[Puck]

I mostly can't decide whether to be amused or to want to bang my head against the wall - my sentiments go back and forth between the two options. Sometimes it's just way too amusing to quit reading, plus SE chimes in here and there, which is cool, as amphibian already pointed out.

Pity that this certain person's posts are way to elaborate to be considered a troll.

[Hetan]

I've cooled down a bit and decided on a course of action to save myself from wanting to gouge out my eyes with a fork.
I've said my piece and I promise I will not say any more to anyone about this subject.

I am looking forward to the next chapter reviews however and as Tor are not very quick at putting the links up, if someone finds the next section on their site (which I find extraordinarily difficult to navigate around for some reason), please would you post the link here for us all to see? Thanks very much.

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Puck, on 29 December 2010 - 10:41 PM, said:

I mostly can't decide whether to be amused or to want to bang my head against the wall - my sentiments go back and forth between the two options. Sometimes it's just way too amusing to quit reading, plus SE chimes in here and there, which is cool, as amphibian already pointed out.

Pity that this certain person's posts are way to elaborate to be considered a troll.

Well, his long stuff is pretty much unreadable. I mean, literally - unreadable ! I just mind the callouses from the neverending scrolling to bypass the drivel. The short stuff actually may elicit some sort of reaction.

I do assume that, by the time this reread reaches the end of HoC, this circus will be over...after all, that gentleman will never read beyond that.

Isn´t it ?

Please...- ISN´T IT ?

[Illuyankas]

OK, I went and read the comments from the DG Chapter 4 and 5 entry, and why exactly won't he read past HOC? Because if you're reading this, MYSTERY MAN, it better be a damn good reason to avoid you coming across as more of a gargantuan idiot.

[amphibian]

Puck, on 29 December 2010 - 10:41 PM, said:

Pity that this certain person's posts are way to elaborate to be considered a troll.

He's not a troll. He's an enormous fan of Erikson and the four books he's read. That is readily apparent. It's just that he is exceedingly bad at not pissing people off with his normal-to-him behavior and words. I would usually consider it a case of "hitting the forum hot", in which there's always an adjustment period when you enter into a new discussion group, but it is still happening here, it is happening there etc. There is some vibe of reveling in the antipathy directed his way too.

But don't let it ruin your re-read experience. There are quite a few commentators who aren't native to this site already (and some who have since joined this place) that are discussing the points very well and modifying their own views as they go along with the books or interact with the community. Tektonica, in particular, seems to have taken the Malazan experience and run with it all the way to the fifth or sixth book in a couple months.

[Puck]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 29 December 2010 - 10:49 PM, said:

Well, his long stuff is pretty much unreadable. I mean, literally - unreadable ! I just mind the callouses from the neverending scrolling to bypass the drivel. The short stuff actually may elicit some sort of reaction.

That's what I call the amusing stuff. I've fought my way through his long rants for some time but had to give up. He's not stupid, and some of the observations I can see as valid, but somehow he's got a talent for making it unreadable to such an extent that one looses all motivation to pick out the occasional sane statement.

Spiridon_Deannis, on 29 December 2010 - 10:49 PM, said:

I do assume that, by the time this reread reaches the end of HoC, this circus will be over...after all, that gentleman will never read beyond that.

Isn´t it ?

Please...- ISN´T IT ?

Hope dies last

amphibian, on 29 December 2010 - 11:02 PM, said:

He's not a troll. He's an enormous fan of Erikson and the four books he's read. That is readily apparent. It's just that he is exceedingly bad at not pissing people off with his normal-to-him behavior and words. I would usually consider it a case of "hitting the forum hot", in which there's always an adjustment period when you enter into a new discussion group, but it is still happening here, it is happening there etc. There is some vibe of reveling in the antipathy directed his way too.

