[Mentalist]

in regards to who the ex-priest of Fener could be, iirc, in MoI we learn that the last destriant before Karnadas was present at the Chaining, where he died, and then Heboric was expelled before he could assume the title.

Edit: I wonder if this also means that Fener will die in tCG?

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 02 July 2010 - 10:44 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Mentalist, on 02 July 2010 - 10:43 PM, said:

in regards to who the ex-priest of Fener could be, iirc, in MoI we learn that the last destriant before Karnadas was present at the Chaining, where he died, and then Heboric was expelled before he could assume the title.

Edit: I wonder if this also means that Fener will die in tCG?

Why would seeing an ex-priest of his mean he would die? I wouldn't be surprised if he did, but I'm curious how you made the connection.

[Midnight]

It was the Mortal Sword of Fener who died at the Chaining. The Destriant was Ipshank who vanished in Stratem along with Manask (who may or may not be related to Fener). My money's on the priest being Ipshank.

[The Seguleh 46th]

Midnight, on 03 July 2010 - 12:27 AM, said:

It was the Mortal Sword of Fener who died at the Chaining. The Destriant was Ipshank who vanished in Stratem along with Manask (who may or may not be related to Fener). My money's on the priest being Ipshank.

Now i'm confused a wee bit. I thought the Grey/Gray Swords hiearchy of MOI was the MS/SA/DES of Fener? Sigh....

[Mentalist]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 03 July 2010 - 12:26 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 02 July 2010 - 10:43 PM, said:

in regards to who the ex-priest of Fener could be, iirc, in MoI we learn that the last destriant before Karnadas was present at the Chaining, where he died, and then Heboric was expelled before he could assume the title.

Edit: I wonder if this also means that Fener will die in tCG?

Why would seeing an ex-priest of his mean he would die? I wouldn't be surprised if he did, but I'm curious how you made the connection.

because tatoos are described as "faded". as in, the God the priest served is gone.

note that in MoI, despite Fener being absent from his warren, the punishment of Rath'Fener, invoked in his name is still carried out. Meaning, as long as the Ascendant lives, his power can be used by his followers.

[T'renn]

Quote

It was the Mortal Sword of Fener who died at the Chaining. The Destriant was Ipshank who vanished in Stratem along with Manask (who may or may not be related to Fener). My money's on the priest being Ipshank.

Apart from the fact that Noto Boil tells us in the Bonehunters that they also served under Greymane and died

[MTS]

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on 03 July 2010 - 09:44 PM, said:

Quote

It was the Mortal Sword of Fener who died at the Chaining. The Destriant was Ipshank who vanished in Stratem along with Manask (who may or may not be related to Fener). My money's on the priest being Ipshank.

Apart from the fact that Noto Boil tells us in the Bonehunters that they also served under Greymane and died

Well, if we want to split hairs, it has also been said that Greymane died as well (although not by Boil that I can see). Besides, since when has being dead stopped anyone in this series from going walkabout?

The actual quote:

Quote

‘The principal source of their delight at my joining the ranks derived from my skills as a healer. Anyway
my first campaign was in Korel, the Theftian Campaigns, where I was fortunate to acquire further tutelage
from a healer who would later become infamous. Ipshank.’
‘Truly?’
‘Indeed, none other. And yes, I met Manask as well. It must be said – and you, High Fist, will
comprehend more than most the necessity of this – it must be said, both Ipshank and Manask remained
loyal to Greymane... to the last. Well, as far as I knew, that is – I was healer to a full legion by then, and
we were sent to Genabackis. In due course—’

This post has been edited by MTS: 03 July 2010 - 10:45 PM

[Midnight]

Thanks for finding the exact quote MTS . I was also going to point out that the fate of Manask and Ipshank is ambiguous at best, it's never clearly stated (even by Boil) that they died.

[T'renn]

But the point is, Greymane himself said he was the only one to survive in RotCG

Greymane is said to have been killed on theft, but that was in a city that hadn't participated. (Blood Follows by the way, in the City of Moll)

[Tapper]

Thanks for posting Hetan

Most if not all of what I thought has been mentioned here already... but I do think the Lady is a manifestation of Killy, Burn or maybe Mael's daughter rather than an previously unknown local goddess - for one, in all the continents we've seen so far (apart from Lether) there seems to be very few local additions to the pantheon powerful enough to be true gods/ ascendants (7C's whirlwind goddess exempted, but the Dal Honese tribe gods for example seem mostly weird oddities rather than full blown gods).

This post has been edited by Tapper: 04 July 2010 - 11:42 AM

[Tsundoku]

*coughwickanlandspiritsandotherwarlockstuffcough*

[Midnight]

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on 04 July 2010 - 11:40 AM, said:

But the point is, Greymane himself said he was the only one to survive in RotCG

Greymane is said to have been killed on theft, but that was in a city that hadn't participated. (Blood Follows by the way, in the City of Moll)

It could be that Greymane believes everyone else to be dead. If Ipshank vanished, it would be easy to draw the conclusion that he's dead, so perhaps that's what Greymane did.

