about such that if you are really a newbie and don't want any spoilers at all, it probably isn't quite safe.
On the other hand, I've seen that the threads have helped people who are reading along at the same pace or at least just starting out. As always, people have to decide themselves.