I was more joking than anything else with the troll part. He can't be one considering how much of a fanboy leeks through his writing. I initially thought this would ebb after some time, but it DOESN'T! But that's not the most jarring point, for me at least. The point that makes me want to stuff a cusser in his mouth is the stubborn resistence to listen to what people say, even after SE himself told him more or less politely to stuff it.
At the same time these very things are what makes all of it pure comedy.

amphibian, on 29 December 2010 - 11:02 PM, said:

But don't let it ruin your re-read experience. There are quite a few commentators who aren't native to this site already (and some who have since joined this place) that are discussing the points very well and modifying their own views as they go along with the books or interact with the community. Tektonica, in particular, seems to have taken the Malazan experience and run with it all the way to the fifth or sixth book in a couple months.

Ha, it needs more than this to ruin anything malazan for me. I enjoy reading what all the other people discuss [like, say, the demon in ch. 5, I'd have never thought of Moby myself]. Likewise, Taitastigon and me amuse ourselves by discussing this very topic on anotehr board and so on. This re-read is really evolving into something really enjoyable.

[waylander001]

I do with him like I do with any other boring, repetitive, obsessive fool I come across - ignore.

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Puck, on 29 December 2010 - 11:52 PM, said:

Spiridon_Deannis, on 29 December 2010 - 10:49 PM, said:

Well, his long stuff is pretty much unreadable. I mean, literally - unreadable ! I just mind the callouses from the neverending scrolling to bypass the drivel. The short stuff actually may elicit some sort of reaction.

That's what I call the amusing stuff. I've fought my way through his long rants for some time but had to give up. He's not stupid, and some of the observations I can see as valid, but somehow he's got a talent for making it unreadable to such an extent that one looses all motivation to pick out the occasional sane statement.

Spiridon_Deannis, on 29 December 2010 - 10:49 PM, said:

I do assume that, by the time this reread reaches the end of HoC, this circus will be over...after all, that gentleman will never read beyond that.

Isn´t it ?

Please...- ISN´T IT ?

Hope dies last

amphibian, on 29 December 2010 - 11:02 PM, said:

He's not a troll. He's an enormous fan of Erikson and the four books he's read. That is readily apparent. It's just that he is exceedingly bad at not pissing people off with his normal-to-him behavior and words. I would usually consider it a case of "hitting the forum hot", in which there's always an adjustment period when you enter into a new discussion group, but it is still happening here, it is happening there etc. There is some vibe of reveling in the antipathy directed his way too.

I was more joking than anything else with the troll part. He can't be one considering how much of a fanboy leeks through his writing. I initially thought this would ebb after some time, but it DOESN'T! But that's not the most jarring point, for me at least. The point that makes me want to stuff a cusser in his mouth is the stubborn resistence to listen to what people say, even after SE himself told him more or less politely to stuff it.
At the same time these very things are what makes all of it pure comedy.

amphibian, on 29 December 2010 - 11:02 PM, said:

But don't let it ruin your re-read experience. There are quite a few commentators who aren't native to this site already (and some who have since joined this place) that are discussing the points very well and modifying their own views as they go along with the books or interact with the community. Tektonica, in particular, seems to have taken the Malazan experience and run with it all the way to the fifth or sixth book in a couple months.

Ha, it needs more than this to ruin anything malazan for me. I enjoy reading what all the other people discuss [like, say, the demon in ch. 5, I'd have never thought of Moby myself]. Likewise, Taitastigon and me amuse ourselves by discussing this very topic on anotehr board and so on. This re-read is really evolving into something really enjoyable.

Well, bad news. *He* seems to be changing tactics. *He* has started doing short posts now. *He* has completely neutralized my defensive scrolling strategy. DAMN ! Back to the drawing board.

On another note: This TOR reread is on a pretty bumpy road. No installment this week so far. Considering the volumes to be covered and the complexity of the story, this whole thing should take us well into..what ?...2014...? Not that I mind, but it´s kinda...scary...- they might even be able to add Forge of Darkness plus follow-up to that list without prejudice..