[MTS]

These are two other relevant quotes on that score:

ROTCG said:

The man laughed. ‘Good. Then I’ll tell you. I’m a renegade because I tried to make peace, Kyle. Strike an accord. For that I enraged the Korelans and was denounced by Malazan command. Me ‘n’ a handful of others.’ The big man glanced to Kyle, his pale ice-blue eyes bright in the gathering dawn. ‘And do you know why of all of them I alone survived the hunt that followed?’

MOI said:

The last Boar-cloaked Destriant was Ipshank of Korelri, who vanished during
the Last Flight of Manask on the Stratem Icefields.

The key phrase is that Ipshank vanished - it is never noted he died. Greymane is simply assuming that, because really what else would he assume?

[The Seguleh 46th]

MTS, on 05 July 2010 - 01:52 AM, said:

These are two other relevant quotes on that score:

ROTCG said:

The man laughed. 'Good. Then I'll tell you. I'm a renegade because I tried to make peace, Kyle. Strike an accord. For that I enraged the Korelans and was denounced by Malazan command. Me 'n' a handful of others.' The big man glanced to Kyle, his pale ice-blue eyes bright in the gathering dawn. 'And do you know why of all of them I alone survived the hunt that followed?'

MOI said:

The last Boar-cloaked Destriant was Ipshank of Korelri, who vanished during
the Last Flight of Manask on the Stratem Icefields.

The key phrase is that Ipshank vanished - it is never noted he died. Greymane is simply assuming that, because really what else would he assume?

So what were the Grey Sword dudes then in Capustan? Replacement Mortal Sword, Destriant, and Shield Anvil for Fener? Just wondering, as i'm confused a bit here. Maybe "Boar-Cloaked" as meaning tattooed/officially sanctified or something else? Huh!

This post has been edited by The Seguleh 46th: 05 July 2010 - 02:18 PM

[D'rek]

The Seguleh 46th, on 05 July 2010 - 02:16 PM, said:

MTS, on 05 July 2010 - 01:52 AM, said:

These are two other relevant quotes on that score:

ROTCG said:

The man laughed. 'Good. Then I'll tell you. I'm a renegade because I tried to make peace, Kyle. Strike an accord. For that I enraged the Korelans and was denounced by Malazan command. Me 'n' a handful of others.' The big man glanced to Kyle, his pale ice-blue eyes bright in the gathering dawn. 'And do you know why of all of them I alone survived the hunt that followed?'

MOI said:

The last Boar-cloaked Destriant was Ipshank of Korelri, who vanished during
the Last Flight of Manask on the Stratem Icefields.

The key phrase is that Ipshank vanished - it is never noted he died. Greymane is simply assuming that, because really what else would he assume?

So what were the Grey Sword dudes then in Capustan? Replacement Mortal Sword, Destriant, and Shield Anvil for Fener? Just wondering, as i'm confused a bit here. Maybe "Boar-Cloaked" as meaning tattooed/officially sanctified or something else? Huh!

The MS/D/SA titles are used by the churches/chapters of Fener (and other gods) as titles and ranks. Any major chapter of Fener would probably have a Destriant in charge. If there's military forces involved, there'd be a MS too. Hence why Rath'Fener said in MoI "My rank is as Destriant!" - he means that he's the Destriant of the Capustan chapter of Fener's religion. But all those titles are just mortal-decided appointments because those ranks stopped being used much long ago. When the need is there, though, Fener picks a genuine Des, MS and/or SA who really does have the heightened connection with their god that the mortal-appointed Destriants and such aspire to. Karnadas was the real deal, benefited with power from Fener and in a sort of constant-prayer-pseudo-communication with Fener. Brukhalian and Itkovian just about certainly were the real deal as well, as Brukhalian's longevity and flaming sword, and Itkovian's ability to embrace lots of souls, evince. If QB is to be believed, Ipshank was the real-deal-Destriant of Fener long ago, and supposedly Heboric was likely to be the next afterwards.

It's the same deal for the Wolves of Winter. Toc was their real-deal Mortal Sword, though now he seems to be something else - Herald of Death than Herald of War. The captain and recruit who became SA and Destriant seem to have been the real deal and that makes sense since they were anointed right at the start of the Wolves' reunion. The Grey Helms, on the other hand, don't really have any evidence of being the real deal - they could very well just be using those titles in the same fashion as the Grey Swords, and presumably if there's a group of the Grey Shields out there they'll also be lead by a Mortal Sword, Destriant and Shield Anvil.

Capiche?