[Hetan]

It's the holiday season people. Everyone has a real life so I think they surely can be forgiven for taking some time out. Be patient, it's worth it

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Hetan, on 30 December 2010 - 03:48 PM, said:

It's the holiday season people. Everyone has a real life so I think they surely can be forgiven for taking some time out. Be patient, it's worth it

No disagreement there.
But a couple of words from the show-runners like *Y´all - we´ll be late by x days" would suffice. Simply silence is annoying.
Well, in any case, we are running a *best one-liners from Ch. 6&7* contest over in the Ch. 4&5 thread...

EDIT: OK, word is in. It´s a tor.com issue.

This post has been edited by Spiridon_Deannis: 31 December 2010 - 02:42 AM

[Abalieno]

Illuyankas, on 29 December 2010 - 11:01 PM, said:

OK, I went and read the comments from the DG Chapter 4 and 5 entry, and why exactly won't he read past HOC? Because if you're reading this, MYSTERY MAN, it better be a damn good reason to avoid you coming across as more of a gargantuan idiot.

http://www.tor.com/b...hapter-1#151447

^
|

I have explained my motives over and over, but everyone asks without wanting to hear the answer. It seems a rhetorical question, so I guess it's silly that I continue to actually answer it.

P.S.
Still can't wrap my head around why people want a say about what *I* decide to read and when. I'm not pretending to decide what YOU read and when.

This post has been edited by Abalieno: 31 December 2010 - 01:59 PM

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Abalieno, on 31 December 2010 - 01:49 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on 29 December 2010 - 11:01 PM, said:

OK, I went and read the comments from the DG Chapter 4 and 5 entry, and why exactly won't he read past HOC? Because if you're reading this, MYSTERY MAN, it better be a damn good reason to avoid you coming across as more of a gargantuan idiot.

http://www.tor.com/b...hapter-1#151447

I have explained my motives over and over, but everyone asks without wanting to hear the answer. It seems a rhetorical question, so I guess it's silly that I continue to actually answer it.

P.S.
Still can't wrap my head around why people want a say about what *I* decide to read and when. I'm not pretending to decide what YOU read and when.

Kiddo, you can read *what and when* anytime you want. But *when* you discuss the *what* and start speculating on *it* through pages and neverending pages of text without even having read *it*, there will be feedback that you may or - more likely - may not like. If you are too dense to get that very simple concept that has been put to you over and over again, including by the author himself, then gosh...it´s gonna be a rough, misunderstood life for you, I guess.

Happy New Year´s, anyway ! May 2011 grace you with true enlightenment...!

This post has been edited by Spiridon_Deannis: 31 December 2010 - 02:02 PM

[amphibian]

Abalieno, on 31 December 2010 - 01:49 PM, said:

P.S.
Still can't wrap my head around why people want a say about what *I* decide to read and when. I'm not pretending to decide what YOU read and when.

I don't give a crap what you read or when. You set your own pace and that's fine.

However, you have a propensity to engage in analysis of Erikson's purposes within the entire series, to speculate about character progression and intentions when the books that disprove your usually wrong speculations are readily available through dozens of avenues, hound Erikson for revisions and redrafts and you seem to really, really like doing all of this in places of public discussion of the series as a whole.

It's one thing if you've read all the books and have a different take on them. It's entirely another when you blither on, actively disrupt other people's enjoyment of discussion and the books and write as if authoritatively speaking for the entire series. You have been shown to be wrong so often that any authority you have is gone or so nearly gone that it does not matter.

I apologize for snapping at you here, but you are receiving this kind of treatment in several different places. This should tell you that there is something that you are indeed doing wrong and that fixing that would probably lead to a much more chill time for all.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 31 December 2010 - 02:09 PM

[Abalieno]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 31 December 2010 - 01:59 PM, said:

Kiddo, you can read *what and when* anytime you want. But *when* you discuss the *what* and start speculating on *it*

When only DG was out weren't all readers speculating on similar topics? Aren't you all speculating on The Crippled God right now?

Is it not natural guessing and interpreting what you read, as you read it? Should one restrain to discuss anything till it's completely done?

Should all opinions and speculations be banished about the new Sanderson series for the next 20 years since only the first book is out yet? Wasn't speculation and commentary what fueled the Wheel of Time success all these years since it's quite obvious that the series isn't yet done but its fans surely haven't restrained from commenting all these years?

Didn't people try to figure out Lost all the while and wasn't that kind of speculation exactly what made the show popular?

[amphibian]

Abalieno, on 31 December 2010 - 02:14 PM, said:

Is it not natural guessing and interpreting what you read, as you read it? Should one restrain to discuss anything till it's completely done?

You may be speculating in your head. What you are actually writing in the comments over there is not purely innocent speculation, though.

Quote

They even say I ignore what everyone else says, which strikes me as funny as I pay a lot of attention about what everyone writes and I do enjoy engaging with active discussions (like in the Pust case, where I've explained the motivations why I interpret the character a certain way, and asked others to explain their reasons why they interpret him differently, but I didn't get any, if not one case of someone else agreeing with me. See #88).

No. I am not saying that you ignore what everyone else says. I am saying that you are not processing the criticism directed your way. It's one thing to shrug off things like "Go away" or "You stink". It's another when people start engaging in specific and lengthy criticisms of things you say and do.

You also received a lengthy response/analysis as to why Iskaral Pust has not lost control of his marbles or babbling in my response to you at #84. It happens to be a view that passes muster with many others here. But you ignored or missed that.

I also wanted to say that I believe that Beneth beats Felisin partly because he's lost her and partly because it is within the nature of humans who have been lashed verbally or physically (as Beneth was by the Malazan commander) to lash out at their inferiors. Beneth in particular is prone to this because he perpetuates a system of abuse and psychological and physical control on both his personal chattels and the slaves within the mines. You didn't quite go deep enough for my own tastes.

I would say few people want you to leave and never come back. Or to make a stink about that departure. All I ask for is that you actually pay attention to what people say to you and adjust in response.

Bend a little. Don't break.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 31 December 2010 - 02:52 PM

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Abalieno, on 31 December 2010 - 02:14 PM, said:

Spiridon_Deannis, on 31 December 2010 - 01:59 PM, said:

Kiddo, you can read *what and when* anytime you want. But *when* you discuss the *what* and start speculating on *it*

When only DG was out weren't all readers speculating on similar topics? Aren't you all speculating on The Crippled God right now?

Is it not natural guessing and interpreting what you read, as you read it? Should one restrain to discuss anything till it's completely done?

Should all opinions and speculations be banished about the new Sanderson series for the next 20 years since only the first book is out yet? Wasn't speculation and commentary what fueled the Wheel of Time success all these years since it's quite obvious that the series isn't yet done but its fans surely haven't restrained from commenting all these years?

Didn't people try to figure out Lost all the while and wasn't that kind of speculation exactly what made the show popular?

These questions of yours are all so very niiiice...you would have done really, reeaally well some 2500 years ago in Athens.

Pity they don´t apply to your case, so I´ll make it short: The base material has been available - instead of just reading it, you have spent your time *speculating* on its entirety, having read only 40% of it - and this at great, verborrhagic length that borders on grandstanding. Most of these *speculations* are off the mark - a problem that would not exist if you had just read the base material.

One thing is speculating on events that have not been published yet. Another thing is simply not doing the most basic of homeworks and prefering to blather on the cheap instead of reading what has already been made available.

So if you want to continue playing the misunderstood, literary martyr, knock yourself out !
Just get off your lazy butt and read ! the ! damn ! thing ! instead of waffling around.

[amphibian]

Spiridon_Deannis, on 31 December 2010 - 02:55 PM, said:

Post

He's been reading other stuff - not Malazan. Presumably, real life intruded at some point too. That's perfectly fine. His time, his choices.

Be fair.

And support the site through the affiliate links!