(Someone will surely want to point out here that there are 2 Wolves, but neither the Swords nor the Helms ever claim to worship them seperately)

[The Seguleh 46th]

D, on 05 July 2010 - 02:41 PM, said:

The Seguleh 46th, on 05 July 2010 - 02:16 PM, said:

MTS, on 05 July 2010 - 01:52 AM, said:

These are two other relevant quotes on that score:

ROTCG said:

The man laughed. 'Good. Then I'll tell you. I'm a renegade because I tried to make peace, Kyle. Strike an accord. For that I enraged the Korelans and was denounced by Malazan command. Me 'n' a handful of others.' The big man glanced to Kyle, his pale ice-blue eyes bright in the gathering dawn. 'And do you know why of all of them I alone survived the hunt that followed?'

MOI said:

The last Boar-cloaked Destriant was Ipshank of Korelri, who vanished during
the Last Flight of Manask on the Stratem Icefields.

The key phrase is that Ipshank vanished - it is never noted he died. Greymane is simply assuming that, because really what else would he assume?

So what were the Grey Sword dudes then in Capustan? Replacement Mortal Sword, Destriant, and Shield Anvil for Fener? Just wondering, as i'm confused a bit here. Maybe "Boar-Cloaked" as meaning tattooed/officially sanctified or something else? Huh!

The MS/D/SA titles are used by the churches/chapters of Fener (and other gods) as titles and ranks. Any major chapter of Fener would probably have a Destriant in charge. If there's military forces involved, there'd be a MS too. Hence why Rath'Fener said in MoI "My rank is as Destriant!" - he means that he's the Destriant of the Capustan chapter of Fener's religion. But all those titles are just mortal-decided appointments because those ranks stopped being used much long ago. When the need is there, though, Fener picks a genuine Des, MS and/or SA who really does have the heightened connection with their god that the mortal-appointed Destriants and such aspire to. Karnadas was the real deal, benefited with power from Fener and in a sort of constant-prayer-pseudo-communication with Fener. Brukhalian and Itkovian just about certainly were the real deal as well, as Brukhalian's longevity and flaming sword, and Itkovian's ability to embrace lots of souls, evince. If QB is to be believed, Ipshank was the real-deal-Destriant of Fener long ago, and supposedly Heboric was likely to be the next afterwards.

It's the same deal for the Wolves of Winter. Toc was their real-deal Mortal Sword, though now he seems to be something else - Herald of Death than Herald of War. The captain and recruit who became SA and Destriant seem to have been the real deal and that makes sense since they were anointed right at the start of the Wolves' reunion. The Grey Helms, on the other hand, don't really have any evidence of being the real deal - they could very well just be using those titles in the same fashion as the Grey Swords, and presumably if there's a group of the Grey Shields out there they'll also be lead by a Mortal Sword, Destriant and Shield Anvil.

Capiche?

(Someone will surely want to point out here that there are 2 Wolves, but neither the Swords nor the Helms ever claim to worship them seperately)

Yes it does clear alot of things up. Thanks D'rek! I always blithely assumed that the 3 titles denoted official sanctioning via their respective Gods. Keep forgetting that titles can and do change, seemingly according to how the big game gets played out.

[Abyss]

re big goddess - DoD establishes that Kila is a shapeshifter, tho i like the notion that it's one of Mael's daughters.

re Manask and Ipshank - good possibilities there.

re Destriants - in theory any god could have as many as they want tho that opens up a level of vulnerability or division of power as well. I always figured the Grey Helms were always Wolf worshippers waiting for their Gods to return, while the Grey Swords were always a Fener cult.


And with the qualifier that this is a limited sample, i agree that ICE's writing seems to have improved. Not that i was troubled by it back in RCG or NoK, but even so, nice to see.

[Flawed]

Reads nicely.

I would say that the Goddess although " Killa " sounding is most probably burn.

The whole aspect of dragging it over ground. the heat. The wall being created etc suggests this.

Also for those that have read all the books remember a certain sword that Greymaine had and the suggestion by other characters who his patron lady was. Coupled with the fact that he served on the wall…….

As to all the other points they are just suggestive at this point I think and things we would find out if we read and find out.

Oh and blatantly the crippled god falling in the beginning.

[Zendog13]

Haro!
Been a while eh?
Thanx for posting the teaser!
Add me in the "Burn" column and Manask = Ipshank theory.

[GingerBreadMan]

Flawed, on 28 July 2010 - 12:57 PM, said:

Reads nicely.

I would say that the Goddess although " Killa " sounding is most probably burn.

The whole aspect of dragging it over ground. the heat. The wall being created etc suggests this.

Also for those that have read all the books remember a certain sword that Greymaine had and the suggestion by other characters who his patron lady was. Coupled with the fact that he served on the wall…….

As to all the other points they are just suggestive at this point I think and things we would find out if we read and find out.

Oh and blatantly the crippled god falling in the beginning.

The problem with the Burn theory is the physical description

Repulsive, pale, mottled, dead fish etc..

All reeks of a sea god of some sort