This post has been edited by amphibian: 31 December 2010 - 03:07 PM

[Spiridon_Deannis]

amphibian, on 31 December 2010 - 03:06 PM, said:

Spiridon_Deannis, on 31 December 2010 - 02:55 PM, said:

Post

He's been reading other stuff - not Malazan. Presumably, real life intruded at some point too. That's perfectly fine. His time, his choices.

Be fair.

And support the site through the affiliate links!

Sorry, but no agree on that one.
We all have our choices. If he has his priorities, that´s fine. But the behavior should reflect that. It doesn´t. IMHO, it is unfair to the people that HAVE done the work to read through the last 4500+ pages and also have other stuff to do, real life, etc.

Besides that, you´re the good cop, I´m the bad one.

*And support the site through the affiliate links!*

Huh...? What do you mean ? *headscratching*

[Abalieno]

amphibian, on 31 December 2010 - 02:52 PM, said:

You also received a lengthy response/analysis as to why Iskaral Pust has not lost control of his marbles or babbling in my response to you at #84. It happens to be a view that passes muster with many others here. But you ignored or missed that.

Yes, you basically say that what Pust does is deliberate, while I think it's not.

Which leads to: in DG there's no sign that what Pust does is deliberate, the text wants very much the reader to believe the opposite. My own comments are pertinent to what is being discussed over there at the moment (DG). I give my interpretation of the character up to that point.

It's not like I'm commenting The Bonehunters without having read the book.

You say Pust behaves that way for different reasons. Fine. In DG there seem to be no trace of that. So we'll (you'll) discuss that particular aspect again whenever it comes up.

I'm not "accepting" your point of view merely because I'm discussing DG. The discussion for me evolves as the read goes further. I've read the first four books, but I still discuss what's at hand, and not even the totality of what I already read. For example what I wrote about Felisin is solely about DG.

It's more important from my point of view to make every step meaningful than just seeing where it's headed. So for me it's essential to interpret Pust the way it is described right now, and examine/reconsider further developments whenever they'll arrive. It happens all the time in the series that you learn something that makes you reconsider everything. Why you want to kill this effect?

[amphibian]

Abalieno, on 31 December 2010 - 03:26 PM, said:

Yes, you basically say that what Pust does is deliberate, while I think it's not.

Which leads to: in DG there's no sign that what Pust does is deliberate, the text wants very much the reader to believe the opposite.

The following will be spoilered, even though it is not a critical plot point and restricted to DG alone.

Spoiler

What in the name of the nine hells leads you to conclude that Pust does everything he does without control or without purpose?

He is set one overarching goal in DG: to lead the Soletaken and D'ivers seeking the Path of Hands astray. He performs that job so perfectly that only a handful of in-book people realize that he's even done it. Icarium, Mappo, Cotillon's former vessel, Fiddler, the Whirlwind and the Rauraku Desert were all incorporated willingly, unwillingly, knowingly or unknowingly into the plan to lead the Soletaken and D'ivers elsewhere. These are not easy people or things to push around or manipulate - yet he accomplished that.

You interpret his discourse to be chaotic. It is not. It is the thought process of a very smart (and gleefully perverse in a mostly harmless way) man that is almost completely unfiltered and spoken aloud. Pust does not lie. He almost always picks and chooses exactly what to say in order to confound, provoke, entice, inform and amuse the listener. The reason why it works is because he has so thoroughly honed his observation and communication skills that he knows the effect of his words and how best to employ them. Pust takes delight in their initial confusion. He saves their asses when the time is right.

The reason why I so firmly believe all of this is because Iskaral Pust works for Shadowthrone. What do you know of Shadowthrone and Cotillon from the first two books? That they lay complicated plans with incredibly lofty goals, put the right people in the right positions, tell them what they need to know and trust them to make the right choices to lead to the best outcomes for themselves - which usually means the best outcomes for Shadowthrone and Cotillon also.

In the first two books, have Shadowthrone and Cotillon failed?